Why does Irish butter taste better than most American butter, and what does that say about our food system? Author Austin Frerick, whose book exposes the money, power, and corruption un America's Food industry, joins the team for a conversation that starts with Kerrygold and pasture raised dairy and grows into a look at who really controls what we eat. They dig into meatpacking giants like JBS, how ethanol subsidies tilt the playing field, and the sudden beef imports. They also ask why Walmart and Cargill may be the most powerful names in food.
From there it's chicken and hog contracts, the push to break up meat industry monopolies with simple rules, and how immigrant and visa labor props up big processing plants. They also cover Costco, Amazon and Whole Foods, GLP1 drugs, and SNAP. The conversation ends on a hopeful note, with family farms and local food leading the way.
Check out this episode of the Prairie Farm Podcast to find out more!
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Austin (00:00.273) Yeah, I know. One time on a different video I had this the Catholic school and me, I had the best of Enya vinyl out and people just fucking destroyed me in the comments. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (00:08.268) yeah, yeah, yeah. Nicolas Lirio (00:11.278) No dude. No, no one would destroy you for for Dolly. She's the same. I one of my favorite things about her is like she did all these huge, great, amazing things. The amazing thing to me is that every person, whether they were a nobody or celebrity that met her, would like, I think I met an angel. You know, just consistent person on person. They she was an amazing person. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (00:11.742) Ha ha ha. Austin (00:16.742) No, I don't. Austin (00:31.227) That that week was one of the best of social media of just like all I did was just s Dolly shit. And like if you haven't done it yet, like I went to Dollywood from my bachelor party with my buddies. We just got really stoned. And it was like it's one of the best theme parks I've been to 'cause they don't gouge you. It's like you can get a corn dog for like two or three dollars. Like it's just the workers enjoy it. We're if you if you need a road trip or like a good, I really recommend it. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (00:41.832) Ha ha. Nicolas Lirio (00:41.854) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (00:53.47) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (00:58.568) Yeah, well I'll I'll keep that in mind. I got kids. Nicolas Lirio (00:58.926) That's awesome. All right. Well, Austin, whenever you're ready, your name, your title, and this is the Prairie Forum Podcast. Austin (01:07.855) Yeah, so I'm Austin Ferrick. I'm the author of the book Barons Money, Power, and the Corruption in America's Food Industry, and this is the Prairie Farms Podcast. Nicolas Lirio (01:17.656) Perfect. Austin, man, I like hanging out with you so much. We have started this podcast almost 45 minutes too late just because we've been hanging out. but I am sitting here dr drinking coffee, and I've been doing no carbs recently, as our listeners know. and so I had an Americano and I've been putting butter in that sucker, and then you whip it up with one of those little whippers, and I am I Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:17.716) Bingo. Austin (01:24.688) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:25.714) Yeah. It's a fun hang. Nicolas Lirio (01:45.442) We don't make that much money in our household, but there's one two things we splurge on Milwaukee Tools, which is a financially irresponsible thing to do, and Kerigold Butter. and so when you said, 'cause you got a new book coming out way down the line, but when you said that you cover Kerigold, I was like, I gotta know. Is it like is is does their branding match their farms? You know what I mean? Is it as good as it looks on their gold bar Keragold Irish butter? Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:55.24) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (02:11.915) You know, and and and and sometimes I miss my mortgage payment to make sure that I've got my Kerigold in the morning. So I I'm curious. Tell me about Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (02:16.387) Yeah. Austin (02:19.951) Yeah, so let me step back and first of all, I do cream top milk, which is kinda like a version of butter almost. I love it because like the way you put it on your coffee like the fat just like dances. But no, the whole Kerrygold thing started, so I've been very lucky the last basically the last two years I've been on the road, talking about barons and like, you know, I'm we don't have a ch we don't have children yet, so I can do it. So I mean that to me is I really do believe you have to see America to understand it. 'Cause like I have a very Iowa view of the food system and like Nicolas Lirio (02:24.393) yeah. Yeah, yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (02:29.732) man. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (02:46.695) Mm. Austin (02:49.841) You know, the way things go down like the Rio Grande in Texas is very different than like Montana. But then you also find like really cool things going on. And part of it is is like during COVID I really got into comedy podcast. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (02:52.349) Yeah. Austin (03:02.135) And what I love about it is that film T comedy special you see is actually the final thing that they workshop for like a year or two on the road. Like every little word they used is like finely tuned. And what I realized is like I kind of view these like a lot of these speaking things as kinda like that, is I'm working towards an idea, and what I realized, and I didn't expect this at all, is especially older Americans think the food system tastes awful, especially meat and dairy. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (03:10.096) yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (03:27.57) Mm. Austin (03:28.761) And just like my mom one of my mom's favorite sac snacks, I think there's an old Iowa thing, is she takes saltines and puts butter on it. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (03:35.803) Yeah, yeah, I remember people doing that. I I think I've even done that a few times in my life. Austin (03:39.721) yeah. And it was a it is, I mean it's a good I'm more of the ones where you take saltines, you put dill spread on it, whatever. Nicolas Lirio (03:39.949) Too easy, Kent. You're lobbing them here. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (03:48.976) Okay. I I used to yeah, I've done that too. I used to do peanut butter and and saltines a lot when I was a kid. Nicolas Lirio (03:49.293) Austin (03:53.734) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (03:53.964) Man, you guys growing up in these wealthy houses, I had knockoff saltines, low sodium, just that. And I would after school, I'd eat those. Austin (03:56.249) I don't Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (04:00.967) Whatever, whatever. You're a but you're a butter flavored oyster cracker guy and it shows. Austin (04:01.833) God. Nicolas Lirio (04:05.293) Yeah, well, maybe. Austin (04:06.789) That's funny. But I was at a conference and my mom was talking to this this dairy guy who's from Wisconsin about like her her butter doesn't spread like it used to. and he was explaining, yeah, it's because most of it's white, it's because it's most of our butter in America now comes from Bakersfield, California. This cow's on a feedlot eating ethanol byproducts, so it's very, you know, they're eating a lot of corn, so it's very fibrous, nothing's green, that's why it's white. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (04:29.457) Hmm. Yeah. Austin (04:34.723) And so we started talking you know, s we started talk I started talking to him about Kerrygold. And, you know, for context, Kerrygold is the second best selling butter now, branded butter in America. And it'll probably be number one in a year or two. Like it's but this guy ex there's a uptick right now in butter as people move to like lost you know, like real stuff, not processed fake stuff. But part of it he was saying is Kerrygold's driving this. It's like So much of this moment in America the American food system is is things just don't taste good. You know, I mean corners were cut where you're just and Kerrygold is it's not rocket science. Like the only difference between Irish butter and American butter is the production models. Like it's cows on grass versus industrial cows. And like what you put into an animal really impacts their taste. So I'm kinda this whole book is like these different solutions for the system. because I'm trying to like give people hope, but also like showing like it doesn't have to be this way. Like other countries do it and like Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (05:19.015) Yeah. Austin (05:29.113) In Ireland, like makes this phenomenal product, people love it. But here's the thing: Kerrygold is the butter our grandparents had. You know what I mean? Like that used to be the norm. Now it's a bougie thing. And you could still do pasture butter in America, but you're not getting subsidized like the Bakersfield cow. So like we can choose to make Kerrygold affordable and go back to what it used to be. And then the final thing on that is I was really lucky to I got a grant to go to Ireland this summer to kind of study it. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (05:35.485) Yeah. Yeah, very creamy, yeah. Nicolas Lirio (05:35.959) Hm. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (05:53.362) Mm-hmm. Austin (05:53.978) And the weirdest thing about it was weird and sad is how healthy rural Ireland is. Like it reminded me of Wisconsin in the 90s, where you just you saw children in small towns. Like, you know what I mean? Like running around and like these towns. There wasn't like like when you drive Iowa, you notice a difference between rural Iowa and West in the Des Moines suburbs. Like there's such a massive in Ireland, you didn't. It felt like the same. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (06:06.417) Yeah. Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (06:15.937) yeah. Austin (06:21.029) you know, between urban and rural I Ireland, it was all kind of the same. And it was just like and it really goes back to that like notion of the help the Goldschmidth hypothesis of like how you structure farms impacts everything. So like a community with a ton of family farms are just gonna be healthier in every sense of the way versus industrial farms where people are low age workers. So like that's the whole carry gold is just kind of using it as a way to tell you like basically argue to put animals back on the land. But showing that like look at Ireland did it and it's really successful. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (06:34.493) Yeah. Austin (06:50.993) This isn't crazy. What we have now is crazy. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (06:51.208) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (06:53.697) So I I the free market defenders, which I would con usually I am on that side where I'm kinda defending free market, would say, Okay, this is great, this is exactly what we want. We want this competition. now that the consumers are saying this is what we want, the six companies that provide all of the food in the United States will start moving in that direction. You think that'll actually happen? Austin (07:20.165) No. f the first question I ask any someone who identifies as a free market person is do you support ethanol? And if and if they do, it's like you don't believe in the free market. Like it's I it's not the most kosher phrase to use, but I think co corn is the most is the biggest welfare clean in the food system. it's we're putting we are we we pick favorites right now. And it's like people doing it this other way are not playing on a level playing field. Like I'd be more in support of it if if they're if the costs were the same. Nicolas Lirio (07:27.306) Yeah, yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (07:27.975) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (07:38.153) yeah. Austin (07:50.172) But they're not. You know, like that industrial in a farm in Bakersfield, the feed is heavily subsidized. It's undocumented weight labor, which you can't compete against. there's so many environmental things looking the other way. Like, I mean, these things are manure factories too, and that's something I didn't really appreciate. Is like the average one has about two thousand cows on it. Cows defecate way more than us. One of those operations alone, of like two thousand cows, does as much manure in a day as the city of Hartford, Connecticut. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (08:05.885) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (08:17.949) Holy cow. Austin (08:19.089) Yeah, and it's just like no city like would you know I mean, no city would have this much manure just it's and think keep keep in mind here this region too, it's very dry. So a lot of that manure just gets err you know, gets put up up into the air. It it's like not sorry. no, you go ahead. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (08:32.338) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (08:32.993) Yeah. And it I mean No, no, no, please continue. I was just gonna say it's not like it it can ruin communities just from the fact of like no one's gonna move there 'cause it smells half of the half the year and and it it it's not a good place. And and I would say like free market fundamental I'm not like a fundamentalist, you know, I don't like worship economics, but I just th I I would also argue alongside of you that ethanol is the product of the government driving the market, which as we can tell, now that it's matured, I think it did give like a 20, 30 year boost. but large corporations are really good at gathering government money. They're so good at it. And and so as soon as the government and so as soon as it comes from one source, it can be funneled. Whereas if it comes from all of us and the market's kind of deciding as one giant sociological conglomerate, then we have a better chance. But I would also I would I would argue like Can the free market at this point with something like butter and how we handle our butter, can it communicate well enough to I mean Walmart or Cargill or whoever's who's who has the cattle or who the far the ranchers who own the land or the people who put up the KAFOs or whatever they are, are we gonna be able to communicate in a way with our dollar strong enough that would actually bring change? Austin (09:56.066) What I always tell my libertarian friends is never forget the goal of any corporate e executive is monopoly. Like you don't want competitive markets because you know it's ruthless. You know, you want to get to a point of market dominance where you get a little of cream off the top. No pun intended. so you wanna use your economic power to corrupt the political system to reinforce your political power. And so like I mean to me the best example here is meat. I mean JBS is the largest meat packer in the world and like what they do is they capture government, they push regulations down on the local meat packers so they can't, you know, really thrive. And if you start to thrive, they will undermine you the Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (10:03.112) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (10:11.217) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Austin (10:32.851) I the the most ruthless company in America. but I kind of always go back to though, God, yeah. I mean they are I mean they pled guilty to bribing over 1,800 Brazilian politicians. I they've been accused of bribing meat inspectors, child labor. Like it is, I mean, first of all, meat's always a ruthless business. Like, let's not romanticize it. Like, but they are a level. Nicolas Lirio (10:36.993) Really? Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (10:44.337) Wow. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (10:51.613) Yeah. Austin (10:55.077) I mean, how do you compete? I don't want to feel sorry for Tysons, but how do you compete against a company that like is willing to there is no low with them? I mean th this the thing that got got me is after the they pled guilty to bribing all those politicians, they agree to wear a wire, bribing the president of Brazil at the time. And then allegedly they knew their stock price would collapse, so then they essentially bet against a stock like insider trading or price or you know, there's a f and it's just like it's I mean, they are Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (11:16.737) my goodness. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (11:22.161) It it's a win at all costs mindset. Nicolas Lirio (11:25.685) Yeah, no matter what. Austin (11:25.905) There's no ethics. There's no and anyone that if you have any moral core, you're gonna go broke. Like you can't compete against someone that has there's no load to them. And I say all this Nicolas Lirio (11:34.251) Yeah, we've found that even in the seed business is like Kent and I are like, if you do the right thing, you'll get run over. Or n now to be fair, seed business is smaller, so there's less ruthlessness in it, but you'll get nickel and dimed down to no no profit margin or you know, negative profit margin, you know, if you're gonna hold ethics. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (11:34.332) Mm-hmm. Austin (11:52.432) And that's why and I wanna like that's why I always remind remember about in Iowa's like if you don't grow corn and soil, you're gonna go broke. Like it's so hard to do, like because the scales are so tipped. And my last point due to that your point earlier is I just always go back to Goldilocks. Like so much of life is figuring out that sweet spot. And we just went so far over one way where like it's just like you need a little guardrail, because if you don't have guardrails, you get the worst actors thriving. It's it's like Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (12:00.083) Mm-hmm. Austin (12:21.605) It's kind of a cheesy comparison, but I think of like a garden. Like if you don't prune the weeds, one weed will take over and you know suffocate everything else. And that's what's basically happened to a lot of these markets. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (12:30.299) Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of truth to that. Nicolas Lirio (12:30.583) Man, that's the the meat packing, I mean, that's like the thing right now is is both meat packing. I'm I'm I'm personally very curious about like Purdue and their contracts with their chicken farmers, but we should get to that after we talk about beef, because everybody's talking about beef. The administration's shooting itself in the foot, talking about beef, pulling in new beef, either the consumer wins or the farmer wins. We're incentivized against each other, everybody's angry about it, and the prices are higher at the grocery store. I mean, what's your view on all this stuff? Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (12:48.25) Yeah. Austin (13:01.455) really cynically, Trump views he knows he has he thinks he cattle ranchers in the bag for him, so he's throwing them under the bus 'cause he thinks he's worried about a suburban voter and beef cost. I I I I just think he knows like what else he could he's taking them for granted. And like it's Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (13:15.955) Well just from from a numbers from a number of voters standpoint. I mean, I remember it was we've joked about this a few times back in I think it was like around December or something when when or when was it when the E the year round yeah yeah the year round E fifteen deal and Iowa Corn Growers Association sent a letter to the White House and they said on behalf of our seventy five hundred members of Iowa it's like you Austin (13:19.673) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (13:29.761) It was during the E fifteen. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (13:46.702) lost all any kind of leverage you expected to have, you lost it when you said on behalf of our seventy five hundred members. I mean that seventy five hundred votes is nothing to to on a on a federal level. And I think I think you're exactly right. I think it's just the administration is is viewing it as okay, that's great. Cattle ranchers are probably gonna vote for us anyways and there's not that many of compared to the number of people who push a grocery cart. Austin (14:13.477) The thing that gets me is like and this is almost embarrassing and funny to say, the best piece of meat reform legislation ever produced in the US Congress came earlier this year. It was done by Chuck Schumer. Like Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (14:23.751) Yeah. Really? Austin (14:26.755) Yeah, so like the I mean full disclosure, I kinda helped with it, but they're doing I basically call it glass steagle for protein, where if you butcher one kind of if you're once you're so big, if you butcher one protein, you can't butcher another. So like, for example, most of the meat companies, they do they do all four proteins. So you essentially break them up. And then on top of it, they have certain regulations on beef. You can only have so much market share, you can only buy so much from a feedlot. And basically the bill is designed to to force JBS and Chinese own WH group to di di to sell off their American assets. And like Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (14:30.131) It's awesome. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (14:37.595) Okay. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (14:56.21) Yeah. Austin (14:56.679) This is Chuck Schumer. at the same time too though, where where are the Democrats right now? To me, this is if you want to put your political hat on, why are you not outflanking Republicans? I mean, this is like in the day the Great Plains states are Republican states. They're we are witnessing the loss of our beef sovereignty. I mean, that's a a phrase that I remember hearing for the first time from Bill Bollard of RCAF. And like what I realized is Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (15:09.128) Yeah. Austin (15:20.709) What's happening to beef right now is what happened to textiles in the 90s in North Carolina's. It's moving offshore. Like it you're not seeing we're at usually at moments like this with beef prices, you see herd rebuilding and you're not seeing it. And people are just, here's the thing, do you I mean you know these margins aren't coming back? You don't trust these companies. And at the same time, too, is I blame ethanol. Is like ethanol expanded the corn belt, a lot of pasture land is not put in corn production, you can't compete on rental price. Nicolas Lirio (15:24.791) Wow. Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (15:25.852) Mm. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (15:30.993) Yeah. Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (15:37.256) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (15:45.201) Yep, absolutely. Austin (15:47.206) Because of climate stuff, a lot of the land in the south you can't use any more pasture because of droughts and all that. So like the beef area where we can actually do beef has shrunk because of ethanol, because of the climate stuff. And then on top of it, you know, you can't compete on price against these models that employed children in in the the Amazon rainforest. And so it's just like that's what's going on here. It's like and they don't I mean that's what's kinda also why you're seeing these plant closures is like like the one in Davenport That that was now most beef is shipped to the West. So you you're just not as much you don't have a lot of cattle on Midwest farms anymore. Nicolas Lirio (16:22.711) Do you think there's like this is a strong term and it's like self-inflicted, so I'm being a little critical, but like laziness and entitlement, like I mean the people that are coming to work on these are either immigrants or visa workers. Like the vast majority. We have a Hormel, we have a Hormel factory here in Knoxville or a a processing plant. yeah, it's right next to the giant 3M plant. Austin (16:48.361) I didn't know that. Nicolas Lirio (16:51.933) Hormel and then three of Yeah. Austin (16:53.297) Are they doing butchering there or are they doing like the like processing? Okay. Nicolas Lirio (16:56.181) No, I think they're processing and packaging. yeah. And so the Hormel is almost exclusively visa workers or immigrants, and three is like everyone from from, you know, that was born here in the United States. But it's almost like us people born in the United States, we don't want to deal with cattle. Cattle are a lot of work. It's a lot harder to farm cattle than it is to or to ranch than it is to do corn and beans, you know. And do you think That's playing into it, like we're just like we're just like slouching on the couch and getting kinda lazier, or do you think it's just, you know, economics at that point? Austin (17:35.27) I think like two things. One, I just don't support visas. I mean, I think most of these visas are just a fancy way of saying indentured servitudes. You you just can't like in H two A, like year-round H two A for industrial dairies, like it's just you're doing your own cows, like you just can't compete against and also like there's a whole weird can of worms. When you take a bunch of twenty year old men, you you're both their employer and their landlord and you kinda lock away from society in a language they don't speak, you're just asking for trouble. Like, let's be real frank. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (17:41.617) Mm. Nicolas Lirio (17:41.837) Mm. Nicolas Lirio (18:01.525) Yeah. Yeah. I I wanna push I wanna push back just a little bit because I haven't been to like mass visa workers, but I've had family members who are visa workers and it was a big deal for them. They made, you know, the equivalent of maybe seventeen dollars an hour today and but their housing was paid for and they shipped that money back to the Philippines and and they worked very hard and it really did and it op but they were networkers, they were very extroverted people, so they went out Austin (18:04.185) The other thing too it what? Nicolas Lirio (18:29.855) made friends and those connections helped them come over. It wasn't my parents or my grandparents, but I have several cousins that like I guess second cousins, that that's kinda how they got over here. And it was a good opportunity for them. I'm not saying what you're saying isn't happening. I I would just say that, you know, there's a little bit of baby in the bathwater, at least. Austin (18:47.675) There's I generally I don't want to do visas. I'd rather just like, hey, we're gonna take so many immigrants a year and p path to citizenship. I just don't want like this weird purgatory thing. Either you're like, hey, if you were if you're a good citizen, you do this, then you get citizenship. But this visa thing is a per it's very purgatory and to me it's just too much power in the hands of the employer. That's my big concern with it. It's just like it's it's that. It's just especially with the H two A's. Like that is like I am more worried Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (19:03.571) Mm. Nicolas Lirio (19:03.787) Yeah. That's fair. That's a Austin (19:16.513) You can probably talk me into like seasonal that type of work for like produce, you know, things like that, but like, dear God, doing it year-round for industrial farms, like that's just not And then it's just I also think the fact a lot of them are also the landlord, that that's a little that's a little feudal lordy. It's just like you see, especially like the stories you see in dairy of like t putting 12 20-year-old men in two bedroom trailers, it's just like Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (19:21.299) Mm-hmm. Nicolas Lirio (19:24.641) Yeah. Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (19:34.131) Mm-hmm. Nicolas Lirio (19:42.208) yeah. Well even yeah. Austin (19:44.025) I think of the Molly Tibbetts thing. Like, remember that in Iowa a few years ago? Like I wasn't that an industrial dairy worker, like a twenty year guy? Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (19:46.927) Yeah, yep, yeah, yeah. Nicolas Lirio (19:51.339) Yeah, that was a crazy I I mean, there's like all sorts of stuff going on with that story and and it was like disturbing, yeah. Austin (19:56.57) I I've heard so many when I was buying my car, I literally I I heard I didn't realize there was all these conspiracy theories 'cause like my car person was telling me Okay I we don't need to open this can of worms, but like Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (20:02.486) yeah. Nicolas Lirio (20:04.113) yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, and I I would say that we even know farmers, Ken I know farmers, they farm thousands and thousands of acres and the people who come in and work for them, because they want to farm, right? Twenty-six year olds, their only chance of farming is working for someone who actually owns the farm, and the whole operation. They rent the house from the person they work for, you know, it i because that person probably swallowed up a farm that had an extra house on it. And that house, even though it was a hundred and twenty thousand dollars, it was a nothing burger to them. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (20:05.381) Yeah. No Nicolas Lirio (20:31.595) And so now they just rent it out of their employees or like cut out some of their wages so they can live. You know, there's all sorts of and I'm like, that's just lords and serfs. That's all that is. Austin (20:40.166) Yeah. But I know, but it's it's one of those it goes back to Goldilocks. Here's the thing. That used to happen, but not to the degree we have. Like now you have people that own like a dozen homes. You know what I mean? Like this kind of like it used to be kind of like yeah, I just think of the 80s, where like, yeah, sure, you might some a farmer might own two or three, and then like you know what I mean, like that's more it's not as bad as what we're seeing, like these emergence of Field Lords. And then to your question though, your core question about do people you know, beef is hard, do people want to do this? What I go back to is like it to me, it reminds me of a local restaurant. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (20:49.117) Yeah. Austin (21:10.755) opens a local restaurant to get rich. You do it because you love it. Like not everything in life is about maximizing the most money possible. It's like it's prime. especially in and with animals. I notice it more with most with dairy than anything is like people have a they there's so much there's such a strong relationship. Like most dairy farmers treat their dairy cows like dogs. Like most human beings do with dogs. They'll tell you the personality they'll tell you that we'll Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (21:19.186) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (21:35.155) Mm-hmm. Austin (21:39.216) What we're missing now is people just don't have the chance to do this. Like it's and some people do it and then they don't realize like like it there's this great example I in my Kerry Gold chapter with is this family, this Irish family, they're probably forty years old, they have four kids, they have a hundred and twenty cows, and they go on vacation every year and they're happy. Like you used to be able to do that now. And here's the thing you used to be able to do it and it all collapsed in my lifetime. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (21:42.642) Yeah. Austin (22:05.243) But it's just restoring that because to me the middle class family farm is how you stabilize the system. The they're the ones that pay the local taxes, they're the ones that send kids to school. And it's just getting to that system to like allow allow someone who doesn't wasn't born into it to enter it. and I also rather I don't think there's a magical number on any of this stuff. Like it's Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (22:10.301) Mm-hmm. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (22:21.757) Yeah. Austin (22:27.867) There's a really good book called Ten Restaurants That Change in America, I recommend to people where it uses restaurants as a way to talk about changes in American food. And my favorite chapter is on Del Monaco's. It's the oldest steakhouse in America, goes back to the Civil War. Yeah, it's really cool. It's what they talk about is like, what? Wall Street. Actually, to be like this is bougie, but that's that's how we celebrated when Barons came out as we went there. Because I wanted Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (22:39.722) wow. Where's it at? Where's it at? Really? Nicolas Lirio (22:46.88) Wow. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (22:52.647) Yeah, you wanted the experience. Austin (22:53.465) It you know, you want to experience it and like so a lot of the famous steakhouse dishes they created. That steakhouse. But what's cool about this book is the proteins we eat changes over time. You know, we used to eat a lot more turtle. I mean chicken, even chicken at a restaurant's pretty new in America. And like here's the thing, who knows where the markets are gonna be in twenty years from now? We might be on a sheep kick, you know? Or buffalo. I hope we are too. Like it's sheep is like my big thing. Is like Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (22:58.472) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (23:07.953) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (23:15.821) I hope we are. Austin (23:21.689) I think there'd be some really cool stuff with sheep and solar panels and like just grazing and that kind of stuff. and also I like sheep, so Nicolas Lirio (23:26.231) Yeah. Yeah, we did we looked into it. I I've I I like solar. I don't think it's like our our the silver bullet, but I really like solar and and we looked it up and it's like on an acre of corn, it po it would power a vehicle to go like thirteen thousand miles, and an acre of solar per year would power a car to go like one point two million miles. Like it it was insane the difference in like how much energy if we're gonna use our farm ground for energy. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (23:50.191) Mm. Yeah, the efficiency. Nicolas Lirio (23:53.759) If that's our goal, which I don't think it necessarily should be, but if it is, just throw solar up everywhere, you know. Austin (23:58.022) Yeah. Or for me it's just even if just that way a farm can be self sufficient. It's just throw a p a few panels up with your sheep, that way you can just be off the grid. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (24:01.479) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (24:03.009) Yeah. Yeah. We love it. I yeah, we I've been pushing for sheep as well. I think we need to get it in restaurants and grocery stores and normalize it in our gut biomes. man, so so with with beef right now, I I'm curious, like I what do you think's gonna happen? Like where do you think we're gonna go from an ant like looking macro lump? Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (24:05.138) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (24:24.967) Well, before before we get there, let's talk about the most recent bit of the news, which is the sudden importation of I can't remember how much beef. has it has it been determined where it's coming from yet for sure? Austin (24:35.496) yeah. Austin (24:41.317) Well also it's we're kinda getting the scraps. I mean I didn't that's something I just learned. It's like rejected Chinese meme because it has like no, it's weird it's scary. Like it's it's rejected for China but it's coming here. Nicolas Lirio (24:44.045) Yeah, it's like donkey meat from Africa. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (24:45.747) What? Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (24:52.229) Yeah, I heard was it China? Yeah, China rejected it. Yeah, yeah. Austin (24:56.815) I mean this is first of all, you I don't know if you saw that. It's the the JBS. they met they were tr Trump's largest inauguration donor. They weirdly helped with that whole Venezuela whatever you want to call that, kidnapping a foreign leader. And then there they met with Trump and then the next day he announces this. Yes. Yes. That's like based in Brazil, somehow is like intertwined with Venezuela. I it's because like Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (25:05.615) Nice. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (25:14.343) They were involved in that Venezuela deal? A meat packing company. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (25:23.757) my goodness. Austin (25:25.873) Here's the thing, they're the largest meat pack in the world. We've had meat giants before. They're at a scale that we've never seen because they're in all the major production regions of the world. You know, they're in they dominate Australia, they dominate Europe, they dominate South America, they dominate America, North America. And so it's just like and it's a whole game of like foreign currencies, like based on currencies will shift production. Like it's and it's just like it's a level of power we just have not seen. And like here's the thing, it's not just like they do chicken, beef, pork. Nicolas Lirio (25:34.351) Nicolas Lirio (25:39.073) Wow. Nicolas Lirio (25:46.536) Interesting. Austin (25:53.574) They also are number one in leather. They are getting into eggs now. Like it's all about, you know what I mean? Like it's just like a blob that keeps growing. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (25:57.748) That's crazy. Nicolas Lirio (26:00.418) You think they're the most powerful company in the world? Austin (26:03.183) No, that's Walmart. Nicolas Lirio (26:04.715) It's still Walmart. Okay, I I wondered it. I didn't know. Austin (26:06.421) In the f in the food system. Like f in in the food system it's Walmart and Cargill. Nicolas Lirio (26:11.123) Okay, you'd you'd put Cargill over JBS. Austin (26:14.767) Yeah, because that's a great question. if I had a rank Cargo output number two, you're more powerful when you're in the shadows. Nicolas Lirio (26:26.869) And JBS is more in the shadows? Austin (26:29.003) No, GBS we kinda know, like they're they're so famous now. Yeah, I Cargill is Nicolas Lirio (26:31.35) yeah. Yeah, Cargill never goes on it like see Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (26:32.615) The the co the coffee baron is the the coffee baron is the the gold standard for being in the shadows, right? I remember that from the book. Well, I I remember you saying that, like nobody no yeah, nobody knows who they are exactly and Austin (26:38.648) really? Yeah, yeah. Well I mean the Nazi. Nicolas Lirio (26:40.307) yeah. Nicolas Lirio (26:44.171) Yeah, but Carbi Cargill's the wealthiest private company in the world and nobody knows who they are. And they're yeah. Austin (26:49.445) That and and they're middlemen. Like that's the scary thing is like the middlemen are usually always they're not consumer facing. Like you you never see cargo on a product. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (26:58.195) That's true. That's true. Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (27:00.427) Yeah, I know. And you never see an ad, and they don't go on like Fox News or CNN to give like an ag report, even though they probably are best positioned to give ag reports. They will never do that. They don't run for office, nothing. Yeah. Austin (27:10.765) It they use middleman. That and that's like what I mean it's that's the whole thing the weirdest thing about riding barons was the weird respect you'd get for them. I I respect yeah like Extreme Discipline Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (27:20.273) Yeah. Like extreme discipline. Nicolas Lirio (27:21.029) yeah. Like the Rothschilds in the sixteen hundreds, you're like, I'm kind of impressed. Austin (27:28.365) It it's there's a level of Machiavellianness here that like, wow. Like in I mean even like Sam Bolton's the one I realized, like, you're both really I don't want to say evil's the right word. He was really good at manipulating public narrative. I mean, like th but that's also like the guy ha his whole story of like he had a the original like a general store in the Del first of all, he started in Des Moines, he worked at the JCPennies in Des Moines, fun fact. Nicolas Lirio (27:44.821) Mm. Nicolas Lirio (27:54.892) Hm. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (27:55.344) You know what, I think I did know that. Maybe from our last conversation with you, yeah. Austin (27:58.876) probably. And like it's it's probably a detail I made sure to include in the book because I love that kind of stuff. But like he started in the Delta, landlord saw he was doing good, basically kicked him out, and then he moved up to Bentonville, and like that's how that and he grinded it out. I mean, but also like he was ruthless. Like he exploited the way minimum wage laws used to work in America is if you were only a certain size, you didn't have to pay it. So he would s every Walmart was a different company, basically. So he was paying half the minimum wage. You what I mean? But it's like this kind of Nicolas Lirio (28:08.118) Yeah. Austin (28:28.537) And I don't know, it's like one of those but that's how you get it's like a combination the way you become an oligarch or a baron is both a degree of business brilliance, but also like you're willing to cross lines most people aren't willing to cross. Nicolas Lirio (28:40.823) Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I I think I think that is totally true because when you race to the bottom, it's not always who gets there faster. Sometimes it's who's willing to go lower. And I actually man, I so Sam Walton has this moment that you're talking about that I have I changed I think the Midwest in lots of good and lots of bad ways. And his when he was with his lawyer and his lawyer said, I'm sorry, there's nothing you can do about getting kicked out of this grocery store and he said and he talks about right there like I think I like I was close to quitting, hanging it up, going and getting a job, but I decided no, I'm not whipped. I did it once, I could do it again. And that's one of the most like inspirational moments that anyone's ever had that I think but I also agree, like I have a business brand. I mean, just vulnerable here. I have like a business family on all three sides of my family. Everybody starts businesses, and I have to like fight that. So when we talk on the podcast, I intentionally made our goal not to grow forever, not to be the biggest company. We want to be a regional pillar. Like one of many regional pillars for Prairie because I I feel that bug coming in. It's like, well, you know, for the greater good, we could just like do this or do that or you know, and and well, you know, people are getting better products now that we have Walmart all over the place. You know, it's so easy to justify all these things that the business people do, and I don't I don't want to do that and and the I'm I'm a big believer the ends just don't justify the means. I d I don't like that. Yeah. Austin (30:07.281) But that's why you guardrails. I mean, that's why the whole libertarian thing, you just can't, if you don't put guardrails up, you will get that. Like you want, you want the whole time you're talking, I kept thinking like this is a good movie. because it literally is American Dream Gone Sideways. Like you want someone like that who's willing to like grind it out, hustle, build this, like. but at some point too, you want him to hit a wall where it's just like, you can't behave this way. Like, you know what I mean? Like, we have standards. Like, cause if you don't, then that's what Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (30:17.179) Yeah. Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (30:17.495) Yeah. Hm. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (30:30.163) Yeah. Austin (30:35.129) You also just see like it's kind of the kind of my goal when I wrote Cisco was it's you want to protect companies almost from themselves. Like what Cisco is is basically being like an Amazon for gross for restaurants, like a everything store. That's a that's a cool like that's a helpful thing. But like Nicolas Lirio (30:43.137) Hmm. Austin (30:52.989) it becomes a blah but if you don't fence it in then it just starts eating itself almost. Where like now it's just like I mean the Cisco chapter, we didn't I did not expect it to hit the way it hit. 'Cause it's just kinda like everyone's just been to a wedding or like a restaurant where it's just the food is just so blah and you just all know it's Cisco. Nicolas Lirio (30:56.789) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (30:56.829) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (31:00.827) Mm. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (31:08.283) Yeah. Yeah. Yep, that is that is the Nicolas Lirio (31:09.621) Yeah. Or a gas station or something. What about what what do you think of Costco? Austin (31:16.177) man. so my brother got me hooked on Costco like year ago. Yeah, yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (31:17.437) Can I ask what can can I ask one more thing before we move on from the beef thing? Because I it relates to like the Cisco thing and something that I I'm concerned about. So when I hear about this beef this beef import that that Trump went and and scrounged up, we e everyone who hears that says, Well, I'm not eating that beef. But the real question is, are you? I mean it end up like in a Cisco system where you think you aren't eating it and then you go to a wedding where they're serving lasagna that's loaded with this great deal beef. Or if you go to if you go to McDonald's or you go to Culver's or you go to when you know, Applebee's what wherever. I mean what is the w I mean based on what you n And maybe you don't know specifically in this case, but would you guess that the average American who eats out a couple times a week, or buys all their beef from you know, based on price from a big box grocery store, are they gonna likely get a nibble or two of this imported beef? Austin (32:31.279) Yeah, I would just assume it. To me, it that reminds me of the whole Taylor Farms of it all. I know, it's like, but that is that's the American food system now. Like it's just like they don't want you there's no transparency. They don't want you to know and like it's but also at the same time too, you shouldn't have to worry about it. You shouldn't have to be worried that you're getting Chinese reject beef when you buy a steak at Texas Roadhouse on a Friday night, you know? I don't I I it Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (32:34.287) That is so unsettling. