Kent Boucher (00:00.118) And she goes, ice cream shop. yeah? No way. What about that says ice cream? Nicolas Lirio (00:07.948) Yeah, that's pretty crazy. Kent Boucher (00:10.306) The only thing we can think of I guess maybe one of her cousins could have maybe said something earlier that I didn't hear. Mm-hmm. But the only thing that we could think of is the f it looks kinda like ice cream dairy queen type font. Yeah, but that's Judd McCullum (00:18.626) I can font the font is what I was thinking. Nicolas Lirio (00:25.23) Still some some connection, you know brain connection. Riley Rozendaal (00:29.565) Some some inferences there. Kent Boucher (00:31.394) Yeah, she's got potty training figured out now. Took her less than a week. No way. That girl's a little genius. Judd McCullum (00:33.535) Really? Nicolas Lirio (00:37.822) I grew up every Judd McCullum (00:38.766) True. Riley Rozendaal (00:42.03) Bad news for you. I know. Kent Boucher (00:43.63) Imagine out Judd McCullum (00:47.278) At least she's a girl. I got a buddy who's got a kid, and I think John was nine years old at the time, right? And so we were at the firehouse looking at taking this generator out of the second story. And of course there was like a big panel there that needed to be removed and then we were gonna come in with fork extensions and pick it up with a telehandler and move it out. And there's like there's like eight Kent Boucher (01:07.124) I remember I remember you telling me. Judd McCullum (01:08.898) I I think I told you, I haven't told you guys this. There's eight grown men standing there looking at this thing, like, Yeah, I think this is gonna work. All we gotta do is get this framing out and stuff like this and just come in here and pick it up and the nine year old goes, No, it's not gonna work. And all our heads snap over to him and he's like He goes, You're not gonna have the clearance here unless you take the air cleaner and the the like carburetor, whatever carburetor would be on a diesel end like the the manifold. He goes, You're gonna have to take all that off the top end or it's not gonna make it out of the the door the opening. Kent Boucher (01:22.67) Shut up, kid. Kent Boucher (01:33.292) Yeah. Judd McCullum (01:38.584) We all just kind of looked at him and somebody pulled out a tape measure and measured that and measured that and it was like eight inches off, and we're just like, huh. Kent Boucher (01:44.686) Yeah. Those are literally the people who invented the wheel. You know what I mean? Yeah. The people that just naturally had that. Judd McCullum (01:47.138) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:52.781) Yeah, yeah. Judd McCullum (01:53.666) Being a little boy, he's either gonna be Einstein or he's gonna be a serial killer. Nicolas Lirio (01:56.715) Yeah, yeah. Riley Rozendaal (01:58.07) No in between. Kent Boucher (01:59.15) Yeah, press one. Nicolas Lirio (02:00.652) Most people that you we interact with that we're impressed with like developed a good brain. But the truth is we're not where the geniuses hub and when you're around it is something else. Like it's like, you don't try to ace at calculus. You sleep through all your classes and then aced calculus. And you were fourteen. Kent Boucher (02:18.03) I had a friend like that in college and he's gotten so intellectually lazy now. This isn't wrong, is it? Nicolas Lirio (02:24.544) It is all running. Judd McCullum (02:26.826) Or I said that stuff 'cause I really like this guy. Kent Boucher (02:29.87) Don't don't don't don't record any of this. But he would s at that when when we were in college, he would be asleep during physics, which is a five credit class. And he would he would literally be like this asleep, like falling out of his chair. And then he'd wake up because the prof asked a question and no one else answered it. He'd answer the question and then he'd fold his arms back up. Nicolas Lirio (02:57.55) That's crazy. Dude, it is like Kent Boucher (02:59.214) He's an accountant now. Nothing wrong with this on the podcast. Mick weighs two hundred and forty pounds. Riley Rozendaal (03:11.924) Yeah. Now I'll make up the pie. Nicolas Lirio (03:12.43) The Judd, I'm sorry, you gotta snuggle up like I'm doing. All the all the way Judd McCullum (03:18.05) I'll snuggle, okay. Yeah, we snuggle the can or snuggle in the framing. I understand. Kent Boucher (03:21.378) Yeah. I should have asked you for one of them live wires before the accidentally pressed you. Nicolas Lirio (03:25.634) Be careful, you might screen. Is this little is his thing say mute on it, Kent? Judd McCullum (03:27.896) I might have turned they're hot. They're warm, yeah, I like it. Riley Rozendaal (03:34.678) Usually red. Judd McCullum (03:35.916) I have had this conversation three times already this morning. Kent Boucher (03:38.742) We should probably turn IRD. We should probably turn all three of these down. Yeah I'm going because we'll have echo right. Nicolas Lirio (03:43.68) I'm going to three. Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (03:50.664) Yeah. Alrighty. Okay. So, guys, we're gonna do this podcast a little differently. We can do some joking at the beginning, but for the most part, let's keep it pretty straightforward. And I'll even explain that to the audience because there is it is for coffee time. There is a very good chance this ends up being the most listened to podcast because it's gonna sit on our website on the FAQ page. and I'll have probably a version that goes that drops on the podcast. Judd McCullum (03:51.351) Three. Okay. Kent Boucher (04:03.992) Coffee time or for a regular Nicolas Lirio (04:20.698) that has a little bit of our joking in the beginning, and then I'll honestly probably have a version where I just chop the first eight minutes or whatever off, and then we'll jump in and all of that version sitting on the website, that kind of stuff. So that's part of what we're doing right now. I'll show you the page that I set up for this to go on. It'll it'll make sense once we're done. I think it's okay. It's okay if we don't get through all of this. We'll probably do a part two. I don't know. We'll squish them together. Judd McCullum (04:47.798) through it pretty quick if you want to. If you want to Nicolas Lirio (04:49.634) We could also I mean there's a lot of nuance. And we have Kent. So Judd McCullum (04:52.918) So fifteen sixteen, I'm leaving that to you guys. I haven't quite gotten to that point. I have cursory knowledge, but I'm gonna leave that to you fellers and then the rest of it I've got a pretty good handle on, so Kent Boucher (05:04.174) All right. Nicolas Lirio (05:04.79) Okay, okay, all right. you guys ready? Man. So my little sister was home for a few weeks and she's doing like a cool she's an engineer. She's a sustainability and civil engineer major at Wheaton College. Yeah, really cool thing. And so she has another friend who has a similar degree. And because they're in part of the sustainability, I think they call it cohort at Wheaton, they have a specific thing they're doing the summer where they're going out to South Dakota and they have like an internshipslash classes out there. They're going to the Badlands, doing a lot of hiking, they're learning it's specifically sustainability classes, which is cool. and I I think it's it's Kent Boucher (05:46.605) Noise. Is it a wire wiggling somewhere? I don't think so. I just don't want it to be picked up in the back. Sorry. Yeah. The hardest name to say. and my nose was running like a sieve because I had a cold. I was like Nicolas Lirio (05:51.928) Thanks. Nicolas Lirio (05:59.15) Celessandra. Nicolas Lirio (06:09.902) no we Judd McCullum (06:13.229) Just like me on the mills in a podcast who's horrible. Kent Boucher (06:16.03) Trying to keep the the snot on a yo-yo, you know, like and I think he was too, 'cause it was cold in there and and our noses were running. I remember trying to be sensitive to the background noise. Also, do you do the the noise cancellation? Yeah, of course. Nicolas Lirio (06:30.068) Okay. Always noise cancelling and always compression. Yeah. So I remember that day a certain someone being like, Psh, Nicholas, you only have a sweater on. You're gonna be freezing this whole pocket. There was one guy who wasn't sniffling. Yeah. And he only had a sweater on my allergies right now are dumb. Kent Boucher (06:32.684) Also Kent Boucher (06:39.918) Well yeah and Kent Boucher (06:44.586) It's because your nose is always stuffed. Terrible. You were sitting close to the Indian grass and you were swollen. You were swollen shut. Nicolas Lirio (06:53.646) No hair blowing around. Okay. So she's in the sustainability in her friend who's like apparently a pretty good friend whose major is it is just environmental science. Just environment, good friend of my little sister. And I went, has my sister told you about our podcast? Well, no. Kent Boucher (06:57.462) Yeah, but back to your sister being a sustainability. Nicolas Lirio (07:16.992) She hasn't told me about it. We were hanging out for dinner because the friend was driving through to pick a Mariah to go to South Dakota. My own sister has a good friend in sustainability and environmental science, specifically in the Midwest. Doesn't even I mean, I felt I've never felt so betrayed in my life. I don't know. I told her about it. I mean, she do Kent Boucher (07:34.873) Did she listen to it? Judd McCullum (07:39.169) The yeah. Kent Boucher (07:39.438) Youths are probably over podcasts. Nicolas Lirio (07:41.746) Dude, we're a bunch of bro monkeys. This young nineteen year old lady, she doesn't care about what we have to say, you know what I mean? We're like eight brain cells away. One of us Yeah. Kent Boucher (07:49.726) This is forty now. Judd McCullum (07:51.764) Crazy. I didn't hear a word of what you guys just said because Nick's glasses are so dirty they look like a two Kent Boucher (07:56.822) That looked like his windshield. Nicolas Lirio (07:59.18) Here okay, here's what's going on. Kent Boucher (08:01.634) You're so Casey's pizza grease on those glasses. Nicolas Lirio (08:04.814) Here's what's going on. My the side like little thing that holds that like has this tension on him that holds him on your Judd McCullum (08:12.686) Can't look too closely at It starts falling apart quick. Nicolas Lirio (08:15.75) yeah. So those broke on both sides. They broke within a few days. And so there's nothing that was keeping them on my head. So I tied this string on I tied this string and I used a little piece of tape to go up and down the string to hold it tight against my head. But here's the problem it's very fragile. Kent Boucher (08:26.296) Very proud of this. Nicolas Lirio (08:34.006) So I can't take it off and on to just like quickly wipe my glasses 'cause it like kinda falls apart easily. So we just let it be and we just let it be dirty. And I'm pretty sure I'm legally blind to the justice system as I drive with how dirty my glasses are. Judd McCullum (08:47.724) Conjunction with the windshield. Kent Boucher (08:48.696) Yeah, and he made fun of my vision before we started this podcast. My my unaided vision. All I see is with the naked eye. Nicolas Lirio (08:57.762) Dude, the other day I was making fun of this person for wearing glasses. like a friend of mine. And that person and my wife will look at me like, I just forget that I wear glasses all the time. It's not a part of me, you know? You know there's like things that are about you, like I watch anime. Yeah. Ken spends a lot of time in the bathroom. There's just like things there's things about people that's like it's just part of One of them on my list is not glasses. I don't know why. Yeah. But Riley, what's one of your top ones on that list? Kent Boucher (09:27.758) Things about Riley? the van shirt. The the camel van. Riley Rozendaal (09:31.63) Yeah, the van's shirt or I'm starting to wonder about my vision. I spent a lot of time squinting now. Nicolas Lirio (09:37.092) no, dude. It you're it's the boiled frog. I remember being in the back of a church one day and being like, I don't understand how they expect us to read those words. I was in college. And my friend looked at me like, I don't think you can drive anything. Riley Rozendaal (09:39.094) It's real. Judd McCullum (09:39.726) That's right. Kent Boucher (09:50.772) It's it's size seventy two Helvetica, dude. Come on. Nicolas Lirio (09:55.158) And my friend let me borrow their glasses, I was like, no. Kent Boucher (10:01.034) D you you just didn't give him back? Nicolas Lirio (10:04.878) man. All right. You guys saw the title of this episode, so we'll just we'll jump in. Now everybody look at your camera for you too. It's over there for me and Riley too. Welcome back to the Prairie Farm Podcast. Coffee Time Wednesday. I'm your favorite host, Nicholas Lirio, with your favorite co-host, Ken Boucher. Favorite co-host to the co-host, Riley Rosendahl. And your favorite co-host to the co-host of the co-host. Judd McCullum (10:05.356) The same glass Riley Rozendaal (10:06.825) Years later. Kent Boucher (10:07.458) Thank you. Kent Boucher (10:27.928) Hey. Riley Rozendaal (10:30.51) Howdy howdy. Judd McCullum (10:35.534) I'm here. Judd. well thank you. Yeah. Expecting that. Nicolas Lirio (10:37.41) Happy freaking birthday. Kent Boucher (10:40.91) You got a couple of Chicago dogs or so. Where'd you go for those? Judd McCullum (10:43.438) that was a place in Peoria, Illinois, close to where I'm from. And Yeah, it I started calling it the way you guys call it and people are totally confused that I love it. German name place in the Metro Center, pretty good. I think it's a chain, easy to find on Google, check it out. Five stars. Kent Boucher (10:48.642) Where it's pronounced correctly. Kent Boucher (10:54.4) But as it should be. Kent Boucher (11:01.794) Wow. Awesome. I love Chicago dog. Chicago Nicolas Lirio (11:02.466) What is a Chicago dog? Judd McCullum (11:04.622) You got that neon green relish, you've got mustard, you've got sport peppers, you've got pickles, what am I forgetting? I think there Yeah, there's definitely tomato and onions, yep, but no ketchup. Kent Boucher (11:11.64) Yeah. I think there's onions and tomato. Kent Boucher (11:16.521) Celery salt, right? Nicolas Lirio (11:17.806) Never catch up. Judd McCullum (11:18.786) Ketchup is not allowed on a Chicago dog. If you put it on there, it's something completely different. Kent Boucher (11:22.658) Wow. They're amazing. They are. Nicolas Lirio (11:24.716) That is sounds healthy. Kent Boucher (11:30.648) Well it's got a lot of. Judd McCullum (11:32.174) Where's the soundboard with Nicholas's little virtue signaling sign? Nicolas Lirio (11:37.1) No look I Kent Boucher (11:39.322) My birthday I have organic yogurt. Nicolas Lirio (11:43.722) It's not true. I eat as unhealthy as Kent Boucher (11:46.414) But why probably go and get kefir infusions? Nicolas Lirio (11:49.134) I just it sounds like you better not plan on anything for the rest of the day, kind of a huh actually Kent Boucher (11:54.872) Wasn't that bad. Really? Yeah, they looked really good. I was kinda jealous when I was thinking, you know what, my birthday's not too far away. Chicago dog's out for you. Judd McCullum (11:55.246) Yeah, even for me. Okay. Judd McCullum (12:03.906) Yeah. The good news is they're easily gotten. Kent Boucher (12:06.424) Pretty good. You guys want to know what I asked for for my birthday last year? Because my whole family was gone. there this is a nineteen sixties, like at least I assume it is, like a Betty Crocker type thing. That not that you find the Betty Crocker cookbook, but that you find it like the the back of a package of of some NASA made food product. It's called Weenie Lottas. It's an enchilada meets a hot dog. And my wife is completely disturbed by the by the suggestion of eating such a thing. But I ate at my grandparents' house when I was a kid and I still like weenie laddas. And my only family around for my birthday last year was my grandparents. So I requested I requested weenyladas for my birthday meal. Nicolas Lirio (12:56.82) Riley Rozendaal (12:57.952) I feel bad for your grandparents. Kent Boucher (12:59.63) I don't know how to feel about this. Subtle joke from Riley. Mm-hmm. Judd McCullum (13:07.347) That's a word I've never said in my life. Kent Boucher (13:10.422) I don't know, it's just fun to ask for. Nicolas Lirio (13:11.928) You know what would maybe be good? We need lattes. Put hot dogs in a lattes. Stop. Okay, all right, all right. We have a real topic that I am suspicious is gonna take four and a half hours. Kent Boucher (13:19.51) Great enchiladas, terrible in coffee. Judd McCullum (13:25.294) It'd be okay if it did. Nicolas Lirio (13:32.274) Close enough that I can where we go. So here is our qualifications before we answer these FAQs. and by the way, we got these FEQs from our email, and then there was a few that I added that I know I've just answered so many times. my goodness. So Judd and I have Riley Rozendaal (13:34.67) Yeah. Judd McCullum (13:37.112) Lock it up. Judd McCullum (13:53.71) my god Nicolas Lirio (13:57.698) been ones to answer said phone for hoxy native seeds and said phone rings and it is either someone calling about our Google listing and trying to spam us or it is someone to ask us about one of these questions. And we love answering these questions. We love connecting with people. I honestly like that's where I feel like I make the most difference in the world is like I'm helping people put a healthier prairie on the ground. So I think I do other things, but those seem to not matter as much as as that one. But so these questions we we answer them a lot. Everybody at this table has planted prairie. Everybody at this table has hand-harvested prairie. Everybody at this table has harvested prairie. Everybody at this table has weeded prairie. Everybody at this table has taken pictures in a prairie, and everybody at this table has had to chase cows off of grazing on a prairie. Kent Boucher (14:50.638) So well, I would even say two people at this table have experience in intentionally grazing prairie and one of which has done it for many years with an actual prairie grazer, yeah, which is bison. So yeah. Nicolas Lirio (15:07.394) Yeah. And everybody at this table has sprayed you know, to some degree to help prairie. Everybody at this table has traveled somewhere to look at a prairie. we've done a lot