Nicolas Lirio (00:06.998) All right boys. Andrew, Kenny you can be in the middle and I'll go here. Kent Boucher (00:14.068) Can't believe all you wore is a sweatshirt. You're gonna be cold. Yeah. Andrew Diallesandro (00:16.394) Yeah. No Nicolas Lirio (00:19.463) Don't win. Kent Boucher (00:22.446) You just keep telling yourself that. Sitting here on the cold concrete. Nicolas Lirio (00:31.246) We have to go back into Kent Boucher (00:37.422) Yeah. Andrew Diallesandro (00:37.632) What? Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (00:41.006) Yeah. Kent Boucher (00:47.47) Yeah, you should just put yours on airplane mode. Nicolas Lirio (00:51.375) recently because it well and it's nice because I don't have Kent Boucher (00:54.476) Although I th I think I I know how that does that now and you have to click OK on the software for it to do it. So that shows you're just blind clicking through icons. Nicolas Lirio (01:05.88) the shirt mics because you have to click through the and I think I just they gave it as one of the options and I was like yeah that's it that's the one all right keep wanting to call you date andrew we Kent Boucher (01:07.8) Yeah. Andrew Diallesandro (01:20.008) Drew, go with Drew. What? Go with Drew. Drew. Drew. Yep. Drew. Nicolas Lirio (01:25.374) you don't want to feel like you're getting Kent Boucher (01:28.053) you're running right now, aren't you? Nicolas Lirio (01:30.946) So here are the things I want to make sure we hit. We don't have to. I want a before and after difference, before when there was funding, now that there's basically none in Neil Smith, what was happening and what's not, you don't have to give your opinion. When we had funding, we were able to do this, these programs, and now that we don't have Andrew Diallesandro (01:33.443) Sure. Andrew Diallesandro (01:44.042) Sure. Kent Boucher (01:48.915) No, bash the government. Let's go. Nicolas Lirio (01:52.556) too but I I want to protect your job. Yeah. And and so Andrew Diallesandro (01:55.406) Yeah, no that's fine. Kent Boucher (01:58.968) You like those car heard best? I've I've been tempted to get one. Andrew Diallesandro (02:00.522) I do I do like this one. I like it. I like the the aesthetics of the wool. Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (02:08.014) I really liked what you were talking earlier about your three-way landowner. Yeah, that was awesome. Yeah I want to make sure we hit that. Yeah and then I really want to make sure that we hit the the bison at Neil Smith. Kent Boucher (02:10.028) Yep. Andrew Diallesandro (02:12.108) Sorry? Andrew Diallesandro (02:23.318) The landowners. Andrew Diallesandro (02:36.45) Okay. Nicolas Lirio (02:37.984) in terms of like how you've seen them interact with the the prairie and the landscape and Kent Boucher (02:43.022) So what's your official? Andrew Diallesandro (02:44.302) So I'm the state private lands coordinator for Fish and Wildlife Service in Iowa and now Illinois as of a year ago. Yeah. Easy. So it was interesting you guys had Ray Garoff or you guys a few episodes ago and Ray and I used to run you used to run together when I was a in a field over there. Kent Boucher (02:50.182) yeah yeah. Kent Boucher (03:00.157) okay, yeah, yeah, he's awesome. Andrew Diallesandro (03:01.932) Yeah, you guys were talking about his Western fire experience. I remember he and I went out on our first Western fire experience together and we were in this hotel room and we were just like kids on Christmas, like the sense of adventure. I remember so Ray Ray's awesome. He's an awesome Nicolas Lirio (03:16.046) Yeah. Kent Boucher (03:19.126) Well, that's our new intro for or our icebreaker for this one. We need to ask you about you and Ray burning down the west. Nicolas Lirio (03:26.498) Okay, but before we get started, a couple things. We're gonna have you do an intro real quick. You bet. And then with the microphone, this won't be close enough. You'll wanna and you can grab here and you can manhandle that sucker. But don't grab here because there's a touch screen and we interviewed a gubernatorial candidate and he accidentally turned muted himself. We had to start over. It was terrible. Yeah, that's probably but if you start leaning for the back, I'll I'll say something, but I do it all Andrew Diallesandro (03:37.633) Sweet. Andrew Diallesandro (03:46.601) is this close enough? Kent Boucher (03:52.278) Want me to put it down a little bit and so it's not covering the space? Nick has like this limit where he's willing to ask the guest to do things and then he just gets quiet. He's like I'll just Nicolas Lirio (04:02.43) Yeah, I'll fix it a post. Andrew Diallesandro (04:05.336) Yeah. Kent Boucher (04:06.606) Yeah. So you also oversee like the Doug talks about this all the time. I think the guy he uses his name is Andre in Wisconsin, where you have like cost share programs with Andrew Diallesandro (04:22.282) That's the exact program that I hear. Nicolas Lirio (04:27.215) $14,400 program. There are so many entities that come to us and they say, I have $14,400. How much seed can I get for that? Andrew Diallesandro (04:34.126) it pr it's probably not. Okay. Okay. But there are enough connections, you know, between what Doug has done, you know, like on media podcast channels, but tell us has worked with our program in Wisconsin. It's the same exact program. his name is Jacob. Jacob. Kent Boucher (04:47.256) Guy's name, Andre. Nicolas Lirio (04:51.286) You know what? Yeah, Jacob, we've email I've emailed with Andrew Diallesandro (04:53.882) Jacob Hernandez. Okay, so he's one of our field biologists in Wisconsin. I would be like Jacob's supervisor but for Iowa and Illinois. Okay. Yep. Interesting. Kent Boucher (04:54.958) That's what Kent Boucher (05:05.11) knew there was a like a Latin