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (32:42.183) my god. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (32:51.345) Right. What a way what a way to describe that. Nicolas Lirio (32:57.089) Ha ha ha. Austin (33:00.827) Well here okay, here's a detail and like l just to go like a little on a side note, is I'm researching Taylor Farms right now, and part of what held up the inspection of it all is that region or state, wherever they call it Mexico, the State Department has on the red list where Americans can't go to it. It's so dangerous. So our inspectors were held up getting to it. So our food is coming from a place that we're not even allowed to go to. And it's just like you sit there and think about this, and it's just like Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (33:05.426) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (33:19.581) Goodness. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (33:24.492) my goodness. Nicolas Lirio (33:25.069) Hm. Austin (33:29.129) So much of this, like from the beef to the lettuce, it's like so much stupid, so much how to go wrong, and it's so illogical. We're like so much of what we're talking about is traditional. Like it is ridiculous that a farmer in Iowa can no longer feed themselves. Like you could be in a diner in Iowa and none of the food's from Iowa. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (33:45.586) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's absolutely insane. Nicolas Lirio (33:49.662) Interesting. I I smell a business opportunity for someone to be able to make a software where you can figure out if someone says, Hey, this beef was pasture raised, what pasture or like what yard. Now JBS would never sign up for that, but I bet there's a lot of small, you know, producers that sell quarters and holes that would be like, Hey, you can here's my link. You can see right on Google Maps where they where they're there's something there. But anyway, Costco. Austin (34:19.45) Well decide I was gonna say my mind went to a business and it's just having a restaurant eye where you serve local food. Like just like good pasture pork or something, like very simple food, but done. Like not I don't know, 'cause it what? Nicolas Lirio (34:27.403) Yeah. Interesting. But can the would the consumer stomach it, the price? 'Cause it would go from a twelve dollar meal to eighteen or nineteen dollar meal, you know what I mean? Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (34:28.413) Yeah. Austin (34:39.877) Yes and no. I think you the proof of concept I I point people to is milk and honey in Harlan, Iowa. I highlight them in my Cisco chapter. They the they do pasture meat and they own a restaurant on the town square and they serve their meat. And it's basically the price of a Burger King meal at this point, and it's so much better. I mean, like I love their I love corned beef hash. I think I paid fourteen dollars there and like it's really good. And like Ellen to me like what Iowa could be. I mean sh she's Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (34:45.029) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (34:58.066) Mm. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (35:07.165) Yeah. Austin (35:08.303) the she's like Iowa mother of the year has two kids farmer runs a business so also but you see to me when I go to her restaurant I see what Iowa could be. And like it's and what's cool about the restaurant is it's not like some thing that people from Des Moines drive to. There's a lot of old people in Iowa and like that's that's your bread and butter of any business. It's a coffee crowd. And like that's what we've been for the longest time we kinda industry justified it this destruction 'cause it made food cheap and that's just not true anymore. I mean that is like something like Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (35:12.093) That's so awesome. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (35:25.723) Yeah. Yep. Nicolas Lirio (35:25.836) Yeah. Austin (35:36.25) You're just being gouged. I mean, also like a lot of the especially fast food, it's just not worth the price anymore. It's so expensive and so bad. But to c the Costco, like I'm curious to hear what you guys think. Like I it's kinda like we were talking earlier, Kent, Kent, about malls. I just like to walk around sometimes. Nicolas Lirio (35:43.629) Yeah. Absolutely. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (35:43.997) Yeah. Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (35:54.929) Yeah. Austin (35:55.556) I don't buy that much at Costco, but I really admired their merchandising and how they're always flipping product over. Like I I'll walk every aisle just to see what's there. I don't really buy their median produce. I think it's that good. But to me, it's like, you know, I'll buy my dish stuff or whatever. Like, what what do they have on the computer? What do they have for Halloween decorations? Like, I enjoy it. Like I don't like there's not many places in America where you like enjoy the retail experience anymore. And like I felt I feel like I enjoy Costco. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (35:59.71) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (36:18.715) That's a good point. That's a really good point. Yeah, the the the well linking this back to Kerrygold, I'm pretty sure 'cause we do we do shop at Costco. I'm pretty sure that is the only butter that you can buy at Costco. I could be wrong on that. Someone could could easily shoot me down there. Nicolas Lirio (36:21.601) There's sorry. Austin (36:38.277) They have some New Zealand. They have some New Zealand butter. Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (36:40.889) do they? But all all I've all I've been able to see here in in the the places I've gone is Kerrygold, but maybe it's like you're saying it's off to the side or something. But very prominently in the the icy cold dairy room is carigold right in the middle the room every time. Yep, yep. Austin (36:54.309) Yep. And when you see it on sale sometimes we'll buy like two big things of it, just throw it the freezer. Nicolas Lirio (37:00.471) Man, I I'm a huge I'm a huge Costco fan. They are very diligent about they don't price gouge, they don't do loss leaders, they they're fair. They're like what you want from a place you're buying your food and they have the same margin on everything. It's 14%, exact same margin. And what they buy it for, they bump it up fourteen percent, cover all their costs, which Walmart is like twenty six percent. You know what I mean? Now they're selling in bulk and they only have thirty two hundred SKUs. Where Walmart has like a hundred and twenty thousand. So they literally don't have that many different things, but you feel like they still have everything you could possibly want or have. The one last thing about Costco, and then I want to ask you about Amazon as well. But one last thing about Costco is Warren Buffett has this joke because Charlie Munger thinks that Costco is like the greatest business ever made. And so the joke with Warren Buffett was that they were on a plane. Austin (37:48.431) Huh. Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (37:54.048) And some hijackers took over the plane and said, We're gonna give everyone some final words and Warren or everyone a final wish. and Charlie Munger gets up. I would like to once again explain why Costco is the greatest company ever made. And Warren Buffett stood up and said, Please shoot me before he says that. That was his final wish. It was like 'cause he he just loved the company and so I don't know, acquired the podcast, did like a six hour podcast in depth deep dive on Costco. And it was it was Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (38:12.133) Mm-hmm. Nicolas Lirio (38:23.369) Wonderful. I I like gained so they did they do all these other companies, but this is the one that like morally I like gain respect. And then I had a bunch of friends that worked there in college and that was the highest paying job for someone for their age. So I I like a lot, but Austin (38:37.263) And people are happy. Like you work like I don't wanna feel guilty when I shop anymore. Like where someone like it's just like they're also n number two grocer in America now. It's because of the volume. It's just like it's an ins Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (38:40.808) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (38:41.026) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (38:45.877) Really? Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (38:45.981) Really? I did not know that. It's always packed in there. There's never like you you always think, all right, we're gonna go we're gonna go during the week at this time, so it's not so packed in there. You and you still struggle to find a spot in the lot. Austin (38:59.382) w first of all do you go sorry, indulge me, do you go to the Corville or Ankeny one? Nicolas Lirio (38:59.834) yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (39:04.093) we go to the West Des Moines one usually. Yep. It is nice, yeah. Austin (39:05.889) Okay. What about you? Anging Angony's nice. It's f it's big. And like I'm at the point now where when we travel like first of all, if I mean I was in Kentucky for some this weekend and like I went to the Costco there and like we went to like I'm going to Canada so like that's later this fall, so I'm gonna go check out Costco there. Like it's like it's just fun. It's but I also think part of Costco to me like Kerrygold where like it's more its success also reflects how bad everyone else has gotten. Nicolas Lirio (39:06.741) Yeah, ankening. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (39:16.819) Mm-hmm. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (39:34.833) Yeah, that's a good point. Austin (39:35.387) Like I I don't think people now realize Iowa's pretty good grocery stores, grocery trains. Most grocery stores in America are pretty awful at this point. They're under cap they're run down, they're not clean, like and there's something about Costco, it's just like it's not rocket science here guys. We're you're in retail, you know? Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (39:41.351) Mm. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (39:48.325) Yeah. Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (39:50.542) So speaking of retail, retail king himself, Amazon, what what are your thoughts there? I I don't hear you talk about it even though it's like, you know, the third largest company in the world, you know? Austin (40:01.399) I so when I wrote the Walmart chapter, and this was like five years ago, I viewed Walmart and Amazon like Gonzilla vs. Mothra. Like they're in this epic battle, and like I remember I I joked on my husband, I wish I bought stock at Am Walmart at the time, because I was just convinced people kinda put Walmart down out five years ago. I was like, no. They're they're on Walmart online's pretty much is pretty much as good as Amazon. I the prime my problem with Amazon is a lot of the stuff can be just be junky. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (40:03.751) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (40:08.999) Hmm. Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (40:20.423) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (40:25.277) Yeah. Austin (40:30.949) Like I don't really like to buy stuff on there because you'll just get a lot of Chinese crap. my bigger thing I've been thinking about, just for the listener, Ken and I were talking about dead malls in Iowa earlier, and is I think I've been I was walking around a dead mall when I was in Kentucky this past week and I was sitting there thinking, have you heard of these stores called bin stores? Where people sell to me, that's so part of my French third world. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (40:31.527) Mm-hmm. Nicolas Lirio (40:34.722) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (40:50.833) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nicolas Lirio (40:51.725) yeah. Nicolas Lirio (40:56.139) Yeah. Austin (40:57.125) There's something like people are just digging through it and you're like, here first of all, I do it, because it you can get it's kind of fun, but like there's something like they're in a run-down old abandoned mall store. They just, you know, throw a bunch of Chinese crap in there and you and you're like, I don't think we've really grappled with Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (41:01.928) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (41:06.717) Yeah, throw it all in there. Yeah. Austin (41:12.175) It's been 10, 20 years now of like online shopping, of our lived environment, how much that's changed to us. Like you don't see new strip mall stories, you don't see new chains, whatever. You don't really you I mean so much of our shopping now, we're not really interacting with people. It's like all online click. And I just like and it's all for one man. You know what I mean? Like it's like it's I don't know. I've been thinking about our how this Amazon has changed our built environment recently. Of like, I mean, Des Moines had four good malls at one point, now it's like one. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (41:25.467) Right. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (41:36.541) Yeah. Yep. Nicolas Lirio (41:38.817) Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, even that one sometimes is kinda like, you know, besides the Shields and the food court and the movie theater, it's kinda like okay. Yeah. Austin (41:44.911) Yeah. That's so funny because like I literally when I was there, we had like a baby thing and I like walking around there and like I used to buy a lot of stuff there. Now I just I buy food and shields. Yeah. It's and then they took out the play area, which I thought was stupid. But the last thing I'll say on Amazon is I don't Nicolas Lirio (41:56.885) Yeah quite Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (41:56.997) Yeah. Yeah. Austin (42:10.649) It's just it's it's the whole the sorry, the Whole Foods is the point I was gonna make. Whole Foods is kind of on the comeback. you're seeing it now Amazon basically the beauty of what the kind of step back made Whole Foods good and it was kind of like high v where they trust their managers to like run their stores. Hey, if you see a good farmers market vendor, put them in your store, help incubate them. It was really good for incubating new brands. And what happened now is Amazon comes in and centralizes procurement, kinda like what Cisco did. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (42:26.099) Mm. Austin (42:36.569) And now it's like every Whole Foods is the same, but they really dropped the prices. And then if you're Amazon Prime, you get into it. So now you're s because Amazon's been trying to figure out grocery. That was always Walmart's secret thing, is Walmart added grocery stores to every super center because it didn't need to make money there. But it you came in to buy milk and then you bought a tennis ball where they made money. And Amazon never quite figured that out, but now they're starting to figure it out. The problem with Whole Foods though is it's too bougie. So they've been trying to figure out how to go mass market. But it's I don't know. Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (42:44.722) Right. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (42:54.258) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (43:03.567) yeah, 'cause the Amazon bought Whole Foods like like seven years ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. Austin (43:06.415) Ten years ago. But it it's gonna be don now they're I think it was announced it hasn't opened yet Chicago. Amazon's gonna open like its version of the Walmart Super Center. Like a two hundred thousand square foot store or something. Yeah. trust me, I'll be there like the opening week. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (43:21.231) really? Nicolas Lirio (43:22.454) Interesting. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (43:25.297) Yeah. Gathering data. Yeah, you do. Nicolas Lirio (43:26.989) Interesting. Austin (43:28.475) Gathering data, but it's also you just gotta see this stuff. I mean, I went to this is a side note, there was one down in before Walmart opened, so the Super Center is actually like the second version of that concept. the original one was called hypermarket USA. It was like, think of it like it was even bigger than a supercenter. Like like I don't even know the number, it was maybe two or three hundred. So that's the problem, was it was too much walking for Americans. Nicolas Lirio (43:31.148) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (43:43.895) Hmm. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (43:48.925) That's hard that's hard to imagine. Nicolas Lirio (43:55.539) Really? Austin (43:55.886) And so the walking was like like the the employees or these stories in the Dallas paper at the time, employees would have roller skates. But so Nicolas Lirio (44:03.373) Like an old sonic, so that's funny. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (44:03.478) my goodness. Well I guess that's better than like segues or something like that. Austin (44:07.705) Yeah. But then the the super center, the origin the first one opened outside St. Louis and the it was supposed to be the small town version of that concept and they realized that's a sweet spot. Nicolas Lirio (44:08.429) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (44:19.156) Interesting. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (44:19.249) Interesting. Ha you know, this makes me think this it's along the same lines, but i it was maybe around fifteen years ago I started seeing these fake cities that were shopping centers that were were starting to be set up. So you'd like you would drive in there and you're like, this is like a little you know, this is like a little town or something and you start looking around, it's like a movie set almost where it's like it's like plywood storefronts, you know what I mean, made to look like an Italian v Villa or something like that. And all it was was just places for you to spend money. You know, it it'd be it'd be little you know, your your your usual strip mall type stores mixed in with maybe a salon or and and it was just interesting how the shopping experience was completely reimagined to to fit like some cultural I you know, gamble I think that that you know, whoever it was that was funding these these centers, they thought like, people like the local small town feel. What if we created our stores in a local small town feel? Nicolas Lirio (45:30.903) Ha ha ha. Austin (45:33.582) It it reminds me of Bentonville. Like, I've been to V Bentonville a few times and like there was an article in the Wall Street Journal mansion section a few years ago where it's becoming the new Dallas. Like it's just it's popping. For the first time ever, that that airport does more traffic than Little Rock. 'cause you think of it, in northwest Arkansas, it's like Walmart, Tysons, and JB Hunt. And the Walmart family owns everything in town. They own like like you land at the at like Alice Walden Airport. They own the hotels, the restaurants, like Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (45:45.043) Hm. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (45:49.811) That is crazy. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (45:54.993) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (45:55.117) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (45:59.544) yeah. Art like an art museum and stuff too, right? Austin (46:04.335) Yep. And the art museum it's it's in it's world class. They just did a massive expansion. And then they opened like a contemporary art museum. They're building a children's center. Like, but it's it's almost like downtown Disney, like kinda your point. Like it's romanticizing what it killed. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (46:14.642) Yeah. yeah, yeah. That's a good way to say it, yeah. Nicolas Lirio (46:17.27) Interesting. Austin (46:20.367) my favorite little detail is like there's like a it's actually a good brand marketing thing is you can like tour with original Walmart and like it's very you know I mean like a little history of Walmart. And here's the thing, that's not the first Walmart. First Walmart's an abandoned antique mall in Rogers, Arkansas, next door. But they understand, like, I don't know, there's it's kinda evil and brilliant at the same time though. Nicolas Lirio (46:36.508) Interesting. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (46:36.808) That's Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (46:41.051) Yeah. Well somet something Nick Nick has preached on forever is Nicolas Lirio (46:42.092) yeah. Well Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (46:46.355) And this isn't how he necessarily words it, but we like set ourselves up prime for the picking based on like what you're saying earlier with these shopping centers were too big for Americans to wanna wanna walk that far. I just pictured like some some person like sitting down on a on a toilet paper end cap or something catching a breather while they were trying to make their way over to the electronics. But but but we we make ourselves prime for the picking because we refuse to look at Try and find the man behind the curtain, you know. Austin (47:19.867) What I always go back to is these first of all, every era comes to an end. And we're just at the end of a laissez-faire era. Like the one thing I this is a weird thing to say. I remember knocking doors a few years ago in a campaign. I was knocking doors on a McMansion in like Marion, Iowa. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (47:34.417) Mm-hmm. Austin (47:34.685) And I was like, I just kept looking at like, I don't wanna ever live in a house like this. This is so expensive. Imagine replacing all these windows. Like these were this was like the George Bush era where like there was so much cheap undocumented labor to build a house. And you're like, that era's over. Also, like who wants to furn like that's a lot of money to furnish a house that big to eat like and you're like Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (47:40.914) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (47:50.814) yeah. And you start looking at what the actual building materials in those in those houses. I I mean you like look at the grain count on the boards. It'll be like four growth rings. You know what I mean? Compared to like an eighteen nineties house which has forty, you know. Austin (48:09.113) I kinda feel bad. I one of the things I always do is I'll I'll knock on people's cabinets so you can just tell how good you know what I mean? Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (48:13.906) Yeah, yeah. Nicolas Lirio (48:14.283) Yeah. When you're going over. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (48:16.975) It's true though. It's like it's like we get sold the McMansion because of the status of what it represents, but in reality it's like you're saying, it's a it's a potential it's a future n maintenance nightmare and it's a lot of stuff's gonna fall apart because it's it's not good material. Austin (48:18.063) Yeah. Austin (48:33.819) We're it was an era of quantity, not quality. And I I do think we're we're shifting. I think you're starting to see we saw what it like what it did, like the food we have s like there's so much food per se, but it's not good. And like it's I think people are I mean to me the big I think I'm finally this this past year is what I really appreciated. How much these GLP ones are just gonna change the whole food system. Like it is gonna be like I mean like ha yeah, in a good way. Like I Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (48:36.263) Right, exactly. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (48:56.253) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (48:59.146) in a good way, you're saying. Yeah. Austin (49:01.775) I don't what everything about the drugs is like it's having profound changes in what people buy. Nicolas Lirio (49:06.731) Wow. What what what are they buying? Like I know they eat yeah. I know they eat less, but besides that, how would it change it? Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (49:07.027) N I I wanna hear more about this. I'm not I I know a lot of people use but how how is it changing what people are buying? Austin (49:15.729) They're they're they're going more to dairy products. So that's why you're seeing like cottage cheese protein drinks take off. They're doing a lot more produce. Like it basically there's a lot of there's a cool academic in Michigan talking about how like a lot of the big tobacco companies brought bought food companies in like eighties and nineties. Like, you know you know, that one cigarette Philip Morris bought like craft and they applied the science of addiction to processed foods. So like, you know what I mean? Like you Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (49:33.867) yeah, yeah. Nicolas Lirio (49:38.007) Mm-hmm. Did they actually do that? Did they sit in their boardrooms and go like, Hey, we know how to get people hooked on stuff, let's do it again? You know what I mean? Austin (49:48.774) I don't think it's at high level. I think the scientists is just like, you know, you have your scientists of like, for example, there's a great story on like like take Doritos. Doritos did a reengineering, and Doritos is free to lay, which is different. But they basically in the eighties they did a whole revamp where they soften the edges so it's not it's the Doritos are a tortilla chip, which I never think of them as a tortilla chip, but they are. They soften the edges so it doesn't hurt your mouth when you eat them. They intensified the flavor. Yeah. Yes. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (50:05.735) Yeah. That's true, yeah. Nicolas Lirio (50:07.883) Huh. Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (50:11.219) And if you swallow one sideways, ever everyone's had that nightmare. Nicolas Lirio (50:14.573) Austin (50:17.615) And it's just like, first of all, that sounds so stupid, but people spent so much time on it. And like, you know what? It paid off. I mean, they're a massive chip. And they put like you know the the chemicals on it, like if you ever have like the I call them the naked Doritos, RFK Doritos, it's just not as good. Like they don't have that, like you know where you just keep eating? And when people go on GLP ones, what happens is that stuff turns off. Like you just like it doesn't Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (50:23.56) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (50:35.983) Yeah, yeah. Nicolas Lirio (50:37.025) Yeah. Austin (50:44.325) You what you what you crave differs. You get fuller, faster. Like like these things are designed so you keep eating. So like normal things your body does to shut down of eating, they kind of override. And GLP1s kind of help change that. Also, like I'll just say the last thing, it's the most American thing. Like, for $150 a month you can lose weight. People are gonna do that. You know, you now you have a pill. Nicolas Lirio (50:55.809) The sorry. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (51:02.461) Yeah. Yeah. Yep, yeah, I saw saw a commercial for that. Nicolas Lirio (51:04.639) Yeah. Doesn't it feel kinda hunger gamesy? Like eat as much as you want and then take this pill or this shot and then you won't have to deal with the consequences of eat and now I know it like reduces your hunger, but it feels kinda dystopian, you know? Austin (51:17.657) It does, but I mean first of all, that welcome to America in twenty twenty six. at the same time too, I don't wanna put it on people though. Like it's I just think of like when life is hard, who doesn't want to like a slice of Casey's pizza and like a pop? You know what I mean? Like Nicolas Lirio (51:20.395) Yeah. Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (51:20.487) Yeah, yeah. Nicolas Lirio (51:29.473) Yeah. I I've asked I've asked a lot. I'm I a lot, like four or five doctors what they think of GLP ones. And my opinion is formed that I think over the next ten years, GLP ones will change America more than AI will change it. And be yeah, because when when you when you are less overweight or your blood sugar is better regulated, you produce more, you feel better, your relationships are stronger. Like imagine if every person that was overweight, I would I would include myself in that category. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (51:29.661) Yeah. Austin (51:44.101) Yes. I I agree. I Nicolas Lirio (51:59.658) if we all t took GLP ones and then produced five percent more, not just money wise, I mean just like my relationship with my spouse, like producing more. If we did if everybody did five percent more that was overweight, the it would be an unbelievable boost to the American society. Austin (52:17.145) I can't say that enough. I that's why I think it's huge. It's like it's God, that was one of the weirdest things to talk about in parents 'cause p people have so much baggage with weight, so you don't wanna like and also you can get hit on the left if you talk about, you know, the whole body positivity of it all. But like, let's be frank, we've never had the history of mankind the lower classes be the overweight classes. It was always the rich. And now it's like I I just and I notice I again knocking doors. I I'm a big believer in knocking doors. Like it's just to me it's you're it's not it's Nicolas Lirio (52:26.242) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (52:35.441) Yeah. Yeah. Austin (52:46.467) ethnography to be an academic is you're just getting a pulse of things and you just realize especially like It takes money to be healthy in this country. when you're overweight, you just kinda like you stay in your house. You just don't, you're not as active in society. And it's just not come on, when you're like healthy, you're just feeling better. I think this, like to your point, I I just think you're so right, Nick. I just think this is gonna be a game changer. Cause also like think of all think of Iowa. Like, what do we do? But we we half our corn crop goes to ethanol, you know, corn syrup, and like it's just gonna change a lot of this stuff. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (52:57.969) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (53:16.705) Yeah. Absolutely. Well Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (53:19.687) Yeah, what what's a a a question I kinda wanna ask along these lines, we're working in that direction. Like what is a what is a I mean, I I think you described it well and I've been having this sense for the last few months. But you said it so well. We're we're ending the laissez faire era and I I one the things I feel bad for for boomers I mean boomers they they take a lot on the chin and a lot of it is deserved. but but this this is a millennial speaking here. but one of the things I feel bad for millen or for boomers with is they were in a way victims of circumstance when big food was really gaining its ground and becoming the monster that it is today. Nicolas Lirio (54:09.741) T V dinners? Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (54:11.355) Yeah, T V dinners, you know, w I and some of this even spilled over to us as millennials. where it wasn't uncommon for every kid who brought remember remember cold lunch versus hot lunch, Austin? Every kid who had cold lunch had a little hostess cake that that they brought to to school with them. And and the quantity versus quality thing, right? the I think the best example, and this is probably gonna make some people mad, my Austin (54:23.973) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (54:41.269) Apologies. The best example of quantity versus quality are campers. when you when you look at like you can have it all right here in this wooden box made with cheap plywood that rots and presswood cabinetry and and you spend just a crazy amount of money for a new camper and then two years later it's worth literally like a tenth of what you paid for it. And and like all of that kind of marketing and Austin (54:45.52) Ha! Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (55:11.189) And value training happened to boomers. And and I feel sorry for them in the in in that sense. now I don't feel sorry for them for other reasons, but but so I don't want to get too too I don't know. what's the right term here? Sympathetic, I guess. Empathetic. but right, right. but Nicolas Lirio (55:32.558) Yeah. Boomer sympathist. How dare you? Yes. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (55:37.627) We're I sense we're ending that era, like you said. And what comes in that post laissez faire era as it relates to food? Austin (55:47.922) So I I smiled earlier because I we finally talked my parents to selling their camper a few years ago. It's like here's the thing with campers too, all that aside, it's so much work. It's not worth it. Like why are do you like in that with gas, it's so much to it costs a lot to move it. Why just like rent a cabin, like try different p I I don't get it. I'm like totally with you. and like they kept trying to get us to go up there and you're like, I can't Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (55:53.049) Ha ha ha. Nicolas Lirio (55:53.355) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (56:01.158) Yeah, it is. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (56:05.511) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (56:11.121) Yeah. Austin (56:15.341) Why do I want to use a shower that's so awful and press you know, like and then you can't really use the bathroom 'cause that's a whole candle worms, so then it's like the whole thing is just like Sorry. It's like Yes. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (56:17.645) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (56:22.707) That is so true. How many how many camper toilets still have the plastic over? we don't go in there. But it's got one. Nicolas Lirio (56:23.937) Yeah. Austin (56:31.961) No, I know, but it's just like you get like, but here's it, like even like my parents, the camper they bought like from an old HogKo guy who bought it and like just he used it once and didn't want it, and then they had a deal on it, and then it's just like But to your question, I don't know, th this is weird, follow me here. Is Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (56:43.26) Yeah. Yeah. Austin (56:53.783) bacon prices. So I found so when you adjust bacon prices f over time is when these models take hold, what they do is Wall Street money comes in and they flood the zone. So you look at bacon prices in the 80s and 90s, you saw a drop. What happens is so industrial hogs come on, it's really cheap. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (57:03.527) Mm-hmm. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (57:10.739) Mm. Austin (57:11.769) Family Farms exit the business because they can't compete against Wall Street money. And then what happens is it's not like bacon prices return to the nineteen eighties levels, we're not paying more for bacon adjusted for inflation. So keep in mind, we are the way you a hog on pasture is taste so much like the bacon I this is actually one of my favorite taste testings to do for people. Remember the whole Coke Pepsi thing? Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (57:31.163) Yeah, yep, yep. Nicolas Lirio (57:31.739) yeah. Austin (57:31.898) I do that with bac yeah, I do that with bacon. So I show people like industrial bacon's all fat. There's not much flavor to it. When you cook it, you know, you just get so much grease. When you cook like pasture bacon, you it's still you're eating muscles of an animal or whatever. Like it's beautiful, it's red. It's amazing. It's like that's what bacon should be. But you're paying more for a worse product. And that to me is a story of this moment of like Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (57:44.54) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (57:45.837) It's amazing. Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (57:47.281) Yeah, it's a it's a major difference. Austin (57:55.322) And I think not that I don't blame boomers, is like I don't think we really reckoned with how much China screwed up everything. Like the industrialization of China flooded our country with cheap manufacturing stuff. Where it's like, sure, I'll buy, I'll go to Yonkers and buy a $20 comforter and buy 10 of them. And they used to be good. But now we're in the Amazon era where like it's just so bad. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (58:08.975) Yeah, right, yeah. Nicolas Lirio (58:09.613) Hmm. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (58:14.269) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (58:15.125) Yeah. Austin (58:15.205) But we lost those supply chains. And so for the food system, my whole thing right now is we know the system's gonna break. And we don't know how it's gonna break. It could be the GLP ones, it could be cars moving to hybrids and EVs, killing ethanol, it could be a disease outbreak. My goal, though, right now is you gotta know what the plan is. So when the system breaks, what's next? Like I always think of 2008. We failed instead of breaking up the banks. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (58:33.373) Mm-hmm. Austin (58:38.117) We just kind of regulated them and we didn't really deal with their power. And the problem is they just got bigger. And so like they unwound all the regulation and the whole thing got worse. So the question now is like, you have to kind of they never paid the bill. And so like you have to sit there and think, w where do you want I would be 40 years from now? Like what is this? What is these systems? And also you have to same time to create heroes. Who's gonna be like that's why I love talking about Ellen? Milk and honey is like you gotta show people this is what the system could be. Nicolas Lirio (58:43.33) Yeah. Yeah. We never paid the bill. Austin (59:06.107) And then how do we design, you have to sit there and think, how do we design the system so you can get more so this can duplicate. So she's not running uphill. So this is the norm. So that to me is like what I enjoy doing, but also telling people is like you gotta sit there and think, what should these systems be? What should the guardrails be? Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (59:06.161) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (59:22.626) Man. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (59:23.047) Yeah, I love that. That is I I I I love that idea of identifying those people and I and I view those people as heroes, you know, Allen's and Matt Hatala's and and Thomas Milson. Remember when we had some of his pasture raised pork a few years ago, Nick? That was that was incredible. so many others that we know that that are taking those steps and and really holding the flashlight as we all walk into the darkness, you know, and and showing us where to go. Austin (59:30.374) Yes. Nicolas Lirio (59:38.396) yeah, yeah, yeah. Nicolas Lirio (59:43.853) I w sorry. Austin (59:52.466) People want to see Americans being good to each other too right now. It's just like it's I think that's the I think there's I mean this is also my personal opinion is I just don't I don't think people are that great I think Americans need to be more grateful. Like we have it so good, and like I kinda I think about this when I go to a grocery store, like Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (59:55.495) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:00:05.885) Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:00:06.092) Yeah. Yeah. Austin (01:00:11.331) It's the best of America to meet is a grocery store is you just see all these different cuisines of the world kind of come together and like it's kinda cool that like in City Rabbids, Iowa I can walk into a high V and like get all this different type of stuff. Like that's very and like the innovation constantly. But you also see I you want more. You you expect better. Like it's not I don't want to romanticize the past, but you wanna like there's lessons to learn from the past. And you're like how do we how do we just like improve the meat and dairy? To me it's like and I might open my next book with this, I haven't decided yet. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:00:34.482) Mm-hmm. Austin (01:00:41.301) Is like, hey, if we succeed in doing this, what's a grocery store gonna look like 20 years from now? And it's not that different. You know what I mean? Or it's not radical. It's like less middle of the store, you know, less processed stuff, and just more bigger. There's a term for it I'm forgetting now, where like bigger produce that's better, meat section that's better. You know what I mean? Like just kinda, and then even when you're driving the hype, you're gonna see animals again, like stuff like that. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:00:47.911) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:00:50.956) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:00:58.834) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:01:02.507) Yeah. I I love that. I I think we don't we don't talk about it enough on the podcast, can we should do a better job? I think the only possible cure we could have for overconsumption is thankfulness. Unl I mean, unless like a decimation of the market is the only other choice we have. So we better get really thankful really quick. but the and and i it's the healthiest emotion, you know. Ossi, you ever watch community, the show? Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:01:02.738) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:01:15.379) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:01:21.704) Mm-hmm. Austin (01:01:27.769) No, my brother loves it though. Is that the community c that's the community college? Sitcom? Yeah, yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:01:30.283) Yes. The first three seasons are some of the best television I've ever watched on anything. And there's this character who is very much me. And her name is Britta. And she's like whiny and annoying. And she's always outraged about something going on in the world. She's always like outraged about something. And and I I I so Ken and I are in this thing, like trying to s look at the system as a whole. Where can we actually move the needle and what could be changed? And And sometimes I feel like her name's Britta. I feel like a Britta who just who has who takes like psychology classes, but is it Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:02:08.143) Names all names all the problems provides none of the solutions. Nicolas Lirio (01:02:11.137) Yeah, yeah. And and she takes like all these psychology classes and doesn't doesn't actually have a therapist license. You know what I mean? Like I'm like, man, dude. That's so we and so I don't want to be that, but I think like the cure on the other side is is thankfulness for what we do have and and it it helps a lot. and it puts pain in perspective. Like if the grocery store is more expensive, you know, it just puts it in perspective. I wanna talk about chicken before we go. I really want to talk about chicken because I saw I I just saw a video on Facebook. It wasn't like a guy talking to the camera. It was like a well done kind of mini documentary. And they were talking to this farmer who was basically trapped in this contract with Purdue because he put his family farm on the line mortgage wise to build these KFOs for these chickens. Purdue promised him that, they did all the math, 10, 12 years, he'll have it all paid off. I think he's still not paid off. He's 26 years in. I mean, it was like it was and it was like so disheartening. but what really struck me was this contract. He had a business major in college. Now I understand one business major against one of the world's biggest companies team of lawyers is like not it's not equal, but farmers all across the United States are quote unquote falling for this, but the i yeah, tell me about the contracts with these with Purdue or any other I don't I don't know how they all do it. So Austin (01:03:35.866) Yeah, so let me put it in like historical context and then kind of pull out is you know, it's it's just a good example of a little mistake in history where when we wrote regulations for the meat industry, you know, after the whole Upton Sinclair the jungle, President Wilson doing this stuff with the FTC, is we wrote the regulations, we didn't write chicken into it. Is there weren't commercial chicken slaughterhouses. Americans chicken was a special thing and you just had chicken in your backyard and you butchered it yourself. Nicolas Lirio (01:03:57.245) Austin (01:04:03.983) So what happens was down south corporations essentially exploited that and they took sharecropping. Like this really that exploited model applied to black farmers and applied to the chicken. Here's the thing: when you do an incredibly exploitive model, and I should also say the way it works is to this day, a chicken farmer in America, you don't own your chicken. You're basically a baby fitter, babysitter. You you're given the bird, you're given the feed by the company, you babysit it, you you take out a bunch of debt to build a building to their specification. You give it back to the company. They don't pay you a flat fee. What they do is they see what your weight gain is on the bird compared to all the other growers. Whoever adds the most gets paid the most. Whoever adds the least gets paid the least. So it's and it's also a black box. On top of it, here's the thing: if you're lippy to me, Nick, I give you the rent of the letter of the chickens. You add the least, you go broke. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:04:46.3) Mm. Austin (01:04:56.111) And then on top of it, they do all the value added, they butcher it. So it's like what they realize is, and they try to get into the farming, but they realize that's the hardest part, the riskiest part. So they basically contract that out to the farmer, put it on you, and then they do everything else. I mean, it is like textbook monopoly. And so what happens is when you do that, you get a lot of market share because like you're basically shifting the cost on everyone else. and so what USDA could have done is it could step in and be like, no chicken, you gotta behave like the other meats. And instead they did it. I mean I whatever your politics are, two of the last three Democrat presidents have been tied into the chicken industry. Tyson's chicken made Bill Clinton. And then Bill Joe Biden comes out of Delaware. Delaware is a massive industrial chicken state. Yes. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:05:32.241) Really? Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:05:39.379) Is that is is Purdue out of Delaware? Yeah, that's right. Yep. Nicolas Lirio (01:05:39.69) really. Austin (01:05:43.91) You know what's funny is Purdue's one of the better one? I Purdue's family owned. They're not as like they own Nyman Ranch, which most people don't know. if I buy industrial chicken, I shouldn't say this. but Yeah, I don't want to endorse one, but like I like chicken thighs. It's and it's hard. It's chicken's really, really hard to get good chicken. but to the whole chickenization is Nicolas Lirio (01:05:55.789) You don't want to endorse one specifically? Yeah, that's probably Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:05:57.053) Yeah. Austin (01:06:10.789) So what happened is hog chickenized. They call that's what they call is chickenization. And I should also say the other term for this is they call it the southern model. so what happened is in the 80s in North Carolina, literally a state senator saw what was happening in in chicken and applied it to hogs. So he wrote the regulations to essentially do it for hogs. Nicolas Lirio (01:06:14.957) Hmm. Nicolas Lirio (01:06:18.24) Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:06:29.203) Is that the guy that they named those specific confinement dimensions after? The the like Murphy, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, there there was a I can't remember where I think I saw it on a it was like on a document. You know how like Facebook will run these super long reels that are like twenty minutes long? I'm pretty sure somebody had made one about that. They called them like a Murphy forty four or something like that. They they were they're they were that specific confinement. Austin (01:06:33.487) Murphy? Yes. Well I didn't know they named that after him. Okay. Nicolas Lirio (01:06:56.183) Wait, so he saw the issues with the chicken, but also saw wow, this bringing a lot of money for Delaware or whatever. And so he made it possible for the KFOs, which we interviewed a my my dad, my my late father's original employer was a farmer. And this was because they were part of the NFO. Austin (01:07:06.811) Yeah, to do industrial. Nicolas Lirio (01:07:16.875) And this was their big thing was they saw what was going on on the east coast with hogs and they said, We need to band together, that's gonna happen here. So they literally saw that how big of an issue it was, but they like, Well, it makes money, so we'll it with hogs too. Is that what happened? Austin (01:07:28.965) Yeah, and then like t I mean this is this is a good example too of just you gotta go see things. So I drove down to that part. They did in eastern North Carolina. Which first of all, they did in the poor black areas. And so like and because it's eastern shore by the ocean, the water table is pretty high, and so they can't do in Iowa, they inject the manure into the soil. In North Carolina, they just spray it into the air. Yes. So like Yes. And so you see all these stories where like poor black churches have repaint their steeples every few years 'cause they turn brown. Cause it's Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:07:48.911) What? Just like through crop irrigators or something or my goodness. my goodness. Austin (01:07:59.494) And then on top of it, these are the first models of hockey. You know, there's a science to this stuff. They're too big. So when you drive in North Carolina and out, you see in Iowa they kind of figured out, because you want to spread out KFOs for disease, you want to control disease outbreaks. So they kinda tend to be two buildings, you know, I mean there's certain dimensions. In North Carolina, these things are massive and they're right next to each other. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:08:14.717) Yeah. Austin (01:08:19.533) and what's happening now too is a lot of the first versions are being taken offline. So they're just abandoned. So like that's actually a whole can worms is what do you do with an abandoned factory, essentially? Like you you actually there was a story near Eunich, near Albia, where someone just walked away for a KFO and left a massive manure pond. And so are are we on the hook for it, you know? but so what happened was that happened in North Carolina. I remember t I tell the story a little bit in my hog baron chapter where the elite of Iowa were freaking out because they want to be the number one hog state, because it's all about Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:08:28.775) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:08:35.461) yeah. Austin (01:08:49.367) selling as much corn seed as possible, butchering as much hogs as possible. So they commissioned us study, let's forego the family farm. We want to maintain that. So we're gonna essentially engage in this deregulatory race to the bottom. and North Carolina be and then North Carolina, I think 10, 20 years ago, had hurricanes hit that a lot of these manure lagoons overflowed. And at that point, North Carolina put a moratorium. They're like, we're not doing anymore. Cause like urban North Carolina is like, we don't want this. So and then Iowa just gone whole hog. And here's the thing again the USA could have stepped in Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:08:50.993) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:09:09.761) Wow. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:09:14.919) Mm-hmm. Austin (01:09:19.187) And like you can't behave this way. But it's again this thing of like this race to the bottom rewards the worst actors. And Kent, you'll appreciate this stat on Murphy. Murphy, he a lot of his, he has he built a lot of farms in northern Missouri, but also Iowa. And he eventually was acquired by Smithfield. Iowa has a law in the books called the Packer Ban, going back to like the 70s, where it says you cannot own the animal you slaughter. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:09:38.908) my goodness. Austin (01:09:46.75) Iowa cut a deal with him, and this is Attorney General Brenda Byrd, where she oversees this now. Smithfield, now owned by the WH Group of China, which keep in mind, the largest owner of hogs in this country, cuts a check to Iowa State every few years so Iowa doesn't enforce the law. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:09:47.015) Really? Nicolas Lirio (01:10:02.925) That's what the Smithfield building in Iowa State is for? Or from? Austin (01:10:06.362) yeah, I didn't know they had a Smithfield building. Okay. Probably. Nicolas Lirio (01:10:09.869) That's crazy. That's crazy. Austin (01:10:11.535) So so here's the thing we Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:10:14.119) Wait, so they cut wait, they cut the check to the state of Iowa or to Iowa State University? Austin (01:10:17.457) To to Iowa state, so Iowa doesn't enforce the law. Nicolas Lirio (01:10:20.897) Wait, Iowa State University. Okay, so wow, that is wow, okay, but why can't you butcher why can't you butcher what you have? Is this like a a a law for the jungle kind of a thing or what what what's the benefit of that? Austin (01:10:23.117) I would yes. So Austin (01:10:37.393) So this, so like for in that I kinda write about this in my next book. I have a whole chapter kind of I I use baloney as a way to tell this story, is they call structural separations. here's a good example, it's actually alcohol. Going back to like my grandfather is we realized with prohibition, before prohibition, companies would sell the booze at a loss to get you drunk, and then they'd make them money, but when you're drunk, you do other things. So when we legal and so you had all these societal ills from over you know drunkness. And so when we legalize alcohol, they call it a three tiered system. If you make booze, you wholesale it, and you s retail it are three different things. So like, you know, I mean you Nicolas Lirio (01:11:12.535) Hm. And so every part of it's gotta make money. Austin (01:11:17.167) Mart make money, but you separate them. So that way it can't be you have Budweiser, you have a wholesaler, you have high V. you separate the power. Because it's also it's a poison at the end of the day. And and so you have these separation, these structural separations that basically it doesn't allow Budweiser to wholesale. So I mean there's been changes in these laws, but that's kind of the goal here is 'cause never forget the the Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:11:27.858) No. Austin (01:11:41.202) Corporate like lawyers wanna lawyers love gray. What you wanna do is write something so clear. So that's why I love the Chuck Schumer bill of saying if you do chicken, you cannot do beef. And because there's no, you know what I mean? That's a very simple law that to enforce, it's easy. You can write it in such a way that once you get so big, then the regulatory system kicks in. So hey, if you're a local craft guy, you can sell your own beer. But once you start moving, let's say a million kegs, it's a different ballgame. And so I'm a big fan of that. So the Packer Band's an example of that. Because the Packer Band's rooted in the idea of only a human being can own an animal, not a corporation. Hey, you can s you can own your own animal and slaughter it once you're so big. But once you once you start, once you cross that threshold, we have a line. And like for example, the original, like the way we broke up meat companies 100 years ago, we had a retail ban that said packers couldn't own retail stores. Nicolas Lirio (01:12:08.013) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:12:15.698) Mm-hmm. Nicolas Lirio (01:12:23.746) Hm. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:12:32.157) Mm. Austin (01:12:33.233) Like I would love to bring that back. So you stop, you know, Amazon and Costco are both now on the bean they own their own slaughterhouses. And JBS owns its own sla owned stores now. But I like this kind of structural thing because you wanna stop these vertical plays by dominant corporations. You wanna essentially like kinda confine them almo almost. Nicolas Lirio (01:12:49.963) Yeah. Yeah. Vr I mean vertical integration is like the dream for every corporation where they control it from the beginning to the end. And there are some benefits to it, but like you were saying at the beginning of this, and I think this is like the most important phrase you said this whole time, is like that's too much power for one entity. And and so, you know, it's it's not about the specifics, it's about generally how much power do they have over the people they're selling it to, over the people they're buying it from, where they grow it, the governments they're a part of. I mean, it's crazy to think about like you have so much power that the government's just swaying to your will. You know, you got a meeting with whoever you want, whenever you want. That's crazy. But Austin (01:13:31.83) it life life is full of trade offs. Like you you do s and think about it is sure it might be a little efficient when you get that vertical integration. sorry for the fire truck. but at some point though, once you get you see quality decline, like once companies there's not that 'cause you want you want executives waking up every day sweating. I like, how do I beat the competitor? once you vertically integrate, you get lazy. And you just kinda see it. Like the what's been funny since Nicolas Lirio (01:13:39.307) Yeah. That's okay. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:13:51.847) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:13:52.481) Yeah. Yeah. Austin (01:13:59.302) This book since Barons came out is certain things have panned down, certain things haven't. The coffee barons aren't what they used to be. Panair is awful. A lot of their coffee companies, they're just not running them that well anymore. So they're kind of struggling. they've had more success. The coffee barons also own like 1,500 vet clinics. They bought a bunch of vet clinics. yeah, because they realize people, this sounds awful. People are economically irrational with their pets. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:14:19.613) Really? Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:14:25.949) That is so crazy. Nicolas Lirio (01:14:26.046) yeah. yeah. Austin (01:14:27.569) So they they buy a local vet clinic and they jack up the prices. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:14:31.281) That is so that is wow, that is a that is the wildest thing I've heard today. That is that is crazy. Nicolas Lirio (01:14:31.629) Yeah. Austin (01:14:37.275) But like Walmart Walmart since that chapter book came out, they've been th thriving. GPS has been thriving. Fairlife has been a runaway success for Coca-Cola. it's Nicolas Lirio (01:14:46.121) yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:14:47.425) yeah, I forgot they were intertwined, yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:14:49.259) And they have their new power milk or whatever. That that has like like it's all over the place now. You just see it everywhere. That Austin (01:14:56.282) Young men love it. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:14:56.512) yeah. You talked about that in the book. core was it core power? Yeah, yeah, you're right. I see it everywhere now, Nicholas. Austin (01:14:59.643) Core power. Nicolas Lirio (01:15:00.789) Yeah. Well, and just that that genre is like exploding as like a protein milk or whatever, it's becoming quite a thing, but yeah. Austin (01:15:09.989) It it it's a combination of it's Ozimpic, mixed with young men being really into getting muscle. It and like here's you know what, I'll be frank. I get made I when I'm at the airports, I I'll I'll get a core power. I hate saying that, but like it's hard to get good food in the airport. I mean, I was I got stuck in Alabama when I was coming back from Kentucky and you're like, you know, beef jerky's like seventeen dollars. Like the food is all processed, and you're just like, I just want something. I just Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:15:15.463) Yeah. Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:15:16.161) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:15:23.89) Really? Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:15:33.276) Yeah. Austin (01:15:38.351) I just need something to tide me over. You what I mean? I don't want to pop. But here's the thing, like that's kind of what happens in this system. It's like it just the food's not that good. You don't have that many good options. And I know, hey, I just need some kind of milk product. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:15:41.159) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:15:51.01) Well, before before we start winding it up, do you feel like destroying your career by saying what you think of the snap stuff? Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:15:51.037) Yeah. Austin (01:16:02.673) What what do you mean? Nicolas Lirio (01:16:03.681) the Snap like revisions of like pulling soda off of I I was just joking because it's like you can't you can hardly mention Snap without Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:16:06.161) Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:16:09.575) I think I think it's a I think it's been kind of a I mean it's talked at at the federal level, but I think it's mostly just been a a as far as like re restructuring what Austin (01:16:10.015) Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:16:20.377) SNAP funds can be used for it's up to the states, I believe, right? Who who determine what can be purchased. I from the federal level, I believe it's been more of a issue of changing who qualifies for s for SNAP or how much SNAP funding is made available or how states have to manage it to some degree. But I believe just from what people are spending it on, that's a state state level issue, I think. Austin (01:16:24.624) Yeah. Austin (01:16:48.015) I mean to me the thing with Snap I realize it's just a low wage subsidy. And like it's People don't realize it's not, it used it was designed for like when you're just unemployed, single mom, whatever, you need some food. Now it's like you work full-time and you're on Snap. And basically what you're doing is like the largest in this country now is Walmart. By the way, they own the most farmland in America now. they're also the largest, the richest family in the world. They own two NFL teams. Now we're just basically giving them a sub a wage subsidy. Like that's what Snap is. it's also like a way for like their own employees to go buy their own product. Nicolas Lirio (01:17:08.16) Really? Austin (01:17:20.033) I personally I'm okay with states having some putting restrictions on Snap. I'm not it's it's not the hill I would die on given everything. I also think they're getting a little loosey-goosey with it, like saying that you can get like you shouldn't be able to go into a fast food outlet and use Snap. Like I just don't think that's right. But I think the bigger issue here is not the restrictions per se. It's like why do people like you shouldn't have to be on it if you're working a full time job. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:17:42.558) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Can you explain the you you linked this up really well in the is one of the more more memorable parts of Barron's when I when I was reading it. The how Walmart uses that wage qualifying that wage qualifier for their employees to be able to have SNAP benefits and then they go back and they buy from Walmart. Nicolas Lirio (01:17:45.303) Well then Austin (01:18:09.937) And it's not just that, it's like this is like a 10, 20 year old study. Some legislative body estimated like how much government assistance does the average Walmart employee get? Because it's not, they're getting Medicaid, indirect health care. They're getting there's a chance they might be getting some housing vouchers, you know, they're getting food subsidies, because their wages just aren't high enough. I mean, to me, if you the biggest thing you can do to change America is to actually unionize Walmart. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:18:36.499) That's it. Nicolas Lirio (01:18:37.121) Wow. How are you still alive? Austin (01:18:38.179) I I I 'cause it's just what? I don't I mean that's You know what's funny? That's there's two questions I always get when I do book talks. One is what do I buy? And the second one is it's that question. my logic right now though is let's be very frank, what's happening in Iowa. If things don't change, if the directories continue, the future of Iowa is six towns and a bunch of driverless tractors. when you're in a David Versa Goliath thing like this, you actually, the more attention you get, the more safer you are, is what my mentor told me. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:18:52.21) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:19:03.511) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:19:03.847) Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Austin (01:19:14.927) And so like kinda like the mo it took me a while to kinda get that, but it's the powers that be win when things are in the shadows. So you actually win by leaning into a David vs. Goliath. But it's also kinda like we're at this moment where go big go home. I just feel like history I mean, like we were talking earlier Chris Jones off mic of like that type of campaign. Like who would have thought? But you just don't also so much of politics too is just right time. Like, you know, who knows what could happen between then and like Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:19:39.419) Yeah, that's true. Austin (01:19:43.59) These things are, there's not moments. I don't know. We we think of sometimes history structural where really it's just the right people at the right time or certain things will change and courses of history will go a different way. But for safety, it's I don't know, like at some point I'm gonna be okay in life. I don't know. I don't worry about the safety. I think that's the beauty of America. Because you know, we're not in Russia, where like, you know, you're gonna disappear in the middle of the night. I mean, that's like a Nicolas Lirio (01:20:06.775) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:20:07.119) Yeah. Yeah, or somebody walks by with a can of aerosol death spray and next thing you know you're dead, like they do in North Korea or or Russia or whatever. Yeah. Austin (01:20:17.135) Yeah. Or Russia will track you down if you're in another country. But like I mean I've had it's I have a framed thing on my wall behind me that the head of the Iowa Pork Association emailed my dean a few years ago because we got married in Grinnell a few years ago. And you know when you're driving east of Grinnell there's that massive egg confinement? I t took a picture and tweeted it out. like the first multi-story to me that was the first time I saw multi-story confinement in Iowa or in the Midwest or in America. Nicolas Lirio (01:20:18.028) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:20:36.775) Mm-hmm. Nicolas Lirio (01:20:36.883) yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:20:45.821) Yeah. Austin (01:20:46.373) I tweeted out because like China has these, China has these like 10-story hogs. Yeah. Which, by the way, that's where the next COVID's gonna come from. Like you're just playing. You can't put that many genetically summoned animals in a metal shed. But so I tweeted out a photo and it went kind of viral. And the Des Moines register did a story on that. And then the pork association emailed my dean. And like, here's the thing: you read that email. I know if I was at Iowa State, I would have been fired. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:20:50.001) Yeah, the hog hog skyscrapers, yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:20:50.42) yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:20:55.963) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:20:56.567) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:21:14.225) Yeah. Austin (01:21:14.351) I would have been fired and no one would have told me why. Whereas like, you know, Dale, like hog they don't have the power there. You know, the Amazon's a different story. But like at the same time too, is I was s someone was telling me this the other night and I and I kinda buy it. Because like I the whole notion of traveling on airplanes is a pretty new thing. You know, it used to be like a special you know, I mean they used you know, you hear these stories from the sixties where they served you lobster and it was only like Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:21:16.573) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:21:21.045) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:21:40.891) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:21:41.868) Yeah. Austin (01:21:42.16) Now more people are flying, but it's changed how we travel. You know, it used to have much more regional travel, and now people are going to Florida all the time. And I say this because like a lot more yuppies in America are going to Europe, especially on the coast, and they realize how much better the food system is. And like to me, what changed Barons was I went on Bloomberg's big podcast a few times, and like, you know, what someone could peg as like, this is radical. You're like, no, no, no. They get it. You know what I mean? This isn't. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:21:45.902) yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:22:08.819) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:22:09.195) Yeah. Austin (01:22:09.605) They see how bad an overpriced the system's getting, where it's just like this is not like my whole goal is to like own the middle. Is like it's putting together a coalition, is not being I don't want I don't want to be pegged as a certain thing. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:22:17.17) Mm-hmm. Nicolas Lirio (01:22:23.563) Yeah. Well, I I'd love, love hanging out with you. And I am d I am deeply saddened to all our listeners that I'm the buzzkill today that I have a a a hard cutoff time. But I would kick myself every day until the next time we do it, which we will do in person next time we're hanging out. But yes, if if we you're in New York, right? Austin (01:22:41.211) For the next book. I'll hold you to it. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:22:42.609) Yeah, that's right. Austin (01:22:48.434) we're out east, but we're hopefully need to move back this Nicolas Lirio (01:22:50.345) Okay, you're out east, you're out east. What do you think of Mandami's grocery stores? Austin (01:22:55.765) I think it's stupid. I can't here's the thing. Let me back up and give some credit. It's they realize the system's broken. but the way the government works is like what can you do? It's kind of like what can you do about it? Like, for example, going back to CAFOs and the hog industry, if you didn't allow the industrialization of hogs, you're gonna lose your hog industry. You know what I mean? Like, for example, Illinois didn't play our game, so you know, the hog industry now is all in Iowa. Nicolas Lirio (01:22:57.397) Okay, why? Nicolas Lirio (01:23:06.285) Mm-hmm. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:23:20.563) Yeah. Austin (01:23:25.289) This race to the bottom. Like that's kind of what this you need the feds to step in at some point and establish s b you know standards. For Zor Zoran, it's in New York, it's the problem here is a consolidation of the distributors in the grocery industry. that's really hard. And also like the way our food system is subsidized. Like people don't understand that. They just see that their produce is really expensive. They don't understand that like carrots get nothing and corn gets everything. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:23:47.421) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:23:51.601) Mm-hmm. Austin (01:23:51.986) And so he's trying to essentially tack like the motivations are correct. I just don't believe I I'm just I don't like government owning stuff. That's just like my personal thing. And you're not going at the core issues of power here. so it's one of those things where like you you have to credit a politician for trying to do something. I that's not the hill I want to die on. Like to me, actually the funny thing is his whole remember the whole free city bus thing? You know that it comes from Iowa, it comes from Iowa City. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:24:02.704) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:24:11.879) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:24:18.082) yeah, yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:24:22.289) I didn't know that. Nicolas Lirio (01:24:22.443) Really? No, I had no idea. Austin (01:24:23.331) Iowa City has three buses and they love it's been really good for Iowa City because first of all, it takes cars off the road. If you just students get on it, it's faster to load because you don't have to do that weird money thing. And then you have less r wear and tear on the roads. Nicolas Lirio (01:24:29.805) Mm. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:24:30.461) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:24:37.883) That's really interesting. Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:24:38.326) yeah. Interesting. Austin (01:24:40.699) But it's one of those things to me that to me is like going back to the our conversation over food is the beauty of America's laboratories of democracy. At some point, like DC's always the last no change always starts locally. That's why I say like my big thing is like for example, I want to shame Grinnell into doing good stuff like it bothers me how little local food Grinnell buys. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:24:58.344) Mm. Austin (01:24:58.789) It's just like they have the endowment, they're you know, they don't have industry like Iowa state hanging over its shoulders. They should be doing like what Luther's doing up in decor, where the you know, Luther's been really good at buying local and help stabilizing those farms and then showing what these systems could be. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:25:11.963) Didn't realize they were doing that up there. Just one more reason to love that place. Man, I love decor. absolutely. Austin (01:25:15.193) Luther, I I think I think that's the prettiest part of Iowa. I do a lot of I do a lot of my writing up there because part of my family's from there, but like there's a good bookstore and they like an apartment they let me use. Also you should go to have you heard of Christmas at Luther? Luther is so they're known for their choir. They a old-timey Christmas concert. And they sh they serve you like a Norwegian meal before. It's very Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:25:24.96) very cool. Yeah. I love decor. No. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:25:35.09) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:25:39.349) that is awesome. Austin (01:25:40.345) It's very wholesome. Like a lot of families go there. It's like a thing where you go to like you know, you rent a place, you go see two hours of choral music, eat a nice meal. It's like kinda you know, the chorus beautiful. I but I Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:25:45.789) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:25:49.841) Yeah. yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:25:51.211) Man. That's that's so cool. Well awes sorry, keep going. Austin (01:25:54.545) Yeah, I just w yeah, I just wanna like real quick, is just people, that's the biggest thing you can do right now, is focus locally and then brag about it. The biggest part I noticed with food and agriculture people is they don't they don't talk about themselves. You gotta talk about themselves. You gotta highlight people doing it right. You gotta highlight the Ellen's. So then because the goal is to take someone like Ellen and put them in power. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:26:04.967) Yeah. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:26:11.495) Yeah. Yeah. They show the way forward. Nicolas Lirio (01:26:12.045) Wow. Man, that's an incredible, incredible way to do it. I I love how much you're moving the needle. what you do to me is you're building a base of legitimate in-depth information for people to be able to change behavior and justify it. Now, because it on a whim, or maybe they just don't like looking at KFOs or their grandpa lost money off of KFO, but Austin Freyr came in and said, hey. This is the data on a large scale of why we as individuals need to change our behavior. And I I'm very grateful. I think that I hope that for the next decades to come we lean on your book. It becomes like a high school and college regular book. It it's an unbelievable one. I'm sure the next one will be great as well. we're definitely looking forward to it. So thank you for joining today. Austin (01:27:03.227) Yeah yeah, thanks again. It's always talk good talking with you guys. Kent Boucher- Hoksey Seeds (01:27:04.699) Yeah. Yeah, it's great seeing you again. Nicolas Lirio (01:27:05.912) Man. All right. Everyone, you know, we can't all move the needle as much as Austin. I I wish we were doing that, but but conservation, it can't happen with just Austin. He can't do it all by himself. You know, our politicians can't do it all by themselves, and the farmers can't do it all by themselves because conservation, it happens one mind at a time.