with prairie. Yeah. That's true. Yeah, Riley, you've definitely that'd be all of us. Yeah, we've all hunted prairies. Yeah. I mean, if you define what I did with Travis last year as hunting, then sure. Kent Boucher (15:19.618) Hunted prairies. Kent Boucher (15:31.662) What's What do they call it a negligent discharge? N negligently discharging on a prairie. That was never Riley Rozendaal (15:31.982) Yeah. Judd McCullum (15:34.19) I've only rattled for deer and talk Nicolas Lirio (15:42.22) I was so nervous to not do it. And you know what Travis was super, super aware. Anytime there was something that I could have shot at that was like kind of in the wrong direction, he was immediate, don't shoot. Like and you heard it. It was crazy how quick and aware. Judd McCullum (15:42.594) Clear that. Kent Boucher (15:45.462) Yeah, he was very safe. Judd McCullum (15:57.24) Entire reputation is staked on his ability to sniff that sort of thing. Nicolas Lirio (16:01.486) That's true. It I mean it's he's one accident away from Kent Boucher (16:02.455) All of it's true. Judd McCullum (16:05.72) From even, you know, pointing a gun in the wrong direction on camera. You know, if somebody gets one to that, it's it's pretty much over. Like it's a serious thing to pick your hunting partners and for him to be in a position where he just goes out and hunts with different people that he may or may not have vetted in the field, it's a serious deal. It's taking your life in your hands. Kent Boucher (16:05.932) He's the b he's the best of the best. Kent Boucher (16:25.714) Yeah, you know what we should do the next time we have Travis and or Tim on the podcast? Yeah. Is we should ask about the times when they turned people down. What was it what was it that they tur turned down a hunting trip or what? Riley Rozendaal (16:26.06) Keep your eye on people. Judd McCullum (16:38.058) Ended a hunt pretty fast 'cause I'm sure that's happened. Nicolas Lirio (16:40.758) Well, yeah, I mean Travis when he when he came in, he told us a couple of horror stories right away, which I think he probably does on purpose to like scare us into like, hey, this is a big deal. Yeah. And so but yeah, so we've been around prairies, we've done a lot of these. We're just gonna go through these FAQs and if we go through them quickly, great. And if they take forever, that's all right. The nuance matters on these. but I it for us, we answer these questions all the time so we can kind of get used to it, but For the people listening and for future people listening, we wanna actually have high quality information out there. Now, small disclaimer, we have a right to change our mind. We have been changing our mind about how to deal with prairies for the last hundred and fifty years. And and so if in two years we have a different method or decide to change what we're what we're gonna do with it. That's great. And there's a lot of nuance. There is almost never a black and white. This is absolutely how you have to do it. Even on the forum, which got really great nuanced questions have been coming up on the forum. That's what I like to see. That I mean, those are fun. The nuanced questions. But it's it's often not like a yes or no, this or that, plant this date, or if it's too late, don't plant. You know, it's almost never it's you know, it's it's hard to tell with a prairie because I'm Judd McCullum (17:56.433) Don't deal in absolutes. Nicolas Lirio (17:58.444) Yeah, yeah, that's true. All right, question one How long does it take for prairie planting to become established? Ken? Kent Boucher (18:07.734) Do we got a buzzer? well, I I I mean I would say that maximum establishment could be up to a decade. to see like I think it's compass plant where some of their seeds can just lay dormant for up to ten years. And even then, that's just for it to germ. You know, it's a tiny little tiny little sprout that year. It's nowhere near the majestic giant, you know. Nicolas Lirio (18:09.41) What do you got? Kent Boucher (18:37.752) towering plant that we we know it to be in the prairie. So I just think that the key thing to associate with this first question is is patience. And something I used to say on the podcast in the early days is prairie is a rebuke to us living in what we know, especially as the tall grass prairie region. obviously you go out to the western states and some of the mixed mixed grass prairies and and short grass prairies. There's still a lot of those intact, but especially in the tall grass prairie, we've converted that to farmland mostly. And and it's kinda like a w you know, when you're when you're a strapping young buck and you you meet the girl who you think is the right one, you better not mess it up, right? Because she won't be won back. And yeah, she won't she won't be won back easily, right? That's why they're a high quality person. And and I kind of view prairie as the same way. It's like we turned our we we stood up the prairie one too many times, right? We we proved ourselves unworthy of its splendor and all of the services it provided to this ecosystem. And they took millennia to form into the diverse networks that they were. And so getting it back is not going to be easy. And it's not a bag of throw and grow. It's not a it's not a, you know, a bag of turf builder mixed in with fertilizer and and and put the sprinkler on it and there you go. It's it's just not that. And so patience is key. for your average prairie though, where you got maybe say ten species that you could recognize in your prairie, you could probably see that if you've done your prep, which I'm sure is one of the questions on here. yeah, it's number two. if you've done your prep work correctly, I think within that second year you'll be able to start to recognize if you if you know what you're looking for, maybe ten different species in your prairie, which I think is a feels like a huge win for people. I know it has for me. And if you continue to do your maintenance, you should only expect to see more by year three and and onwards. So Nicolas Lirio (21:02.358) This so Lance Rorta who's been on the podcast and we were talking to him the other day, Riley and I were, he was hanging out with us, and he planted his first prairie from us in twenty I th I'm pretty sure it was eighteen. This year he had two new species come up. Right? 2026, so it's eight years later. Columbine and compass plant. Kent Boucher (21:22.99) Did you say what they were? Judd McCullum (21:25.528) No no. Kent Boucher (21:26.401) man, those are some nice ones to get to get. Nicolas Lirio (21:28.632) Yeah, yeah. Kent Boucher (21:32.088) I'd be so excited to see Columbine and Compass play. Nicolas Lirio (21:34.442) Well so guess what he did for the very first time last year? He burned in the fall. Mm-hmm. So I I don't you know how much of it is like the yearly thing. Because Columbine likes shade, so maybe the prairie had to be mature enough to give it shade. I don't know. I don't know. But he manages it really well and he had two new species come up eight years later. so the rule of thumb, year one it sleeps. Judd and I get a lot of phone calls. You sold me sand, there's nothing coming up. What do I do? Yeah. A lot of Kent Boucher (21:51.426) Amazing. That's a great testimony there. I like that. Kent Boucher (22:04.032) I wanna add something after you're done with that. Keep going. Nicolas Lirio (22:06.454) Year one it it sleeps. Year two it creeps. Like Ken said, you'll see ten or so species, some of those easier to grow species. You'll see Bergamot, a couple asters, purple prairie clover, the grass most of the grasses will Kent Boucher (22:18.478) A lot of the b a lot of the bi annuals. Yep. Nicolas Lirio (22:20.748) But it'll look a little thin, especially at the beginning of the year before the biomass is up and the grasses are up. But year three, it leaps. And that's kind of where the saying usually stops, because it'll look way better year three. A lot more flowers will show up year three. But it continues to sprint faster and faster after that year three. I mean, it for several years you will be like, Wow, I've never seen this one before. Like blazing stars come up year four, five, six. like you were saying, Compass Plant comes up way later. If you're gonna if you have Any shot at all at a hemi parasite. They're not coming in till the sedges are mature for the most part. And those sedges being mature doesn't happen till year, you know, what, four, five, six at least. and so a lot going on there. and so year one it sleeps, year two it creeps, year three, it leaps, and then it will continue to run past that. What else you got, Ken? Kent Boucher (23:09.758) I just wanted to remind people of our native annuals that nobody likes because they're not pretty. And things like lamb's quarter, pigweed, Pennsylvania Smart Weed, mare's tail is a big one. Those none of those are like, man, that's a beautiful plant out there. But a lot of them are native to this region. Now they can behave in an invasive way and that's we're mowing i is important. but when you look out there in that sleep phase that Nicholas is talking about and when you are tempted to say you sold me sand because you're seeing you're seeing a lot of those species that you already know to be weeds, right? Because the agricultural and gardening world treats them that way. But I really am evolving in how I view those things. I kinda I kinda think of the phrase God's cover crop. They're part of healing dis disturbed site. And I actually have a a prairie plot in my yard that I was just in last night. And I kinda let the I I cut down on the mowing a little bit. Yeah. And kind of let the those native annuals take their place. And it was loaded with pigweed last year. And pigweed, I I want you to know if you let it go, it turns into a tree. Like it's a woody, woody, h hard, like could make a nice little fire out of those things. yeah. And this year I don't I don't know that I've even seen a single pigweed in that prairie. That's I've seen some lamb's quarter and a little bit of mare's tail. But y so I guess what I'm saying is don't panic, don't don't view as nothing is happening because it's just part of the progression of there were disturbed prairie sites and long before humans were here. Bison wallets big washout or something from a you know, a ten inch rain event, you know, they're Judd McCullum (25:01.131) All disturbed prairie science. Nicolas Lirio (25:07.18) Four thousand bison sweeping through and trampling a bad Kent Boucher (25:09.91) Right. And th th those native annuals are a part of that turning that disturbed soil back and you know, progressing it back into prairie cover, so Judd McCullum (25:17.196) And Nic Nicholas, didn't you just get some great information about Foxtail? Kent Boucher (25:21.42) Nicolas Lirio (25:23.362) I don't know how people. Judd McCullum (25:25.742) It's reassuring. Nicolas Lirio (25:27.928) Chad Gravy told me, not in confidence, just in passing, that if he could make if he could plant foxtail as a cover crop for every single prairie he would. Yeah. And it's considered an invasive and a bunch of Kent Boucher (25:30.466) Yeah. Kent Boucher (25:38.998) Really? Kent Boucher (25:42.542) It is, yeah, it's considered a noxious weed. Nicolas Lirio (25:44.762) Yeah, sorry, it's a noxious but man the the pheasants love it and it doesn't hold up to big blue stem and Indian grass. Like there's a lot of it in our Indian grass field in one corner where the other Indian grass won't grow, right? So it's either that or nothing. and w which I think is very interesting. but we should move on to number two. Judd McCullum (25:46.222) And weak. Kent Boucher (26:07.152) I wanted to add one more thing to that. Consider doctor if you have a small enough area, not if you're doing like a big many acres prairie, but like if you got a little backyard prairie, consider buying a few plugs too. yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And kinda, you know, for the showy stuff that you really want, give that little boost for you know, that you're what you're doing there is you're buying time. And I've done that with my own prairie as well. Judd McCullum (26:28.94) Not so much buying time with your planting or the efficacy of the establishment, but maybe with your significant other or your HOS. Nicolas Lirio (26:36.462) Or your H O A. Kent Boucher (26:38.316) yeah, but you are you are also you are also build building or buying time for you know, some of those higher conservation value species to be present in your prayer. Judd McCullum (26:48.408) Speeds that up quite a bit. Nicolas Lirio (26:50.1) Is true. All right, number two. How do I prepare the site for planting? We'll start this by handing it off to Judd. Judd, what do you got? Boom. Judd McCullum (26:58.894) Boom, biggest enemy to your planting is non-native cool season pasture and turf forming grasses. You want to get rid of those because those are gonna outcompete everything. You will have bought a bag of sand if you don't control those. So what I tell people is one of the first questions I ask is have you done anything to to to take care of those? And if they want to buy seed from me today, it shocks many people to hear that I don't I'm not real excited about selling them. anything until I hear that they've got a couple of sprayings on that because the seed's hard to grow, the seeds hard to source, seeds hard to clean, seeds not that easy to sell. So it comes dear. and we want to see it go into a place where it's it's gonna make it. It's gonna establish. So that's my first question every time. And then I'll have people say, well I've done a pretty good job with my grasses. I'm seeing a lot of weeds, do I need to go back in there and re-spray those? And my typical answer with that is Unless you're seeing like a super heavy, dense stand of something in particular, I typically don't worry about that at all. We're gonna prescribe a mowing regiment with a little card that Riley provides in your seed bags that tells you to mow on a typical hay schedule, Memorial Day, Fourth of July, and Labor Day to control that annual weed pressure the first couple of years. The first year you're gonna mow it three times. The second year you're gonna mow it twice, with the Labor Day mowing being as needed if you're still seeing some annual weed pressure. But by year three, it's gonna be mature and established enough to take care of itself. Nicolas Lirio (28:29.088) also add for the sprayings that you definitely need to spray it twice if you've got for sure cool cool season yes and what we mean by twice we don't mean spray in april twelve and then spray again may first we mean spray in april and then spray again in September twentieth. Yeah when the when Judd McCullum (28:38.036) And at different times of the year if possible. Nicolas Lirio (28:52.574) so some of them are going to survive, or some of the seed bank is gonna come up of those same grasses that have been growing there and dropping their seeds for 10 years. And what you're doing are those, they're basically last stitch effort coming up. So if you hit them again with second time, that's really great. If you have a yard grass, if you're in a small area in your yard, you're gonna hit your cool season grasses, and then you need to do a warm season spring because you've got that. crab grass and those other kind of invasive grass species that still create kind of a sod cover. They smother the ground. And you need to do so a cool season, a warm season, and then a warm season. Or let's say you're starting in the fall, you spray in the fall, you spray again in the spring, you spray again in the summer, or maybe in June, you could still get planting in there in June. My dad always told people, make your last spring, plant it out so your last spring's in the fall. You can plant right after that so that you don't have this dead bare spot throughout the whole summer and fall that year. I understand that if it's a small area in your yard, not the end of the world. A lot of people are against spray. And so this is where tarping comes in. And Kent actually did this. Kent Boucher (30:00.204) Yeah. So I I'm actually planning to put a video together on just the results of it. And and I would add this too before we talk about tarping is for your first application, it's probably okay to use something like a two four D mixed in with your glyphosate to which has a holdover, right? It has a residual action that that'll stay in the soil. Unless you receive just an obscene amount of rain, or you do some tillage. And and do not use that for your second spring before you because it can some of those will hold up to, you know, ninety days in the soil or longer. And in fact, when you read the planting interval on a lot of herbicides that have a pre emergent nature to them, it'll tell you you can't plant corn or beans here for eighteen months. And so I mean quite a quite a holdover, right? And so, you know, something like two four D though you could probably do for your first application just to help you get a real burn down on because there are some broadleaves especially that are glyphosate or most people call roundup but glyphosate resistant. So you just gotta be careful with that. I when it comes to tarping, first of all you need to understand you're not gonna get everything. there are and and Laura Walter has talked on this podcast before that if you use like clear tarp, which is kind of easier to come by, most hardware stores have that 'cause people use it for everything from broken car windows to you know winterizing a screened in porch or their windows through the winter or whatever. so with that she has said that the The environment created by having this magnifying glass put on the ground favors some warm season plants. I think crabgrass responds well to it actually. And I had some crabgrass problems in my in my prairie from from clear tarp. I used black silage tarp for for mine. That stuff is expensive. And it sucks. And I cannot ac I cannot stress that to you enough. Nicolas Lirio (32:12.258) Black target. Kent Boucher (32:24.792) How much it sucks to manage that tarp. Because you got to keep it on the ground a long time. And if you're like in a place like Iowa where you get a ton of wind, you gotta hold that giant boat sail down on the ground. And not everybody has access to a mountain to yeah, to a mountain of old T posts from the 1920s and old farm tires and boat tires and car tires like I do. Old pallets. Everything that you could think of on that thing to hold it down and the wind would still pull it and it would and so it's hard and it's also hard to get a clean edge, right? Because of that. So it's very hard to manage. It does favor some wit some some species just because it's a new environment, just and so does chemical. You know, things like y yellow nut sedge can Judd McCullum (32:55.958) Really random layer on a property that's got any weight to it. Kent Boucher (33:23.574) can shrug off a not heavy enough dose of of roundup, right? but it it does create that. And then I also noticed I got a big Dutch white clover response and a big dandelion response and a big wild lettuce response to the tarping that I don't usually see as much in a chemically prepared prairie site. So it is part of it and you gotta rotate it, right? you have to, you know, I keep it on there for I think my rule I went by was six to eight weeks just to really make sure it baked everything there. And then I would move it over to another side where I I would kill that off. And then I by then that other side was getting its next season of seed bank coming back for weeds then I'd tarp it off again and move it back. I think I did that for I think I did at least three killings on both sides. So it took like two years, two growing seasons of prep basically before I could plant. So it it it is a it is a very valid way to do it. I've kept that prairie completely chemically chemical free. It's about a five thousand square foot prairie. And I'm planning to do that for now until I'm done coaching everybody up on it. And then I'm gonna go in there with some some targeted chemical application to deal with some of those those longstanding problems. But I wanted to prove that it could be done basically. Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (34:58.274) Yeah, absolutely. It and just because it's not a perfectly pretty prairie doesn't that does it still has tons of ecological Yeah. No, I've seen it. I've seen it, it does it. It looks really great. The bergamot's insane right now. Kent Boucher (35:04.632) That's a beautiful prayer. Kent Boucher (35:10.146) Yeah, it's like basically a bergamot production. Nicolas Lirio (35:12.529) Yeah. Judd McCullum (35:13.474) My wife's about to hear about this for the first time, but I'm planning on renting a sod cutter to take out a section of our yard. I'm gonna cut that, flip it over and then basically use that as some compost, put some cardboard on top of it and just get it nice and soppy and then take it off and just dry and interseed into it. Kent Boucher (35:32.0) I I I would say this. I you saying cover crop or covering it. I did cover crop with oats in there once and I would not do that again. And the reason for that is yes, cover crops hold down weeds, but the whole point of your pre your preparation is to let those weeds express themselves so that you can kill and and then they're they're done with. And so I think that create when I cover cropped with oats, I think it delayed the weed response. a weed problem that I was gonna have to face anyways. Yeah. So so I we you know part there's there's no silver bullets. Dan Allen said that once at a prairie conference. He's like there are no silver bullets in this industry. Right, right. But it applies to everything. Yeah. And there's there's trade offs for everything. And so yeah, we know as a good educated regenerative farm Nicolas Lirio (36:20.78) He was specifically talking about cleaning at the time. Kent Boucher (36:30.772) sensitive person bare dirts the enemy to to a carbon problem, right? you we lose carbon to the atmosphere to to to runoff to all the other means and carbon is what grows plants and and so we try not to have bare soil but it is part of the process for for preparation whether it be using a sod cutter like Jud's talking about or or doing some heavy tillage for that first killing key being that first killing whatever. You know, you can't you can't have it all. Nicolas Lirio (37:04.246) All right. Well, question number three. I'm gonna answer this real quick and then we'll move on. Is tilling or break up breaking up the soil recommended before planting? Two scenarios here. One, we have not done this, but I've heard of it, where someone did not a disking, not like a chiseling, a true plow tilling, turning over the soil. Yep, they did that twice. Judd McCullum (37:25.981) Mold board. Kent Boucher (37:26.606) Cloud. Nicolas Lirio (37:28.672) And that really did and they had a pasture grass and it eliminated the pasture grass. So it was a good way to go. Obviously, there are there are cons to doing that. So that's one scenario where it can work for in as a replacement instead of spraying. I don't recommend it. I don't think it's the better way to go, but I've seen it done and and it went well. Now the second one where people are saying like, Hey, should we till up the bed? Should we soften it up before we plant? No. No, you should not do that. And we plant on top of the ground and we broadcast and then a harrow or or you could have a cul-de-packer. Do not till up the ground, loosen it up, don't do like a light discing and then plant and then cul de pack. Don't do that. that that now if you did Kent Boucher (38:12.664) It's a terrible idea. It's being a driver, not an operator. Okay, I'll just say it right now. You think you know what you're doing, but you don't know what you're doing when you do that. Nicolas Lirio (38:19.136) If you Nicolas Lirio (38:23.444) If if you do that, stuff will show up. You will greatly hinder the diversity that shows up. You'll probably get a little bit of switchgass, a big blue so you know, the grass will come up. Black eyed Susan, you can plant it on a on a on a cement basketball court and it would show up. You know, but like and and you would feel fine, you know, year two or three, but any blazing star you put in there, any Aster you put in it, forget about it. That seed, that those seeds are quantity over quality, so they dissolve in the dirt. A lot faster. They're not gonna they're not gonna hold up again, you know, they're not gonna work their way to the surface. So do not do that. In terms of plowing or prepping, y you can do it, but you need to pack it back down before and before you plant. And I don't recommend it because you're gonna you're gonna work up a lot of those weeds. Now, if that's your goal, you wanna work up the weeds to spray it, you can do that. But I mean, you're you're gonna fight a it's like fighting dishes. You're fighting a losing battle if you're gonna fight the seed. Kent Boucher (39:18.922) There's trillions of trillions of seeds in there. I was just reading in a weed manager book I have here that there's like velvet leaf, for instance, can survives many decades in the soil column. And and I would I would just add this. there is a p time and place for tillage. I'm I am establishing a grass field at my family farm right now and Carol looked at it with me and he goes, I can't that really needs to be beaned for a few years. And I wish I would have done that now. I wish I I wish I would have worked with the farmer who is who's renting the rest of the farm ground around there and said, Hey, could you just spray this and bean it for a couple of years for me? And then I would have had a much easier job planning. Instead I I I went with the the spray and mow regimen. And it's it's worked okay, but I think I just did my fourth application and I'm still not confident that it was enough. And and the other thing that tillage helps with is ground gets badger holes and and uneven spots. Anthills bad. Old you know, trees, you know, and tillage can help compensate for a lot of that. And yeah, you you don't necessarily you don't need to use the mole board plow. You could use a chisel, you could use do some heavy discing several different directions. Or if you got a box tiller, you know, we've we got a we have a friend here who really loves the sidewinder box tillers. And you know, if you had something like that, but I would just say that cannot be your weed killing action right before pre plant. It's gotta be the first you know, you need to have at least one more chemical application. After that, because of what you just said, Nicholas, you're working all those new weeds back up to the surface. in in my in my way, the way I look at it, whenever you till ground, you're resetting. You're going back to step one. So really two applications could be needed to get rid of the cool season response plus the warm season response. And let's be honest, when you're doing your first tillage, it's probably gonna be in the cool season time of the year. So you haven't even killed your cool season weeds yet, which are far more problematic than your warm season weeds. Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (41:42.232) Absolutely. Judd McCullum (41:42.382) We've all gone over to a friend or family member's place probably where a foundation was getting dug, a deep holes in the ground for some reason. It could be for any reason. And there's a pile of dirt there that hasn't been knocked down yet. And what's growing out of it leaf, Jimpson weed, amaranth came from ten feet down. Kent Boucher (41:56.472) Velvet leaf. Nicolas Lirio (41:59.776) Yeah. Maybe. Kent Boucher (42:03.852) My grandpa was the first one to point that out to me. He goes, You ever notice that whenever they dig a hole, there's always velvet leaf and I just wondered myself, how long has that 'cause it's not from America. It's I believe velvet leaf is from China. So Judd McCullum (42:16.408) Honor than Dordon. Nicolas Lirio (42:17.996) I have I have an uncle who had a field, it was red it was clover and then it was corn and bean and then I think they let it sit fallow for a year and the red clover came back. Any guesses as to when the last time red clover was on that field? Kent Boucher (42:34.848) I must say the maybe the sixties or seventies. Nicolas Lirio (42:38.338) The seventies. Wow. That red clover seed sat in there from the seventies. Now clover is a h it's a legume. It's a hard seed. Yeah, but still. And and it wasn't like there's a few red it was like a red I mean a weak red clover field, but it looked like a red Kent Boucher (42:44.353) Yeah. Kent Boucher (42:53.214) And that's and that's what I've been fighting one of the things I've been fighting really hard in that pasture that I've I've converted. It was all just a hay pasture and a horse pasture for years. Yeah. And no native plants left in it. Yeah. Other than the native annuals. Nicolas Lirio (43:07.702) All right guys. number four. When is the best time of year to sow native prairie seeds? Riley, you've been a little quiet. You want to take a stab at it? Yeah. Riley Rozendaal (43:16.532) I'm a big fan of frost seeding. if you want to go back and listen, there's a really great podcast with Justin Meissen, from the Tallgrass Prairie Center, kind of outlining when the best month that was actually my b favorite part of the podcast was there's a segment you guys did on month by month, when the best time to plant was, and the resounding answer was frost seeding, either November or December, where you're gonna get guaranteed moisture. Can you plan the spring? Yes. Do we plan the spring? Yes. But your your margin for nature and and mother nature and life to happen, I think is a just a little bit higher. you know, your chances of the chances of things going wrong in the spring are higher than the fall. Just when it comes down to moisture, lack of moisture, especially once you get into June. June and then you know. Nicolas Lirio (44:12.14) Crazy runoff. Riley Rozendaal (44:13.174) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you're in thunderstorm season and you're in potential Kent Boucher (44:17.566) Which could happen to your frost seating too. Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (44:21.1) But the margin's just higher, right? 'Cause that frosty it sets it in. Kent Boucher (44:25.186) And you benefit from that snow pack too that sat on top of it. There's a lot of moisture still in the soil. Judd McCullum (44:30.242) Setting it perfectly. Riley Rozendaal (44:31.662) Well that's that's what I like to tell people too is when you're when you're doing frost seeding, one of the questions I've always had was, well aren't you worried about birds and, you know, other pests and stuff taking taking your seed away while you're waiting for those seedlings to come up, you know? And my answer to that is, you know, if you plant before a light snow, I mean I'm sure there's, you know, mice and things wandering around, but you know, birds aren't gonna go dig through the snow to get to your little blue stem seed. Nicolas Lirio (44:56.31) I have never seen I've seen a few prairie plantings fail. and they fail for as long as it's not an operator being an idiot. They they fail for two reasons. you plant a little too late and then it's a little drier than it usually is. And what happens is some of those warm season grass actually germinate. They and then they don't get any moisture. So if it's a super dry year and you plant them out there, they just won't germinate till the next year. But if they germinate and then they shove up. So that's one. And the other one is planting and then there's a lot more cool season grass left in there than you thought. You know, maybe you got a bad application out of two or you know, maybe you only did one roundup application, you'd probably be fine. Kent Boucher (45:40.928) I would at lot of times people like to plant with oats and I think that that works great when you do what Riley's saying, do a dormant seeding and and you're gonna have plenty of moisture at the time of germination for both the oats and your your prairie. But you get into June, I would not plant with oats because Nicolas Lirio (45:59.992) I don't even know if the oats would come up, you know, second half of June. Judd McCullum (46:02.85) Late. Kent Boucher (46:03.246) Yeah, it's getting late for that, but but you might get some some germination and or or even like in May or or late April, I would I would caution people about planting with oats just because you are introducing a competitive something that's competing for a limited resource that you have no control over. Yeah. And that is moisture and something that is an annual crop and will fill in thickly in that first year. so I would I would I'd caution people on that. And then also with the the dormant seas seeding is is the stratification aspect of it. You know, a lot of those a lot of the flowers need that time of stratification. So when you plant in this time of year, you are favoring the grasses because most grasses some do, but most grasses do not require a period of of cold stratification. And if that seed has been stored in an area that's not getting bl below freezing temperatures to agitate that s that seed to break its dormancy, then you're handing off the advantage to the the grasses and the grasses will dominate your prairie because that is a very common problem with a a prairie reconstruction is is it's grass dominated. I feel like it's Judd McCullum (47:20.438) It's a good time to point out to the customers that it might have changed recently with the addition of some mini splits in Riley's area, but for the most part, all of our seed is naturally stratified. Kent Boucher (47:29.422) Cold stratified. Nicolas Lirio (47:31.384) Yeah, in and out. And I don't even know how much of the stratification matters if it doesn't get moisture. I think I I don't fully understand the science of stratification. I'd I'd forgive me on that one. But I'm gonna move on to number five and six. We're gonna put those how what about mowing on the first year? And then question six, what about mowing on the second year? I'm gonna take a stab at it and then I wanna hear what you guys have to say as well. I just emailed Kevin Griggs. Truly a prairie expert. I mean, he's stepped foot on a lot of prairies, he's established a lot of prairies, he's managed a lot of prairies, talking thousands and thousands of acres. And he said, I would not mow under 10 inches when I mow. So totally understand. but and now we had a conversation with a native Kent Boucher (48:16.896) Very limiting for people with equipment. Yes. Nicolas Lirio (48:19.528) Yep, because you basically have to have you have to have some sort of disc mower. Bushhog, yeah. Well, John Judson, also a prairie expert, says that he tells people the first year and all the way through the second summer, he says if you're going for a f pollinator flower patch, when it hits your knees, mow it down to your ankles. Right? That your ankles that is what Kent Boucher (48:46.958) John's ankles are ten inches above his feet. Nicolas Lirio (48:51.966) Well well and then I we had a question about this on on the forum. Just had a just had a question about it. And so I was doing some digging on it. So I text our neighbor who has a beautiful backyard prairie patch that he planted from us. and I mean it looks really good. You'll see photos from it later. Judd McCullum (48:53.582) Coming on Kent Boucher (48:53.932) Well, Just kidding. Kent Boucher (49:11.874) Actually Nick and I planted it for real. While you watched Nicolas Lirio (49:15.566) And and yeah, we were nervous first couple of years and Kent Boucher (49:19.144) And it was a su it was a summer planting too. Nicolas Lirio (49:21.196) Yeah, it was late. It was into June. And and I asked him, Hey, you know you were supposed to mow that? I just texted him this. You know you're supposed to mow that. Did you mow it with a riding lawnmower? And he Yes, he did. First two years. He mowed it with a riding lawnmower. So and it looks great. So again, there is no black and white. Kevin Griggs says ten inches. John Judson says every time it hits your knees, hit it down. What I tell people, you at least should mow twice the first summer. Kent Boucher (49:48.108) I'm pretty sure Patrick Kaiser said eight inches for yeah he considered that kind of the growth zone. Nicolas Lirio (49:53.066) Because he wants the leaves to be there as the as the solar panels, you know, if you cut it too short. now, the only other thing I would add is dad would always say he this is what he would tell people. Two, maybe three mowings the first summer, and the third one needs to be about the state fair time in Iowa. The reason being is because you get that amaranth, and he he wants that that's one that you want to kind of keep down. And then the second year. One, maybe two mowings, and your last one should be at the fourth of July and then leave it be. That is kind of a bare minimum mowing regimen. but I mean if you're every time it hits your knees mowing down your ankle, yeah, I you can mow that four or five times, you know, if you're keeping into that. So just so you know, there is like a gradient of different mowing styles. There's no one perfect way to do it that I'm aware of. Riley, you ever mess with the mowing on the prairies? Riley Rozendaal (50:45.688) Well, it just depends it depends on what equipment you have. It depends on what time you have, you know. I'm I'm always in favor, you know, obviously like Judd said, it depends on your goals, like you said. There's nothing absolute, but I prefer eight inches if we can. I know most commercial riding lawnmowers, the top setting is five inches. Yeah. so will it completely ruin your planting if you mow it at five inches? No. Kent Boucher (51:15.308) How how high would you let your bison graze down to? Obviously that's this isn't a brand new prairie. You're not Riley Rozendaal (51:21.91) Under y you don't want I mean you want at least ten inches. I've always heard on native grasses you wanna and this is actually from Patrick Kaiser. when it gets up to twenty inches you wanna graze it down to basically ten. Okay. You know, 'cause below ten inches you're you're damaging your productivity and you're going to later in the season, you know, you're you're losing that potential. Kent Boucher (51:47.534) Yeah. Did you I mean I don't there's grazing in here later? So let's let's talk on this for just a minute, I think. w like what kind of response did did you notice when on a on a more heavily grazed section of prairie, did it favor some things? Were there did you ever make a mistake that you're like, I should have had out a week ago? Nicolas Lirio (51:51.258) no. Riley Rozendaal (52:09.666) Well when you when you're grazing anything, if you're moving animals, you're gonna have train wrecks. the animals animals go where animals wanna go. And you can't unless No, you can't just like twist their arm. you know collar. You can you can exclude Kent Boucher (52:22.146) Make a bice and do what you want. Kent Boucher (52:28.366) Yeah, what do you think of those E collars on a bison right? Riley Rozendaal (52:32.11) I I doubt I doubt their efficacy, I would say. I've seen calves that are two hundred pounds run through five strands of electrified wire. So So it's not it it's maybe it works for some people. I'm sure somebody's gonna comment and say, Well, it's the best thing since sliced bread. Not my experience. but when you when you have an animal in an area, the best tool you have is being able to move them broadly. Nicolas Lirio (52:41.914) my goodness. Riley Rozendaal (53:00.212) If an animal is somewhere for too long, they're gonna favor, just like you have a favorite spot in your house that gets dirty, you know, you're gonna have spots that end up being washouts or over grazed or undergrazed. depending on your species. You know, I'd notice native plants get grazed before, you know, reed canary. Reed canary only gets grazed when it's palatable. There's a million different variables. There's a million different grazers who'll tell you different stuff on it, but Nicolas Lirio (53:28.664) Well before we wrap this one up, Kent, you got a thing about mowing. Kent Boucher (53:32.128) Yeah. I it's kind of a a kind of a theory that I'm I'm trying to put my money where my mouth is a little bit. so with back to that backyard prayer that I established at the tarp. I I let it go. And so I kind of seeded it really in two parts. I seeded the first part was a summer seeding and then there was I think I just bought some more seed or got a hold of some more seed and I like, yeah, I'm gonna throw some of these species into. And I did those as like a dormant seeding. And so after that first seeding, I mowed really aggressively the first year with a riding lawnmower because crabgrass was such a problem. And I was just really stressed about that crabgrass going to seed and and and remaining a problem for me. So I mowed that aggressively, but then after I seeded that following fall and winter, time frame. I I think I maybe only mowed once the the next spring and it was pretty early on and again with a riding lawn mower. And then I just kind of let it go because I was I it was kind of along the timeframe. Riley and I went and interviewed shoot, why can think of it? Kelly Kinscher. Yeah Kelly Kincher. down at University of Kansas. I hate how they say that. Can it just be Kansas University? But, anyways, University of Kansas. And he was talking about edible native plants. And he was like, Well, you know, a lot of the manual weeds are native edible or edible native plants. And I was like, Pigweeds native? yeah. Lamb Squarter? Yeah. I felt kind of ashamed that I didn't know this, right? You don't think about it. And and Pennsylvania Smartweed was I did know that I did know that Pennsylvania smartweed was, and I did know that Maristail was. Nicolas Lirio (55:26.924) Mm. And Reeds Canary, that's why you've been spreading the Reeds Canary. Kent Boucher (55:29.944) Canary grass. I just the more of that that we can have. no, Reed's Canary is well, yes, there is some native Reese Canary, but but or Reed Canary. You always say Reeds Canary. I don't know why it's that Reed Canary. Now you're messing me up. Ignorance. but I was like, huh. Those are native, so they have a role, right? Yeah. If they belong here, they have a role. Nicolas Lirio (55:41.238) I think it is Reed Canary. Kent Boucher (55:59.366) And and the prairie management world tells you their role is to die, is to get rid of because they're ugly. You don't want They produce a lot of weed seed. And it's like, you know what? Let's see what happens if we just let go. And that's what I did last year. I because we interviewed Kelly pretty early on, like it was like late May. yeah, it was late May. You were in the you and your wife were in the hospital. Yeah, I remember that. Two weeks straight, three weeks straight. And you were actually supposed to go on that interview with me, but you were in the hospital, so Riley had to had to ride along. And so from that point on I quit mowing and I had tons of lambs cord and I tons of of pigweed. I did not have a lot of smart weed, but I did have quite a bit of mare's tail. I just well, we'll just trust the process. And this year there's almost no pigweed. In fact, I don't even know that I've seen a pigweed. I have seen some lamb's quarter. I have seen a little bit of mare's tail. but most of the the vast majority of plants in there are native plants. And and I so I I kind of think I do think that mowing helps with diversity. I'm a little concerned that I have so much wild berg because it's so big. Bushy and it lasts it lives a long time. It's not I have a crap ton of Virginia wild rye as well. Again, I let that go, I actually let that go to seed. It went to seed in its first year. Wow. And so I do have a lot of that, and I am concerned that that's crowding my understory from some of my other Forbes that are are coming along. but So I think that if if I had maybe thrown a mow in there in the middle of the summer or something, maybe I would have helped some of those. But I do think that there is an obsession with managing those annual native weed species that forces us to mow more often than may actually be necessary. that's on a very small amount of data and o off of a lot of instinct. just as far as perceiving Kent Boucher (58:18.444) the ecosystem as this functioning thing and these annual annual weeds, native weeds having a role within that ecosystem. But yeah, that's kind of that's kind of my new way of looking at mowing. And I think what maybe the takeaway could be of that is well, I'm gonna do Kent's way or am I going to do John Judson's way. That's not the takeaway. I think the takeaway is my guy was supposed to come out here and mow for me and he didn't. He only got it mowed once this year. N B D man, you're gonna have a nice prairie. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it's it's just it's not the it's not the thing that and honestly I'm kinda suspecting that fire may not be quite the this is this is me. This is me spitballing here, but I'm kinda suspecting that fire may not be quite the the do or die thing for a prairie either. Nicolas Lirio (59:11.852) Put a pin in it because that we're coming up to fire. Kent Boucher (59:13.738) Well, after learning about Keith Horn burning burning when everyone says you shouldn't burn and having the absolute best tall grass prairie empty prairie left in America. Yeah. Riley Rozendaal (59:24.966) While we're spitballing here, I think mowing also I mean I it's serves a purpose and watching out for shade, but at the same time I think half the reason we mow is peer pressure. No, no, and it it turns into this thing where people feel pressure. do my neighbors think that I'm just growing this weed patch? You know? Yeah. Yeah. Kent Boucher (59:37.037) Yeah. Judd McCullum (59:37.579) Annuals don't make friends. Nicolas Lirio (59:46.84) Yeah. Kent Boucher (59:47.39) Can I throw one more thing in there? Sure. mowing will not kill weeds. Don't think a lot of a lot of people I need to get out there and mow them Canadians. That's fine. I use mowing to control Canadians because I can't get to them with the proper herbicide, which comes up later in this conversation. or mowing brome right when it's going to seed or when it's pollinating is really the best time. can control those things, but it will not rid you of those things. And And so if you see a patch of brome like I was dealing with in my prairie last night that just showed up this year, or patch quackgrass or something, mowing can be a way to put the brakes on it, but it does not remove it. Yeah. And and Nicolas Lirio (01:00:32.43) It's mostly about sun. It is mostly about getting sun mm to your natives, which are very short and tiny seedlings. That's the that's mostly what mowing is. Kent Boucher (01:00:42.318) But and if you have an invasive problem like that, you gotta go in and get it out. Either with either with herbicide or with a hoe and a shovel. Nicolas Lirio (01:00:49.998) Mechanically with the old the old back muscles. Yep. All right. Number seven. Judd, take a stab at it. Should I water and or fertilize my new planted, my newly planted prairie? Judd McCullum (01:01:01.442) From my understanding, if you have a backyard prairie Kent Boucher (01:01:04.29) He just goes and like lists this new company's got the C deal in the C deal. You buy the whatever turf builder mix pro Judd McCullum (01:01:12.814) If you can if you can water your backyard prairie, it'll extend your planting season just a little bit. but don't go crazy with it. And the answer to whether or not you should fertilize your prairie is don't. Unless you're you've incorporated organic matter into the soil pretty deeply. It's just gonna draw the root structure up to the surface and negate those species' inherent drought tolerance. Nicolas Lirio (01:01:36.766) Who showed us someone showed me a picture. I cannot No, no, no. Someone showed me a picture of a root system of a of some milkweed, I think. Yeah, it was butterfly milkweed. So that's that's a Asclepius tuberosa because very tuberous root. And so the point is it is a thick root that has a lot of matter to it, it's not fibrous and spreading out like like big blue stem or something. Judd McCullum (01:01:40.138) No Nicholas is just gonna prove me wrong. Nicolas Lirio (01:02:02.124) So and they fertilized on top in between the rows, and the root was like a flat just half inch. Yeah, but it was like a sheet of paper. Instead of digging a root down, it was not what the plant needed at all. It made for incredible nutrient intake and incredible plants that first year or two, and then they couldn't withstand yeah, the couldn't with strand withstand the drought. And I cannot remember who showed me that photo, but it was very interesting. That root system looked like Kent Boucher (01:02:25.09) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:02:31.958) like lettuce flaps. Yeah. You know, 'cause they had dug up the plant. It was it was it was very wild. So there is it does make sense to fertilize like a if you have just a big blue stem Indian grass, switchgrass, it does make sense on year like five or six. You know, they've already dug their their roots deep and and you don't have any there's no nitrogen. You don't have any legumes in there. One, we probably made a mistake getting when there was planting going on, there was probably a mistake that happened. But if that is your scenario and you say I get a lot of pheasants in here, I want to keep the the bird habitat with the these grasses, that kind of makes sense for fertilizer. Otherwise, no, I wouldn't. Now, if you have like strict clay 'cause you're in a new development and they strip the topsoil off in those new developments, which I think is like a crime. But I understand it goes into their mathematics on a construction company that can sell that soil. Then maybe it makes sense to Kent Boucher (01:03:27.134) Soil to people that need topsoil now. Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:03:29.43) Yeah, because someone else ripped up theirs like ten years ago. Well, maybe it makes sense to build up some organic matter, but not fertilizing and then for watering, yes, do not make dependent on your waterings. The only reason I would do it is if you have a small area in your yard, you can easily water it and it'll extend. So if you plant June twentieth, well then maybe I would look into watering once every week or two through July. Yeah, not not a sprinkler sitting there every day. Don't do anything like that. Judd McCullum (01:03:53.421) Nothing like like a lawn. Nicolas Lirio (01:03:59.306) these are these are drought tolerant species. So the only reason I would do it is if you ended up planting a little later than you would have liked to. but I that's not an excuse to plant July twentieth. You know, that's n I wouldn't do that. we did. with our common mountain mint. Kent Boucher (01:04:18.123) And Yeah, we ran we ran drip line irrigation. Nicolas Lirio (01:04:21.494) Yep. And but that was like an emergency matters there were Kent Boucher (01:04:24.856) For unknown levels of success yet. Nicolas Lirio (01:04:27.432) Well, and it set us back a whole year. 'Cause if we would have planted it in May last year, we wouldn't have gotten a harvest last year, we would have gotten a harvest this year. Yeah. Well, we planted so we're not gonna get a harvest this year. No. You know, we'll have to get it next year. So there you know, there was and we Kent Boucher (01:04:39.918) I found a great way to wrap those drip lines up real quick. Nicolas Lirio (01:04:44.662) Yeah, kept trying to mow the yeah, anyway. Kent Boucher (01:04:47.446) Chop them up. Nicolas Lirio (01:04:49.858) All right. What is the best way to broadcast both large and small seeds evenly? So this these questions are from people that understand that you want to get the seed on top of the ground, but it can be difficult to do it. So, Judd, you're leaving here and planting and you're gonna plant large fluffy seed and small seed evenly. How are you gonna do that? Okay, all right. Judd McCullum (01:04:50.327) Into a solid. Judd McCullum (01:05:14.958) I'm gonna use rice holes. I like rice holes. I have planted a lot Kent Boucher (01:05:19.766) You were supposed to say the Hoxy Native Cedar, Judd. Judd McCullum (01:05:21.94) Or the Hoxane of Cedar. I thought that goes without saying. We can get into that too. Riley made a great video about that the other day. She guys should check out. but so yeah, Hox United Cedar. And there's a lot of different fillers you can do in there. And if you're not using something as big as one of our cedars, if you're just using a hand cedar or maybe a tailgate seed or something like that, what you're looking for is something that's fairly small, uniform. And inert and has the ability to suspend that smaller seed within it if you're going to be bouncing around out there in the field because those smaller seeds will stratify down to the bottom, and you'll get bands of that in your planting where those species are much heavier to the point where they could outcompete each other. So it's very important that you suspend all those different kinds of seeds so that you get even application throughout your planting. Otherwise, like I said, and with a with a broadcast seeder. Well, the spinner on the bottom, what can happen is it's gonna throw those heavier seeds out toward the edge and they're gonna be much more represented and form stripes in your planting. one of the reflections Nicolas Lirio (01:06:28.246) Coffee seeds will just go out a few feet and then they'll fall. They won't fling as far, so you'll have Kent Boucher (01:06:32.524) It's like throwing a wiffle ball versus a baseball. Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:06:35.256) Exactly. Judd McCullum (01:06:36.632) And and and Carol hated that. He didn't like rows made by a drill, and he didn't like stripes made by a broadcast cedar. So that went into his calculations of how many how many prototypes did he make of those cedars? I Thor's plenty, but he used them in Nicolas Lirio (01:06:48.15) Not I mean maybe four. ten years. Yeah. Yeah. We still have the first one. Kent Boucher (01:06:54.688) Like I think one of the underrated keys to the hoxy cedar is the constant agitation. Yeah. And if you can if you can have that in a cedar, then that's that that solves a lot of those problems. Nicolas Lirio (01:07:00.962) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:07:08.974) Credit where credit's due. That was True X, their design, the the agitator in there. And so even their hand crank cedars have now here's one thing I would say about broadcasters that fling it from side to side, like you were saying. You can minimize that stripe effect. If a lot of broadcasters have like windows that you can close, if you can get it really narrow, like a really narrow window where it's not flinging ten feet to the left and ten feet to the right, you can actually fix a lot of that stripe, but you'll literally double your planting time. Kent Boucher (01:07:17.624) Yeah, agitators. Nicolas Lirio (01:07:38.638) 'Cause you right. 'Cause you can't and that's totally fine. If you have a couple acres, not the end of the world. If you have fifty acres a hoxy native cedar. I and I'm not trying to be a butthead. I mean there's great plains and there's true acts out there. They're Judd McCullum (01:07:45.614) You need one of our seaters. Judd McCullum (01:07:52.994) Failure failure rate on those is high. if you don't know how to set just Nicolas Lirio (01:07:57.814) Yes, the we get a lot of calls. How do I set this? And what's difficult is they're almost always drills. So now you're talking about needing to make sure you don't plant it too deep, like we talked about earlier. And they have a lot of gizmos on them. Gizmos are awesome. I like gizmos on my iPhone, I like on my cameras, I like on the stuff that I'm doing to record equipment. I don't like it on native cedars 'cause gizmos break and they cost a lot to fix. Kent Boucher (01:08:25.002) Yeah, well and you're you're taking away one of the few advantages there are in planting prairie. The simplicity of it all and and you're you're overcomplicating something that does not need to be complicated, right? So not only did you tick off the tick off Wonder Woman by standing her up on her first date, but now you're overthinking on how you're gonna get her back. Yeah. And and so you okay Nicolas Lirio (01:08:48.654) Everything okay at home. Kent Boucher (01:08:50.606) I ended up by some miracle playing it well. And I I way I way I I way married up. But can't like s ball and he did outkick his coverage. That's right, that's right. I did outkick my coverage. Nicolas Lirio (01:09:06.408) man. All right. Well, let's let's scurry on next. Number nine, Riley. What is the role of prescribed burning in a long term prairie maintenance? Riley Rozendaal (01:09:16.586) I think it's a tool in your toolbox. I planted ten acres of prairie, I think it would have been six years ago now. I think I bought it from you guys. pre my time here. And I actually did a year where I did a spring burn on half of it. So it's split it's split by a waterway in the middle. So I burned half of it and I left the other half to go. You know, because something I'd always been asked was, do we need to burn this every year? You know, what do you do if you burn? And I noticed when I did a spring burn, now I was I guess I think I burned it in April, I'd have to look. But I saw more Forbes. Obviously, your your grass came down just because there was less competition. I saw more expression in the Forbes. did better on the brome. And what it comes down to with fire though, like I said, is it's a tool in your toolbox. There's lots of opinions over the life of the podcast of different experts telling you burn in the fall, burn in the spring, burn for this, burn for that. it's really an objective or a tool just like grazing, just like spraying. Yeah. You're gonna get different outcomes and you're gonna see different succession based on your timing based on the severity of what you're doing. an example I can think of is this year when we burned some of our production fields, we did some more experimenting with backing fires and creating a fire break. So where you're you're burning against the wind so that you have a slow fire, but it is usually more sustained. If you light a fire with the wind It carries faster and it burns faster, but Yeah, and it does burn really hot in some cases if you have the material, but it's not sustained. Nicolas Lirio (01:11:16.482) Show Judd McCullum (01:11:23.19) And you're not removing that residue at the ground level. Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:11:25.506) Yeah. Riley Rozendaal (01:11:26.094) So there's there's all kinds of little nuance. Kent Boucher (01:11:30.714) One of the reasons that we talked about Keith Keith Horne's prairie. One of the reasons I think his his you could probably burn it really any time and you're still gonna have a great prairie is gonna be there. Is because his prairie his prairie plants are have been there for millennia. I mean they're I mean they're not stressed. I mean I'm not saying the individual plants are that old, but I mean the the prairie has been established so long that there's those the plants that are there, they're not new seedlings. Right. And so if you burn Judd McCullum (01:11:41.698) Beautiful Kent Boucher (01:12:00.278) If you burn lead plant in in April, that's fine for him because the root system is literally twelve feet deep. You know what I mean? Right, right. It's gonna it's gonna come back. And and whereas if you got a three year old prairie and you burn your your lead plant sprout that's finally showing up, which is notoriously hard for lead plant to to get by seed. Judd McCullum (01:12:11.254) It's like an oak sapling. Kent Boucher (01:12:28.96) seed or by direct seeding then yeah you probably are gonna set your those young forbes back and and maybe allow open the door for grass dominance. So I think I think to just play right along with what Riley's saying. There's a million little details. It's not just as simple we as humans we love to categorize things into burn in the fall for Forbes, you burn in the spring for grass and and truth to that. Nicolas Lirio (01:12:54.766) What issues are you have? What issues are you having? But I I want to break it into well, we actually don't know that much about summer burning, so I'm gonna leave that one out. But fall burning, early spring burning, and late spring burning. And I'll I'll do fall. Jud, you do early spring, and Kent, you do late spring. Let's just go through pros and cons because each of them have several pros and each of them have several cons. So depending on what you're dealing with and your prairie, these are gonna be helpful. So so fall burning. Is that is the wildflower producer, right? That's the one that the most is gonna help the wildflowers from anecdotal from you know dozens of people that I've talked to about it. Now, obviously there's huge cons. You gotta wait, you gotta make sure that the corn's up and out of the ground for around you. You gotta make sure there's not a lot of timber. well, you're just you're a lot more at risk at a fire getting out of hand in the fall because there's a lot more dead thatch sitting all around on the ground, all around your property. but it will help the Forbes and it will actually, from what I've been told, we haven't done a fall burning here yet. We're hoping to do one this this fall. the what I've been told is that it sets back your grasses a little bit, allows the forbes to come in. Now, remember that conversation with Lance Roard I was talking about we had earlier. He said he burned in the fall and it the flowers were amazing. The grasses are a little set back, and there are more weeds in there. There are more annual weeds showed up than any other year of his prairie. Which I think is is really fascinating. So the biggest cons on a fall burning in my opinion, besides setting back the grasses, is the logistics. It's just hard. It's hard to get done. It's hard to do it safely. It there's not as much green around for protection. Kent Boucher (01:14:35.734) There's a lot of fields of staining ethanol around that are well dry. Nicolas Lirio (01:14:39.662) Yeah, or or even even if they're not standing, we saw a bean field catch fire the other day that it had gone through all winter. A lot of it had biodegraded, but it was still enough that it took off in that little bean field, let alone a cornfield or you know, something like that. So logistically it can be hard. It could really help your Forbes. and it could hurt your hunting season, you know, if you're wanting it to be your hunt. Judd McCullum (01:14:59.61) I don't know about all that, depending on what you're hunting. That's fair. Those critters love disturbance. Turkey that'll bring True. You couldn't call turkeys better than a fire Nicolas Lirio (01:15:03.96) Turk. Kent Boucher (01:15:04.162) Yeah. And if you get a little green sprout up, you know, from some of those forbs, I bet the deer will be here. Nicolas Lirio (01:15:12.354) True, that's true. All right, Judd. So what are you thinking? Earl early spring, Vernon. Judd McCullum (01:15:17.302) Early spring, the one that almost everybody does, that first nice day and the end of February, beginning of March, and you see all that smoke on the horizon. So what that's doing, that's removing all the residue off of the field. if if people are doing it right, doing a backing fire and not just throwing a Kleenex at it and walking away. I've you know, that happens. yeah, come back check on at dinner time. I I've walked up on some deputies watching a smoke in field and were Riley Rozendaal (01:15:21.602) The Kent Boucher (01:15:38.599) Going to town. Judd McCullum (01:15:46.648) were curious about who owned it. So Kent Boucher (01:15:48.674) Luke Fritch had to help put out a fire that someone lit it and went to town. god. They just left. Yeah, they just left. Well we got it on fire, we'll come back. Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:15:58.232) That's crazy. Judd McCullum (01:15:59.734) Wild. But that that kind of burning that's gonna give the biggest bump to your grasses. you're gonna to a point where you get a little bit of susp suppression of your forbes because it's gonna allow to come on so much stronger. not just native grasses either. Yeah. So cool season grasses are gonna come up as as Kent's about to tell ya later. Kent Boucher (01:16:13.472) And not just your native ground. Huge bump to your cool season. Judd McCullum (01:16:23.426) than that. So opening up the ground, opening that all up to to sunlight, to moisture, the the seed bank that's there is gonna cause a real problem. am I missing anything? Nicolas Lirio (01:16:34.51) I don't have a cool season problem. Kent Boucher (01:16:36.354) Blackin' Well, there's I mean, there's enough cool season seed stock around, whether it's been laying dormant, been suppressed by that prairie for a while, or just birds pr dropping in. Judd McCullum (01:16:50.36) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:16:51.394) But I would say like if you have a twelve year prairie, very little cool season, if you burn every year at the end of February, you're gonna start having cool season problem. But if one out of three burns you do in a you know Kent Boucher (01:17:02.594) Yeah, fair, fair enough. But I would say I'd say the one thing I'd add there is is the blackening of the earth at that time going into the growing season is an advantage, right? Because it is soaking up so much heat from the sun. So I think an underrated factor of planting and and not just planting prairies, but managing them and or or crops is soil temps, right? Germination depends on a certain range of soil temperatures. Like when we were talking about oats earlier, you know, if you plant late enough, I don't know what the the range is for oats. I just know that they can germinate in low soil temps, but I don't know what their maximum is. But usually a lot of species have a very wide range and that top number is pretty dang warm. And and so the key more so is managing that bottom number, the low end of the range, when at what is the lowest temperature soil temp that these seeds will start to germinate. And when you blacken the earth, you are immediately raising that soil temps for that specific location compared to the acres next to it that aren't burned. Extensively by degrees. Right. Exactly. And so that those cool season grass grasses or other cool season plants that you don't want, think of Canada thistle, field bindweed, they can they can start Judd McCullum (01:18:13.656) Tens of degree. Kent Boucher (01:18:31.34) going, you know, pretty pretty early in the process and now you got you've just opened yourself up to a bigger management problem. And fire isn't fire's off the table now 'cause you you really can only have a good fire once a year. Mm mm and and some sometimes if it's a young enough planting or just a a thin enough stand might take two, three years before you got enough fuel left to to use fire as a tool again. Nicolas Lirio (01:18:57.89) Well and dad always said don't burn until at least year three, but he would wait till year four. year one is the year that you plant. That's what we consider here. Year one's a year to plant. So don't burn till at least year three or maybe year four. Chad Gravy says no. He said that he'd burn year two. He'd be willing to do that. So I yeah. But Kent, what are you thinking about late spring? Kent Boucher (01:19:21.412) late spring I would just be using that to manage cool season grass invasion. And I would I would only burn unless you had some like really nuanced other purpose like I want to plant something here after I burn, you know. I would I would look at that as what what my objective I'm trying to to achieve here is is managing cool season grass pressure. And Brome kills prairies, it does. but it's pretty easily corrected with that problem is pretty easily dealt with as long as you have the seed the seed bank there for the natives or the existing root systems there for the natives to then take the opportunity of the open door of removing the that cool season pressure with that late fire. and I wouldn't do that We've we've said me countless times on here burn into May to do that. But I would I would just say this, you're cooking eggs when you do that. if you're if you're I've just seen it enough. you start burning into May and you are cooking eggs. And literally and you will see a lot of nests that have to be abandoned because you got a bunch of hard boiled eggs in them. and I have not tested to see how they taste, but But I have seen many I have seen many I have seen many I think one year Riley and I saw a nest that had over fifteen eggs in it. Yeah and it was it was sad to see and it's like man I don't know that I helped I don't know that I helped the c the conservation effort today when it by doing this. And and even if you don't cook nests, it's a time when the birds are are are in great need of cover for Riley Rozendaal (01:20:57.612) Yeah, I think it was a turkey nest or something. Kent Boucher (01:21:19.424) for nesting. I and sometimes the weather just dictates it though too, right? So if you have to burn into to early, you know, early May, just try and be as early in May as possible. but late April you're gonna you're gonna achieve pretty much what you would achieve by burning in May anyway. So I would just view it as a time to keep those keep Brome and and Kentucky blue in check by burning burning that time of year. Judd McCullum (01:21:46.912) And again on on that, perfect does the enemy a good. late season burning is brings that phrase out of me more than anything because l no management in that regard is eventually gonna reduce diversity and the prairie's just gonna drown itself. Kent Boucher (01:22:02.196) And and then there won't be a there won't be a nest to burn. Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:22:05.686) Yep. And I I should say that Hamilton Native Outposts, they recommend if you know CRP has rules, but i if you're just like have a prairie, they say introduce burning randomly. Like plan in the randomness. They also talk about that with grazing, but yeah. Kent Boucher (01:22:19.692) I don't I don't know much about summer burning. Riley and I went to a field day at Grinnell College. They have an incredible prairie I can't remember the name of the prairie. Riley Rozendaal (01:22:29.491) It's the I think it's called like the Grinnell College, like C E R A or something like that. Kent Boucher (01:22:36.16) Yeah, a it's a research prairie basically. Yeah. They have a they have a great prairie I don't know how you'd say it, prairie conservationist ecologist track at that at that college where a lot of people who are in the Iowa prairie industry have come through. in fact I believe Laura Jackson, the director of the UNI Tallgrass Prairie Center was a student there. but they Nicolas Lirio (01:22:38.656) A lot of that seed's ours. Kent Boucher (01:23:05.164) They showed us some summer burning plots and I wish I'd been paying closer attention 'cause 'cause she talked about some of the things they'd been learning from. But what I would what I would suspect the advantage to a a summer burn would be, not only obviously maybe setting back some warm season grasses a little bit, but you're it's gonna be a very patchy burn, right? 'Cause it you're burning green. And I think it was Ray Gareth who told us a summer burn just a lot of smoke and, you know, steam basically from all the the water evaporating in the plant tissue, those green plants. So my guess is you're you're maybe keep keeping a grass in check and you you could maybe do that you could you're obviously still gonna get rid of thatch if you got thatch build up there. and as a hunter, you might still be able to take advantage 'cause it's after fawning season. those chicks have all hatched and they're able to do some evasion now at this point. And yet you'll still have a lot of unburned prairie for habitat for hunting later later that fall. So that would just maybe that's me speculating as to to what could be happening. Judd McCullum (01:24:12.886) I've got some anecdotal evidence that it does induce a little bit of a panic response and some asters and things like that. Just from a planting that's near me. So I'm planting super heavy on Sylphiums and Laatris. And then I came up I actually thought they sprayed it in the middle of the summer, but it had been burned and then everything browned down. But then as I was walking around out there, there was all kinds of asters that weren't reaching their full height, but were coming up and saying, Hey, I gotta set seed before it gets cold and so there's a lot of flowers. Kent Boucher (01:24:39.956) Yeah, that's that's very interesting. Nicolas Lirio (01:24:42.446) Observation. Again, there's no silver bullet. There's no perfect science. You got cons in every way that you want to burn and don't burn every year the exact same week. Yeah, it's Kent Boucher (01:24:55.244) And it's different for what we do here at Hawks. We should always point that out. Yeah. We when we burn our grass fields, they are a grass production field. They function similar to prairies, of course, and they're way better than most habitat around here, but it's not the same as a diverse prairie. Nicolas Lirio (01:25:09.742) Absolutely. Yep. All right. Will native plants spread and fill in over time? I'll take a quick stab. yes, but if you say that spot will fill in, you need to manage that spot because if you didn't get seed on top of that spot, then will it fill in over years? Yeah, there's prairie around, prairie seed spreads. They've every single species of prairie has a method of spreading. most of them have several methods of spreading. they will get there, but that means you need to manage that spot that we plan on letting fill in, whether it means you need to make sure that the weeds just aren't getting absolutely crazy, that brome isn't encroaching from the other side. There's a there's you know, you're not gonna be able to burn it. You won't have the prairie thatch on there to get a good burn. and so yes, it will. You can do that with small spots. If you have a spot in your yard, I would not do that. I I would make sure you get seed on every s every single spot. if we when we plant in a field, I'll let you know right now you got a bunch of trees hanging over. We go around those trees. So if you have a giant tree with big branches sticking out, our tractor goes around those. We don't drag our tractor through those and will it fill in? Kent Boucher (01:26:09.868) So much competition in the yard. Kent Boucher (01:26:26.126) I now go around read canary grass as well. Nicolas Lirio (01:26:30.081) Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:26:32.162) In the words of Carroll, you see Reed Canary Grass, get out of there. Judd McCullum (01:26:36.622) Can't give me a really good piece of equipment right before he put me in a really nice tractor the other day that you probably need to share. Kent Boucher (01:26:42.446) Wait, what that when I told you that? Carol told you about protecting Yeah, the I mean he's he's like if you're planting old you know, someone's old CRP field or something, they have to do a re up or something. He's like don't risk your life and the equipment making sure you get every square inch planted when you come around some sketchy gr washouts or something. There's people nobody ever goes there. They're not they're not gonna they're not gonna they're not gonna inspect To make sure you know you don't risk life and limb in equipment over that. So yeah, just sti you know, go around those hazards. Remember that the prairie prairie will fill in over time. Remember I mean, go back to the prehistoric prairie episode when we r asked Dr. Russ Benedict, where did prairie seed stock come from? Virginia. So I mean it migrates, it fills in across continents even. Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:27:37.646) Yes. And so absolutely will prairie fill in. Just like think about it percentage wise, you know, for a yard, a small area, could be five percent of it. That's a lot. You know, the outskirts of an edge of a field that might be less than a percent. It's not as big of a deal. But in order for prairie to effectively get there and not have all that competition, you'd have to manage it. So just keep that don't don't plant in strips and leave twenty foot strips between where you're planting and be like it's cheaper. Kent Boucher (01:28:06.476) It'll fill in. Nicolas Lirio (01:28:07.35) Yeah, yeah that is we've dealt with those fields. In fact Judd today. Today Judd is going back to replant something that some s another company planted because that's w kinda what the auto was we'll just plant this in strips and it'll fill in. Well not good. Actually the strips are so bad you can see from Google Maps. Riley Rozendaal (01:28:27.146) Yeah. Judd McCullum (01:28:27.394) it's on I think it's on Onyx. I think you can see it on Onyx. I just looked at Google the other day. It's not on Google. It was on the box data, yeah. It is extremely clear. the company must have been mistaken and thought that our drop seater had some sort of a broadcast element to it. Nicolas Lirio (01:28:42.934) This is crazy. Nicolas Lirio (01:28:47.618) What's he good? Judd McCullum (01:28:48.834) Yeah. Riley Rozendaal (01:28:50.482) There there is one thing probably should mention, I get this question sometimes, I'm gett sure you guys do too, is when it comes to filling in, your prairie will evolve. There there are gonna be like I'll have a question like, all I see is like this yellow flower, like black eyed Susan. You know, where's the rest of my flowers? Like, well, it's not necessarily that that was the only flower that was planted, it's that season. Yeah. Judd McCullum (01:29:19.586) Yeah, yeah. Riley Rozendaal (01:29:20.088) Yep. Year one you might see this, year two you might see that, year three and year four. And these plants are gonna form communities based on the site itself, you know, if it's dry, if it's sandy, you get a wet spot. So don't don't see the success of one forb and go, but I bought thirty. Right. Where's the rest? It's it's Kent Boucher (01:29:36.942) Yeah, just coming. Judd McCullum (01:29:39.872) Here's the other thing about that is if you buy a mix that has a ton of species in it and you put it over a lot of acreage, you're not gonna see all those species over the entirety of the planting. It's gonna create different isolated little pockets where a lot of things come together. And that's great. That's exactly what you want. You don't want it to look like you put this into Excel and asked it to lay out, you know, how many seeds per square foot and give you a color coded dot for how it's gonna look. It's not how it's gonna shake out. Kent Boucher (01:29:56.398) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:30:08.62) Yeah, yeah. And then the year after you burn, it'll have a specific look. And then two years after you burn, it'll have a a different look. And and so actually I get a lot of grief from NRCS N NRCS agents because I like to put just a just a few cheap, easy to get wetland species in there. Like seed box or monkey flower. And the reason is is because there's we can't make a new mix for every single place that we're going. Right. And a Big chunk of those places are gonna have wet edges. Yeah. And and so what's gonna show up there? You know, I want something that actually makes sense to be there and it can start to take over in that wetland spot. you know, blue vervain is another one that's just like things that like the wet. And so yeah, they're they're it it will fill in. Okay, number 11. what do you do about Reed's Canary Grass? The very first time I asked this question on the podcast was our first interview with Skip Sly, and he's like, I know how to handle Kent Boucher (01:30:40.195) What edge? Nicolas Lirio (01:31:05.932) Read canary glass grass? You nuke the heck out of like l listed well, first you spray it with glyphosate, and then you can spray it with this, and then you can later you can spray it with this. And I was like, Okay, well, that's one way to deal with it. Laura Walter, who is the kindest lady I've ever met, said she only hates one thing in this world, and it's read canary. There is a reason people hate it. Anyone want to take a stab at getting rid of it? Judd McCullum (01:31:30.904) of all Kent, why do you avoid it when you see it? Kent Boucher (01:31:34.518) because it's w grows in wet areas. And I sank a tractor and some reconnected Nicolas Lirio (01:31:39.854) Yeah. Judd McCullum (01:31:42.472) I wasn't trying to draw that part out of you, but yeah, it little stretch to point nice. Kent Boucher (01:31:45.934) Green canary grass, get out of there Nicolas Lirio (01:31:49.228) Dude, there's some things seared in your brain from like kindergarten and eighth grade and like that's one for you. Kent Boucher (01:31:54.606) Well I I can't tell you now I still do dumb things like wrap drip lines around a mower rotary motor, but mower. but th I can't tell you how often I see people do something dumb they just say, Carol would just chew you up for for even thinking that was gonna work. And I I'm very thankful that I was I was I guess I could almost say raised in that way. But that I learned under that. It was he just he taught me a lot of good stuff. But but yeah, for Reed Canary Grass, you need to go into that battle with the right context of your situation or the right understanding of of what's realistic, right? You need to you need to have realistic expectations. And one of the best things, Kevin Griggs says this. I think Judd, you were the one who actually taught me this years ago. I don't know if you remember this. You sent me a reel where a guy was explaining, this botanist was explaining that reed canary grass, there's native reed canary grass to North America, too, including Iowa, and there's exotic reed canary grass, I think from Asia, if I remember correctly. And that was brought over to. North America and it quickly hybridized with our native. And so, and Andy said, you really cannot tell the difference between the two, the the even if you had them isolated, right? The the Eurasian variety and the the North American variety species, and you you wouldn't really be able to tell the difference. And so that helped me almost make this deal in my brain. Right. When I see Brome in a prairie, it's gotta go. Right. But reed canary is like in places where you don't want to drive a tractor, re canary grass was probably part of what was there. Now were there probably way more sedges also in there competing with it? Were there also way more native reeds, native Kent Boucher (01:34:16.046) I'm missing an obvious one here. Rushes. Rushes. That's the one. Thank were were there, you know, the what we hear all the time in writings from the nineteenth century, cane breaks in there. yes. Was there yeah, was there were there bison grazing it down? Were there things holding it in check? Yes. So it's not the exact same. I understand that. However, don't fight a losing battle unless you absolutely have to, right? Judd McCullum (01:34:30.754) Wildlife. Kent Boucher (01:34:45.434) And and so if you have upland areas that have reconary, which exist, right? Yeah, that makes sense. Get rid of And it's a lot easier to do so because you don't have the water problem to deal with. Yeah. You can't s there are very few herbicides that you are allowed by law to apply to standing water. In fact, I can't even name any off the top of my head. I think there were some glyphosates that were that were labeled aquatic. herbicides that were allowed to by the EPA to be used in that manner. so chemical a lot of times in a reconary area that's in a a a wet area, you either have to wait for a very dry year to be able to get in there and apply it, or it's off the table. Right. Nicolas Lirio (01:35:37.506) Are you allowed to wipe on chemicals over standing water? Kent Boucher (01:35:40.95) Maybe, but how are you getting in there? You tractor. Well, yeah, yeah, a hovercraft. Yeah. maybe can you imagine that? We need some hovercrafts around here. We would not be coming into lunch. We would all just be out there doing like like drifting in in the Nicolas Lirio (01:35:42.968) Yeah. Riley Rozendaal (01:35:45.526) Submersible. Riley Rozendaal (01:35:59.854) The only thing I could imagine you could do with a wiper is if you had like a wide enough bar, if you had a thirty foot bar or something like that, and you could like go from the outside. Kent Boucher (01:36:09.326) And then you're gonna catch a mulberry tree and slap Nicolas Lirio (01:36:13.326) I have a theory about Reed Canary on why it's so prolific in Iowa right now. Is you know how it Kent Boucher (01:36:20.682) All the nitrogen washes down to the wetland areas and grass loves nitrogen. Judd McCullum (01:36:24.472) Well, Nicolas Lirio (01:36:25.186) You know how like it has ins insane biomass and insane seed production? I think it is very prolific at uptaking nitrogen. Sure. I think it is and and because of that it can just totally because we have so much nitrogen in our water right now, it's like, don't mind if I do. Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:36:46.542) It might actually be providing a real conservation service to us. Nicolas Lirio (01:36:50.226) Yeah, yeah. But but I so so you can get r you I I've heard people say you can get rid of it if you can spray and it's not in standing water, which huge percent of the time it is. You can spray it Kent Boucher (01:37:01.747) And it spreads its rhizomus. Yeah. So tillage w isn't necessarily gonna help you. That's yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:37:07.15) The Chad Gravy gave a good point that if you get a really good timed burn and then you can get animals in there after the burn and but you'd have to do that a couple years in a row. Whatever you do for reach canary, I it's big blue stem. Big blue stem, you're not gonna spray it with Roundup once or twice and get rid of it, dude. You you have to bean it for like five years and spray round on three times a year and like you know, and even then you gotta plant a forb on it afterwards so you can still Pla d spray the seedlings with clethodum. So it it is really intense. Whatever you have to do, you have to do many rounds of it. If if you absolutely have to get rid of it, I mean the spraying would be good, rotating glyphosate and clethodum on it. And then wherever you have Reed Canary and you say, I'm gonna get rid of this, and let's say you do through burning and and grazing regimen or spraying, you need to plan on replanting. Don't be like, then the other stuff will come back. Kent Boucher (01:37:59.754) One thing one thing I would add with the clothedum though is cluthodum it does have residual holdover. And so I would I would work that early into your spraying regimen. Yeah. Judd McCullum (01:38:12.046) Can't who gave the master class recently on the on the podcast talking about c reed canary grass with the natural history and saying that unless you could control the entire watershed it's ba Kent Boucher (01:38:21.628) yeah, that was Kevin Griggs. Yeah, he talked about yeah, he talked about the fact when you we have like a big six inch rain, those creek bottoms all flood out of their banks. And so you may have, you know, done your three hundred yards of of Iowa coastline you know, meticulous reed canary removal, but you know, dirty Dan of the creek who's never ever considered removing any reed canary from his place if it if it's already gone to seed and you get that heavy rain, it just brings all of his seed stock and plants it right into your C R P and so you kinda have to just learn to live with it in in my opinion. Riley Rozendaal (01:39:05.208) Don't be upset if you fail. It it happens to all of us. Kent Boucher (01:39:08.856) Yeah, in fact if you if if if it's if you hate it 'cause it has ruined all your hunting habitat value, maybe you just need to have less corn and extend your prairie out from the Reed Canary. Judd McCullum (01:39:23.17) We w what did we drive across the other day? Was that the you said it was the delta of the Des Moines River? Is that what that was? And those islands that have formed? Nicolas Lirio (01:39:30.796) No, the the Red Rock. Red Rock. Red Rock lake reservoir. It's it's Iowa's largest lake, but it's a technically reservoir. Judd McCullum (01:39:38.178) Was there was there Reed Canary there before the tree started coming up? I know you probably didn't get a close enough look at it, but do suppose it could have been? Nicolas Lirio (01:39:45.848) Yeah. I'm sure there I that Kent Boucher (01:39:46.646) I'm sure that's Riley Rozendaal (01:39:48.296) Well, it was the Des Moines River before it was the Red Rock Reservoir, so I'm sure there was a heck of a lot of remote. Judd McCullum (01:39:54.422) Can I Well, 'cause you were saying it was just bare and wide open for a long time and then the last Nicolas Lirio (01:39:58.496) Yeah, so so not the thousand or not the the mile long bridge, but the other shorter bridge on fourteen where you guys cry and there's like kind of a delta there. I remember growing up in those trees not being nearly the size they are. Like it was mostly water in there. Well and that's just how much erosion has come in and created these. Kent Boucher (01:40:19.4) Yeah, so that you were born after then. Okay. Well, but you were still born in I guess how when w how old were you when you moved to this area? Nicolas Lirio (01:40:28.053) nineteen ninety nine. Kent Boucher (01:40:29.654) That's when that's when you kinda remember. Nicolas Lirio (01:40:31.68) No, I'm re I'm thinking really early two thousands. Kent Boucher (01:40:35.372) Well, I mean, there's still I mean, the flood of ninety three was was unbelievable. The high water marks. You just can't fathom it. You like look at that and you're like, It was that high? And but that means all these houses that are here would have been like under ten feet under that. Yeah what I mean. It's like Nicolas Lirio (01:40:41.152) I've seen the I've seen the Mars. Nicolas Lirio (01:40:47.648) At all. Nicolas Lirio (01:40:55.96) Yeah, it was such a big deal we got a shout out in the movie Bugs Life. really? Yeah, yeah. At the beginning. This is worse than the stick of ninety-three. And they were referencing Iowa's Floods like a national. Kent Boucher (01:41:06.606) But but my guess is that area was still, you know, being a decade later, was still recovering from such a scoured out. Judd McCullum (01:41:16.484) Nicolas Lirio (01:41:17.07) okay, okay. But you're right. You that makes sense. I was telling Judd, I was like, this what this wasn't like this was not filled with this tree foliage like it is now when I was a kid. I don't know why this delta, and they're all like young little trees, but there's like these islands that are being being made. And anyway, I we don't have to get into that. So let's move on to number twelve, Canada thistle. How do we get more Canada thistle on the ground? A lot of people asking that. Kent Boucher (01:41:19.629) Surely enough. Judd McCullum (01:41:35.34) Stuck in my head. Kent Boucher (01:41:44.716) Well it they it produces a lot of seed and those just like dandelions, you know, those seeds are th they're wind transfer. Yeah, they're they're tiny and and very light and fluffy, so and they they grow not only by seed but on a rhizome so they form these large patches and three Judd McCullum (01:41:55.052) Dan Y and C. Judd McCullum (01:42:07.71) Usually an indication of compaction. That's usually why they're there because nothing else is gonna gross. They do serve a purpose. Kent Boucher (01:42:14.638) Those roots kinda bust up the soil a little bit. Riley Rozendaal (01:42:17.064) Shoot a big old tap rut. Kent Boucher (01:42:18.914) down yeah and and you they are roundup resistant I would even say immu immune. They are two four D resistant although two four D will will defoliate them kind of you know cause them to shrivel and wilt. but it like Riley said it does not kill that deep tap root. No. we have managed them historically here at Hoxy with defoliant Nicolas Lirio (01:42:47.296) Some of the most toxic chemicals that humans make and are allowed to spread. Kent Boucher (01:42:50.988) And we do not use them anymore. No, we and the I would liken the use of those products as mowing them off. it takes it took care of what was above the surface a and maybe some like real young, like new young of the year plants, little sprouts probably killed them. but it did not by any means alleviate the problem. Yeah. And Nicolas Lirio (01:42:52.674) Do not like that stuff. Kent Boucher (01:43:17.964) I it it was only a control measure like mowing is. Mm-hmm. Nicolas Lirio (01:43:21.014) And d and just to be totally transparent, like when we clean seed and send it in for a test, there occasionally we get some noxious weeds that pop in, like foxtail or some Pennsylvania smart weed, which is technically native and and in a grandstanding prairie is almost never an issue. Nicolas Lirio (01:43:42.83) That's what I'm saying. That one never comes in our noxious weed. Like I see all our seed tests. It does not flow. Judd McCullum (01:43:48.271) I've Riley Rozendaal (01:43:48.694) I've never seen I've looked at hundreds of seed tests from here and I've never seen Canada. Kent Boucher (01:43:53.656) No, the reason the reason for that is A, we do our best to control it, but also B, we use fanning mills to clean and the fan part like Judd was saying, they're lighter than dandelions. They're they're they're tiny little tiny little seeds that just they'll blow right out of the seed cleaner. So it's not it's not really a concern for that. It's just a concern that it does kind of choke out areas of your prairie and and there isn't a farm in Iowa that doesn't have some some candid thistle. And if you don't have it Stay humble because it's gonna be there soon. Yeah. Yeah. it moves it moves around the landscape and it takes a stronghold. So really it is one of those things where if you were going to try and remove it without using a herbicide. I I think you could maybe try to dig at the taproots. Yeah, but I'm telling you, a patch of a scan of thistle is gonna have Judd McCullum (01:44:39.906) Very tough. Judd McCullum (01:44:44.654) Constant repeated pressure. Kent Boucher (01:44:52.13) hundreds of individual plants. And so it just really I c I can't imagine that being a a a an even a feasible Judd McCullum (01:45:01.442) So the tissues store a tremendous amount of energy. So in my previous career, I managed a four acre woodlot. And there were years when up to, you know, a third of that was probably a solid stand of Canada thistle that you couldn't do anything but drive a machine through. And so I resolved that I was gonna try to figure out how to get rid of that. And the best thing and this did work, after three years, I completely eliminated the Canada thistle. I would go through and just you know, in the evening, if it was slow, I would walk through it there with a pair of hand clippers and cut right underneath the buds before they even started to flower. And that's the important part because if you knock those off lower, I just mentioned that there's a tremendous amount of energy in the vascular tissues of that plant. It can lay on the ground and set seed from a bud. So you want to take all that away from it by clipping those flowers off. And I'm talking about small projects. This is an elbow grease thing. Clip those off and then you can go through and either mow it or And then that will translocate down into that tap root, kill it. And after a fairly short period of time, now this four acres was in the middle of thousands of acres of of row crop, so there wasn't a lot of intrusion from the outside, but it's to this day is completely gone. Kent Boucher (01:46:23.212) Yeah, that's that's a that's a good success story. I I would recommend using milestone. Yeah. Judd McCullum (01:46:30.922) It translocates much faster and then it takes a little bit to take action. Kent Boucher (01:46:34.89) And it's it's not as like triclopeers, you don't want to get that on you. Like that's it's got yeah, it's got it's got some it's it's it's yeah, it's it's a little bit nastier for just human handling. Yep. Milestone's pretty pretty you read the label on it and and it's it's not bad. Drinkable and and it works well on on on Canadians. and then I would you could also look at a product called Duracore. Judd McCullum (01:46:40.888) We don't want to get anything. Kent Boucher (01:47:04.514) The problem with Duracore is it kills everything kind of like triclopeer and it it can have a long, you know, holdover in in that area. And so, those are those are some considerations though as well to you know when you when you look at your pro Nicolas Lirio (01:47:20.338) There's a reason the weeds we're talking about are on this list. It's because there's not an easy solution. There's not a quick solution. There's not a guaranteed solution. It it is a these are difficult to get rid of. Judd McCullum (01:47:32.344) Diligent Snellbook. Kent Boucher (01:47:33.408) And if you're gonna do herbicide, it's better to get early. Yeah. But don't d I mean that's that's for anything. Like if you're gonna spray off a you know, your annual rye cover crop, you you're better off spraying it when it's, you know, calf high as opposed to chest high. Judd McCullum (01:47:50.722) And don't think follow the label on all those. Don't think that doubling the rate is gonna do you any good because it by some off chance a segment of that population survives. You just created a insane amount of resistance. Riley Rozendaal (01:48:02.38) Well, and one other thing to keep in mind when you're talking about managing Canada thistles is you can exacerbate a small problem and make it a big one by like overgrazing or over mowing at the wrong time. You know, if you if you have a lot of immature plants that are gonna become Canadians and you open up that that overstory, you know, whether that be letting in a lot of animals, you know There's been there's been talk about invasive weeds in the regenerative grazing community. And if you do a really targeted grazing in a spot where you've got an unpalatable weed with barbs in it like Canada does, you're Yeah, you're you're opening up the overstory and you're creating a scenario where your Canon Canadians are just gonna thrive. Judd McCullum (01:48:48.622) Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:48:56.622) Yeah, you're funneling resources to it. Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:48:58.926) Absolutely. Judd McCullum (01:48:59.348) And a note, your native your native thistles have a silver underside, so they're just Kent Boucher (01:49:03.726) Good. Nicolas Lirio (01:49:04.204) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're really cool. They got like a white underside. Right? Yep. Yep. Kent Boucher (01:49:06.862) Field thistle, right? Seed very valuable. So if you got some field thistle. Nicolas Lirio (01:49:11.724) Yeah. The I've I've been asked for it before. It's it's just hard to get a hold of. You know, there's some people that'll hand harvest it, but and I don't I don't wanna ha I don't wanna hand harvest it. it makes sense why it costs a lot and I'm happy to pay them when we can find it. All right, Riley, question number thirteen. What do I do about brushy encroachment? Kent Boucher (01:49:21.366) Yeah, well Riley Rozendaal (01:49:21.954) Yeah, I don't know. Riley Rozendaal (01:49:32.212) so for brush encroachment, I've got an opinion and it might run a little counter to some other people. I'm a fan of the elbow grease method. Now, when it comes down to woody encroachment, if you have a large area like a forty, fifty acre field, you know that's it's hard to manage, but most people when they see small trees coming up, whether it be eastern red cedars. Nicolas Lirio (01:50:00.462) I'm gonna pause you. Kent Boucher (01:50:02.53) How did that happen? That hasn't happened in forever. Judd McCullum (01:50:05.27) Well, it just c came on a little bit ago. Kent Boucher (01:50:07.736) This is I'm glad we didn't stop this now we're working through all of them while we're all sitting here. Yeah. I know it's a big lift, the Judd McCullum (01:50:14.86) The reels. The reels, Nicholas. Nicolas Lirio (01:50:17.206) It's gonna be a it's gonna be a big ordeal, you know what I mean? it like Riley Rozendaal (01:50:27.874) Get another order. Judd McCullum (01:50:29.588) Does. Yeah. Riley Rozendaal (01:50:33.07) How many pounds is it, Tim? You are over Tim Tim Tim. Twenty five pounds. All right. Going to Michigan. Port Hope. Nicolas Lirio (01:50:44.098) You over you? You're not over you. Riley Rozendaal (01:50:46.286) The one the one in the middle of the room is the one overheating? Weird. Judd McCullum (01:50:47.691) I thought we were talking about the Riley Rozendaal (01:50:56.088) Weird, weird, weird. Riley Rozendaal (01:51:08.374) I listened to Rush Hour Ag for all three episodes. I listened to Rush Hour Ag so much on accident that now when my podcast runs up it automatically goes to Rush Hour Ag Kent Boucher (01:51:19.421) so you listen to Rob Riley Rozendaal (01:51:22.038) Yeah. Rob Sands. Rob Sands. You're gonna have you're gonna have a gubernatorial candidate on the podcast and you're gonna call him to his face Rob Sands. Kent Boucher (01:51:25.08) Plural. That's right. Kent Boucher (01:51:32.878) That guy was a doofus. and it only gets confirmed more with each interview that guy is so Riley Rozendaal (01:51:38.062) Louis Louise Unbaugh. Yeah, that that kind of made me angry. I'm not a Judd McCullum (01:51:41.262) Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:51:46.86) Yeah, at least know the guy's name. Nicolas Lirio (01:51:50.328) Alright, we're gonna try this try and finish this out. I got fan running on it. Which are pretty magical. Alrighty, we'll jump back in. so Riley, you were saying you've got opinions. Riley Rozendaal (01:52:04.302) Woody encroachment. So the gut reaction when somebody plants a prairie and they're on year, let's say, five, six, seven, something like that, they start to see these little saplings, whether it be eastern red cedars, whether it be mulberries, willows, whatever, what have you. You you get olive. Yeah, autumn all I hate autumn olive. I could I could write a book on that. But you see this woody encroachment coming in and people's gut reaction is, well, I can see it. It's kind of like weeds and mowing. Well if I take a brush hog out there and I grind it down really close to the ground, it looks good. It's just like mowing your yard with the dandelions. You know, you go out there and you cut them all down and you go you look over and you go, wow, I really did something. And then about three weeks pass. So those bushes, when they when you mow the top off of them, Judd McCullum (01:52:53.27) Sneaky little bush. Riley Rozendaal (01:53:00.01) Nature's response is to become a bush. A tree becomes a bush. And so it just shoots suckers, is what they call them out at at the base. So the tree goes, okay, well, I can't grow up and in, you know, three trunks. You know, I'm no arborist here, but but it grows a million suckers and they point in every direction and they grow flat and wide, basically. And now you've created this huge problem. Because when these if you talk about autumn olive and other small trees like that and woody brush, when you mow so much they create suckers. They grow into a shrub like thing. And if you want to come back in later and cut with a chainsaw, you have to cut Kent Boucher (01:53:48.266) Eight suckers. Riley Rozendaal (01:53:51.47) Yeah. You you try cutting it all and you're treating it with herbicide and it's a big mess. Judd McCullum (01:53:55.894) And now it's growing so low you can't hit all of it with a brush hog and now you're making it even worse when you go back over. Kent Boucher (01:54:01.71) And you make pungy sticks when you do that too. For your tires. Judd McCullum (01:54:05.186) Yeah. Riley Rozendaal (01:54:06.126) Personally, if you can I'm a big fan of those battery powered loppers that they sell now. and Judd McCullum (01:54:18.506) I've never seen those. I have some in my truck, I think they're amazing. Riley Rozendaal (01:54:21.474) They're battery powered loppers. They're good for anything up to like an inch and three quarter usually is what most of the Milwaukee DeWalt brands are. You can cut something like that and you can spot treat with an herbicide. I know we've talked about tordon. There's a lot of different chemicals out there for spot treating woody brush, but Nicolas Lirio (01:54:40.567) so you're talking about going out there, handcuffed and Judd McCullum (01:54:44.224) True. Riley Rozendaal (01:54:46.946) Because brush hogging is it it's a strategy. Kent Boucher (01:54:53.282) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:54:54.446) What about goats? Riley Rozendaal (01:54:55.98) Well yeah, goats and sheep. I'm talking I I guess what I was more talking about is the the the landowner that has prairie that has no grazing pressure, no that just it it sits. you could also do targeted burns. Yeah. You know, burns help with woody encroachment. Kent Boucher (01:55:00.302) Far less common practice. Kent Boucher (01:55:13.046) But I and I will say this, that is something I noticed. glad you brought that up, Riley. That is something I've noticed in my planting where I deferred the mowing. you know, I after we talked with Kelly last year. I have a lot of saplings in my prairie, just from my yard. From I think it's literally we have a lot of mulberry trees in our yard and we we pick mulberries and we eat mulberries and and things like that. But so do the birds and the birds like to go land on my prairie and crap out seeds and drop seeds in my prairie and and b even in your yard you're gonna get trees. Mm-hmm. Judd McCullum (01:55:48.312) Berries are designed to do be made. Nicolas Lirio (01:55:51.842) Man. So I know burning helps. It obviously doesn't cure it. of like if you have a ten, you know, five or bigger acre area, you're gonna have just numbers wise, you're gonna have trees that squeak by and they get big enough to get to the next year where they're at the point where burnings hurt it but don't kill and that Kent Boucher (01:56:15.094) Like August, September, October the best months for doing this, right? They're starting to return nutrients back for Judd McCullum (01:56:18.69) Certain ends of life. Riley Rozendaal (01:56:21.526) Or before the sap goes back down. Judd McCullum (01:56:23.276) And especially for locusts too, if you're dealing with locusts. Nicolas Lirio (01:56:25.974) And so so what you can do then is if you burn, you'll eliminate most of them and then you'll just have several that you can go and and treat with elbow grease. but also the I know that honeysuckle, autumn olive, Adam Lavina. Now this is specifically in woodland areas or edge prairies, he'll have he'll go in there, they'll graze And those trees are or shrubs are prolific for a reason. So then a few weeks later or a couple months later they'll shoot suckers back up. Then he'll re bring in the goats because that was kind of the that plants like exactly and then the goats will go in and be like, Ooh, you know, small area. Kent Boucher (01:57:07.638) and that's very nutrient dense. Judd McCullum (01:57:10.028) Yep. Browse. Yeah. Riley Rozendaal (01:57:11.922) One other thing I should mention though too when it comes down to eastern red cedars is you don't need to treat eastern red cedars with herbicide. So if you as long as you cut an eastern red cedar below the bottom needle. That's done. then they're then they'll die. Judd McCullum (01:57:18.702) They don't store a lot of energy at all. No. Kent Boucher (01:57:21.057) I did not know that. Judd McCullum (01:57:29.806) Shallow. Yeah, there's nothing down there. And then if we want to scale up and talk about mechanical removal with machinery, hire a contractor, have them come in, make sure they understand. and this is more like edge, you probably wouldn't want to do this in your prairie because there's a tilling aspect to it. But with a with a forestry mulching head, there are two flat spots on that machine. The bottom one keeps the cutter head above ground. It flush cuts. There's a second flat spot toward the front of that machine that operators hate to use because it puts a tremendous amount of wear on the carbide teeth on that machine. And every six hundred hours, those need changed. I think it's about twelve to fourteen hundred dollars. It might be even more expensive now to change a full set of those teeth plus the the day it takes to do it. And then you're gonna want to have that operator rotate that head down to that second flat spot and get it into the dirt remove. all the root crowns of those plants. If your operator doesn't do that, if he hasn't factored that into the price, he is banking on job security coming back in a couple of years. So that there's that. I don't know, I want to get on my soapbox about Tordon. I say this to almost everybody. If I pipe up on Native Habitat Manager's Facebook group, it's ninety percent of the times to say this. Tordon Kent Boucher (01:58:35.318) That's it. Kent Boucher (01:58:47.79) Ten percent it's miscanthus. Judd McCullum (01:58:50.91) Yeah, they do a pretty good job of keeping that talk down on there, but Tordon belongs in a working fence line. And only in a working fence line. I still am sitting on pins and needles because as a you know, an enthusiastic wannabe land manager over a decade ago, I went in and did hack and squirt on a bunch of elm trees and other low value trees in one of my biggest stands of mature oaks on our properties. And I'm just watching those trees year by year, hoping that the the roots don't reach what I did because what happens is that herbicide, the the tordon translocates down into the roots, it kills the roots, the roots decompose. And now that chemical, Chase Burns told me this years ago, and my blood ran cold because the oak trees those those roots dissolve and decompose and that chemical's half-life is Infinite for our purposes. We're alive, you know, for way shorter than that chemical's in there. Where did you Nicolas Lirio (01:59:52.044) Where do you do it, Ken? Kent Boucher (01:59:53.378) I didn't I couldn't do that. I'm just like the the the horror of that is just Judd McCullum (01:59:59.982) It's on every end cap and every farm store and people would say Kent Boucher (02:00:04.366) Your specific situation with just thinking of those ancient oak Judd McCullum (02:00:07.822) I'm hoping their root systems are way down there far enough and not close enough to the surface. It's been over a decade and everything's okay. So fingers crossed that they're probably gonna die a root rot before that happens. Yeah. But now every root system that reaches that spot in the soil is gonna be affected. That's why it's so effective in a fence line. Yeah, you know, anything that gets down there and touches it is going to be affected and probably die. So it's so important that people know that. Tordon RTU. The RTU stands for ready to use, pre diluted, in a handy little squeeze bottle that has the holes and you can just hose whatever you just cut off with it. It's it's the worst thing you can do in a wild setting. yeah, that's big. That's huge. Kent Boucher (02:00:47.16) Also causes colorectal cancer. It's been linked to that. Yeah. I shouldn't say it caused, it's been linked to Nicolas Lirio (02:00:53.326) The highest correlation, actually. Judd McCullum (02:00:56.962) And another thing you can do when you're doing this cut stump, make it easy on yourself. Go to the hardware store. Can't you just bought a daubing applicator? How much did that cost? Kent Boucher (02:01:04.174) It cost me seventy two bucks from A.M. Leonard. Judd McCullum (02:01:06.978) Seventy-two bucks. So what you can do is go to the hardware store, buy you a T fitting for three quarter inch PVC, a stick of three quarter inch PVC, affix that to it however you want, heat it up, glue it, whatever. It's cheap enough, you can do it, whatever. You might not even need to put glue on it. Get yourself a kitchen sponge and a couple of zip ties, and then just zip tie that sponge to the T fitting. It'll hold it nice and flat. Kent Boucher (02:01:13.848) Yeah. Kent Boucher (02:01:29.678) And get and get a little ball valve too. Little Judd McCullum (02:01:32.918) Well, see this method you're not even gonna you're not even gonna fill that PVC with with any herbicides. So and then what I go and do is I get a spray bottle and I learned this from other from people that work for Illinois Department of National For Hack and Squirt. Yeah, so this is for like direct application. You're not gonna worry about overspray with some of the chemicals that are most effective here because you don't want that bare spot on the ground around there, even though you're gonna get something from translocation in the short term. It's not gonna stay in the soil. So you're just gonna take that spray bottle, stick it right into the sponge and apply your herbicide so that you don't have any drip and cut and apply just immediately. You have about a half an hour to get that stuff on the vascular tissue of whatever you just cut before the plant starts to to weep and self seal. Mm-hmm. So cut, apply, cut, apply, cut, apply. It works great in pairs. It can be done with one person. I've done it in my timber. I'm seeing all kinds of cool stuff come back where I've killed honeysuckles. Kent Boucher (02:02:29.678) Awesome. Nicolas Lirio (02:02:30.36) Well, three more. What do we do about Brome in our prairie? Kent Boucher (02:02:35.426) Well, I kinda answered that earlier. to me, just it's a it's a burn timing thing. And you might have to do it a few years. And you might have to do some if the prairie is thin enough and there's not there's no longer the the seed the seed stock there, and usually the case for that's gonna be someone planted a prairie, they did not get a good enough kill before they they or maybe they only did one application before they planted it and it's been years and so the the seeding that was done, those seeds aren't there anymore. They rotted, they got eaten, they blew away, whatever. And so just like brush piles, nature abhors a vacuum, right? Abhores an empty an empty brush pile. the you'll have you may have to go in and do a little interseeding with some some new stuff after you've been working on removing that brome. Or Yeah and herbicide of course works too. Yeah. I have noticed though that brome it has held up. It's not I wouldn't say it's resistant to gli, but I've seen it hold up to gli a little bit. And I would expect it to respond similarly to clethodum because clethodum I wonder it's not a real hard hitter. Nicolas Lirio (02:03:54.518) Well that's could you spray it with clethodum where it would set it back enough that big blue stem that's there could, you know, could Yeah. Or if you have a you know, if if it's just starting to take over, hasn't been there for years Kent Boucher (02:04:03.956) If you went at the right time of year. Kent Boucher (02:04:10.114) It's gonna weaken the big blue as well. And it it won't kill the big blue. No. Most likely. Nicolas Lirio (02:04:16.044) No, and another thing you can do is remember those early spring burnings we had talked about? You can actually burn early spring that will help the Kent Boucher (02:04:24.662) Yeah, judge timeline, yeah, late late February. Nicolas Lirio (02:04:27.948) Then when it that's up really early, way before any big blue and you can spray it. Now if you have a really mature prairie and you're getting spring ephemerals, do not do that. Kent Boucher (02:04:40.654) That's actually that's actually sinful to do. Judd McCullum (02:04:42.711) Perfect is the enemy of good. Nicolas Lirio (02:04:44.844) Now I you know, there if you have a bunch of black eyed Susan and you need to spray to keep it a healthy prairie, I understand. We don't do that for things like wild geranium. We don't we we figure out another way. So yeah. that mostly covers brome and you know. Kent Boucher (02:04:59.63) That would be Judd McCullum (02:05:01.678) I did another little experiment. I ran sheep in my ditch on the broom that's in the ditch. I grazed it down lower than is recommended for sustainable grazing because I don't like it. And then what I did is I wanted to do a little test. I took my lawnmower, put it on the lowest setting, and ran over and scalped it. It is not doing well. Yeah. So pressure. A little bit of pressure. Nicolas Lirio (02:05:20.12) Interesting. Kent Boucher (02:05:20.498) I I would say also on the mowing side of it, pay attention to what's going on. If it like right now, brome is pollinating. and now is a great time if you're gonna try and herd it with with a mowing, now's a good time. When when plants are in the reproductive phase of their yearly life, their annual life cycle, as when they are taking the maximum amount of energy away from the root system. And putting it out on those external tissues to produce a flower, to produce seed and if you injure it then it has less reserve to to come back. So you can right now Nicolas Lirio (02:06:04.098) Now you mean early very early June, end of May. Well, but it'll be kind of an evergreen Kent Boucher (02:06:06.87) Well this is airing tomorrow, right? Yeah, yeah. So this is this is June second when we're talking. Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (02:06:14.638) awesome. What do I do about the big blue stem that's taken over or switchgrass that's taken over? And I really don't have many flowers left. Judd McCullum (02:06:23.926) You burned the same time of year every year and now you have this problem. Kent Boucher (02:06:27.63) yeah, you can try a fall burn. I think grazing can play a role in this. Grazing probably should have played a role in it before it you've gotten to this point. I and then I would say there's a great video by Conservation Blueprint. Our our buddy Pete Berthelson out there shows how he uses cluthenum to help dig himself out of this problem. If he's managing a prairie that's got this problem, he'll He'll do a fairly I think it's a fairly light application. so in other words you're just harming I I don't know, maybe it goes pretty hot with it. I d I don't know. I can't remember Nicolas Lirio (02:07:06.126) I I would even at a heavy rate, you'd be hard pressed to convince me one round of cluthidum's gonna kill out. Kent Boucher (02:07:11.852) Yeah, the ghost end. Yeah, and and he's just setting it back and allowing those flowers to express themselves more a as the we'll say the over the canopy is open for him. And th that that seems to work. But I would say this too though, even though it is a grass selected herbicide, as Carol would say, any any kind of thing if you get it too heavy on on on plant life, it'll it'll damage it. So yeah. Nicolas Lirio (02:07:43.458) And I think if if our ideal, you know, is end of May through the end of June, having cows on it. they will Riley, you probably they'll hammer that big Riley Rozendaal (02:07:56.384) Well, it depends. It's gonna depend A on your timing and B on your animal. your if you have a problem with switch, you wanna be in there earlier than Big Blue Stem. And the animal you're using, if you're using cattle, you're gonna have less grazing on your Forbes. If you graze really hard with sheep with the idea you're gonna increase your pollinators, I think Judd maybe can speak to this with a little bit more authority, but in my mind you're setting yourself up for failure because sheep eat a lot of things. Yeah. You know, cattle will focus more on the grass component, but sheep, you're gonna get unintended damage if you overgraze where there's grass and forbs. Judd McCullum (02:08:39.894) Yeah. There's sheep are the kind of the middle ground in between that. So people think cattle grass only, goats are preferential browsers. They'll go off after broadleaves almost exclusively and resort to grass if they're starving. but sheep, depending on the breed, there's so many different breeds of sheep. Some of are just like cattle. Some of are a lot closer to goats. It just takes a little bit of research to figure that out. Nicolas Lirio (02:09:02.444) Hm. Man. All right. And can finally number sixteen. Can I intercede flowers back into my prairie grassland? Actually I just got stopped at a farmer's market. Kent Boucher (02:09:13.76) Shouldn't I just say, Will my flowers that I interceded into my prairie show up? Judd McCullum (02:09:18.398) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (02:09:19.726) That's real. we've talked about this before on the podcast. Jud and I are actually working on an interseeding mix. and here's our here's our thought process on it. Very hard to get new seedling forbes to show up in a grassland. You we recommend a fall burning and then a fall planting of those flowers. Kent Boucher (02:09:21.08) You could do anything. Nicolas Lirio (02:09:46.722) And it probably wouldn't hurt to have a mowing regimen as if it was a new planting the whole next summer. but to no guarantees, even doing it that meticulously. So what we do is in interseeding mixes, we add very cheap forbs that we can put a lot of seeds that are very competitive. Think black-eyed Susan, Foxglove Pennstamon, Wild Bergamot, Greyheaded Cornflower. Yep. Yep. I mean Yeah, Maximilian Sunflower. Riley Rozendaal (02:10:18.176) P maybe? Kent Boucher (02:10:19.059) Saw tooth sunflower. Nicolas Lirio (02:10:20.75) Yeah, I get nervous about Satune Sunblast. man, you wouldn't believe how many Yeah, in a photo of the background. no, that was in California at a photo shoot, kid. that landing never happened. Kent Boucher (02:10:23.18) That stuff show up anywhere. I saw one on the moon once. Judd McCullum (02:10:35.032) We're doing this. Kent Boucher (02:10:37.87) Just some common milkweed and some sawtooth sunflower growing at the base of the the flagpole. Nicolas Lirio (02:10:43.862) Yeah, and and and you can make these hap it takes extra steps, it's harder to do, you gotta seed kind of heavy, it's expensive, and then there's still no guarantee. So I tell people it's worth risk, it's worth trying, but I think we should take a chunk of our old big blue stem field, just like a corner of it, see if we can get flowers to show up. That'd be interesting. but all right. It's been a long time, it's been two hours. Anybody have anything else they want to make sure they add on the Riley Rozendaal (02:11:09.772) I was just gonna say on the interseeding, if you are in a hurry to get prairie and you want like, you think, well, the grass is the cheaper part, I can get the grass and then I can add the flowers later. No. Don't no Yeah. The flowers are the expensive part. If I was gonna say plan a five thousand dollar project and Nicolas Lirio (02:11:25.828) If anything, do it the other way around. Riley Rozendaal (02:11:38.944) I would save. I would save for another two years and get the money and do it all together. Yeah. Don't cutting corners in in the natural world generally leads to disastrous results. Judd McCullum (02:11:51.342) we we mentioned it several times but we didn't discuss it specifically in step two. the use of row crop and so the difference between corn and beans, fellows, anybody? Kent Boucher (02:12:06.434) Yeah. Like legume so nitrogen fixer versus nitrogen hogger. Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (02:12:12.232) And so a lot of people are like, well, there's a lot of there's a lot of trash on the ground with the corn. Totally fine, especially if you're planting in the fall, you plant right on those suckers. Corn pulls up a bunch of the nitrogen, which means your grasses won't be as dominant right away, which means that your legumes and your wildflowers can really shine, particularly the legumes. Partridge yeah, partridge pea, purple prairie clover, bun yeah, Illinois bunaflower, roundheaded bush clover, white wild indigo, these are Judd McCullum (02:12:35.266) Modelflower. Nicolas Lirio (02:12:41.486) plants that we don't actually put a huge seeding rate in to begin with, because they're a little expensive per seed, but also the quality of each seed is better. So they're actually gonna have a boost. big fan of having a boost on those species. So you're right. And but bean ground or corn ground, either way, is gonna have a really, really great prairie establishment because you've fixed all of those brome, reed canary issues over years and years of corn and beaning. Now if you have a pasture and you want to do corn and beans to set it for prairie because you're playing the long game, at least two years. Don't think one year is not going to cut it. Sorry. Kent Boucher (02:13:21.454) I would also advise you plant soybeans that are are not only roundup resistant but also two, four D resistant, so that if you have like a stubborn broadleaf problem you can work on that. And then I'd use seed that is d is not coated in insecticide. neonicotinoids simply because you don't want y you're already doing some ecological damage. Nicolas Lirio (02:13:42.894) Yeah, neonicotoids. Kent Boucher (02:13:51.05) every time you plant corn and soybeans you don't you don't need to be doing more. Judd McCullum (02:13:55.006) Is the enemy a good Nicolas Lirio (02:13:56.236) Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. All right everyone. I hope you got as much out of this as we did. It's it was a nice refresher. Kent Boucher (02:14:02.938) want to add one more thing in there. One more thing. A prairie, until we get bison and elk back, a prairie is not a s a whoo, I did all the upfront work, now I can walk away from it forever. It just isn't the case. now the maintenance drastically drops off once once you you've done that heavy lifting on the front end, but there's always gonna be little spots you gotta manage, little trees, like Riley said. Nicolas Lirio (02:14:05.848) Yeah, yeah. Kent Boucher (02:14:30.508) best way to go in there is the elbow grease. And and do it the h do the hard do it the hard way, which is the right way. Yep. And and you know, you get a patch of brome, get in there, take care of it, pull it all out by hand. That's the best way. Yeah. It's it's not fun, but you gotta do it for maybe thirty minutes here and there. Get the whole fam together, make it more fun. That's what we did in my prairie last night. Kent Boucher (02:15:12.214) Yeah, and and you know something I've noticed is I think we're going through a phenomenon right now where a lot of us are sick of being on our phones as much as we are. I mean you can just see that in the amount of times I see my friends posting now compared to a few years ago. People are just th they're wanting to be off of the thing. And when you have a project like a little prairie to dote on, you're not on your phone. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Totally true. You'll find that y you already got the time to manage it. Yeah. You just you don't realize it. Yep. Nicolas Lirio (02:15:35.063) Yeah, that's tough. Nicolas Lirio (02:15:40.68) if if you are looking at this, go to Hoxynative Seeds slash learning dash center, I think, and you'll see this podcast, you'll see FAQ place, you'll see link to our forum where you're people are asking really niche questions on there. It's awesome. Those niche questions are what we like to see because then we can actually ping some of the experts and get some of those answers. And then we have a native plant database, which is new, over 650 species. It gives a bunch of their details. Like how what kind of height, what's their bloom period, what kind of soil do they like, all this all these different things, a little blurb about I think, and what state that they're native to. So you can actually click on a state and see all the plants there that are native to it. Not all of them, but it's like 662. So there's a lot of them. and it it's useful. Hoxinave seeds slash learning center. Just go to our website, you'll you'll see it. We really, really appreciate ya. Thank you so much for listening, and we will talk to you again next time.