last name or Latino last name or a name in there. Hernandez I remember that. Yeah, Doug says nothing but great things about Andrew Diallesandro (05:10.402) Yeah. He's one of our stars. We're we're fortunate to have Jacob. Nicolas Lirio (05:18.22) Well, normally when I give people a tour I learn a little bit more about but I was so rambly this morning I was high on coffee and meth that I I just don't get to it. we went down to old sides. Yep. Dude, it's You went down there? Yeah. I wanted to show We don't ran a and it's bailed. I gotta go to a bird. Sorry, I'm sorry. All right, all right. They bailed all that? Yeah. Yeah. That's what I was telling you. Kent Boucher (05:26.798) You guys went down to Kent Boucher (05:38.088) Sorry. Kent Boucher (05:43.638) What are they gonna use it for? Andrew Diallesandro (05:46.622) Maybe they were just prepping it to you know, get that get that off. Main I mean, are they gonna convert it? Kent Boucher (05:52.534) That to me screams of I am too afraid to light this thing on fire. That's what that Nicolas Lirio (05:56.738) I don't know why th they didn't even ask us, right? Anyway anyway, my friends gotta get to a burn this afternoon. So All right. So whenever you're ready, your name, your title, and this is the Prairie Farm Podcast, but I'm gonna have you tell the camp Andrew Diallesandro (06:01.717) yeah. Andrew Diallesandro (06:09.848) Gotcha. So I'm Drudy Alessandro. I'm the state private lands coordinator for the US Fish and Wildlife Service in Iowa and Illinois, and this is the Prairie Farm Podcast. Kent Boucher (06:21.59) Also the also the coolest last name we've ever had on the podcast. Can you say it just one more time? Andrew Diallesandro (06:26.934) Di Alessandro. Spelled just like it sounds. Italian. Italian. Italian. Nicolas Lirio (06:32.054) each other. Kent Boucher (06:32.758) I would have never guessed that in Nicolas Lirio (06:35.586) Ken would have guessed Chinese before. Andrew Diallesandro (06:38.04) Ha ha. Kent Boucher (06:38.622) Yeah, I just that just I would have never guessed that. Andrew Diallesandro (06:41.294) Italian, yeah. Nicolas Lirio (06:42.222) Well I yeah, I looked at it, it was like Kent Boucher (06:43.982) What's the family? What's the family history? I I feel like people who have Italian heritage but live in America have some of the coolest like immigration stories. Andrew Diallesandro (06:54.87) Yeah, so for that, so my dad's grandparents actually were the ones that came over and they then settled in Yeah, yeah, roughly. And they came Kent Boucher (07:04.462) Are like Ellis Island timeframe or Most people don't realize it, but their ancestors did not go through Ellis Island. Very f is a very narrow window of time in American history by people. So that's pretty cool. Andrew Diallesandro (07:16.704) Right. So where I'm from, Dilworth, Minnesota. If you where Fargo, North Dakota is, just six miles east of that, on the on the Minnesota side. there's actually a Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railroad hub there. So a lot of Italians came over to work on the railroads. So that's where my family came from. But then Well that's a great question. I want to say nineteen hundred. So the house that was the house I grew up in was built in like nineteen three. So they would have came just before that, you know, that that time frame. Interesting. Nicolas Lirio (07:32.832) What like what time frame was it? Nicolas Lirio (07:44.81) That's actually kinda late compared to Kent Boucher (07:47.117) Yeah. Andrew Diallesandro (07:47.57) Yeah, it's literally a block from a house where that railroad hub is. We used to go play on the snow pile that they would plough up there at that hub. But yeah, a lot of Italians, Castellos, Virianos, Di Alessandro's Nicolas Lirio (07:59.37) What what what are Italians like? Like like p around here, everyone's Dutch. They're really good at saving money. They're very stoic. They're super tall. They're all blonde. What are what are Italians like? Andrew Diallesandro (08:08.494) loud. they get around each other and family, they're open with each other and a lot of pasta. Really? I mean I mean every family up there has their own Yeah, I mean every family up there has their own spaghetti sauce recipe. It's like, well, this is the Variana recipe, they orange peels in there. This is the the You know, this is the Costello one. It's like Nicolas Lirio (08:18.274) Make it to your family? Kent Boucher (08:29.07) I'm so jealous of Italian culture. Yeah. You guys seem like the best foodies in our country. Andrew Diallesandro (08:33.741) It's it's solid. I have a a love for Paza, man. I mean i if you're gonna eat one meal before you die, that's it. Nicolas Lirio (08:41.3) I love, love Dutch culture. I really do. I love it. And I always thought, man, the food here is like a little bland and lacking. Yeah. And then I went to the Netherlands. It is very bland and lacking over there. It is deep in their roots. But Italians are not that way. Andrew Diallesandro (08:56.086) Yeah, so my family was like the least in in that in that area, like the least traditional Italian like that. But one of my best friends, his mom was like the matriarch, the mom. She did all the cooking and like her pathway to to to you was through your stomach. Especially if you were a boy or or in the a man, you know. Nicolas Lirio (09:13.998) Do you do you have a good accent? Kent Boucher (09:14.626) Yeah, no. Andrew Diallesandro (09:16.686) no. It's probably a little probably not as safe for working to do to do some of those to do some of those impressions. So do But yeah, I've got some things in there. Kent Boucher (09:24.76) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (09:29.774) It seems like Kent Boucher (09:30.894) And maybe this is just a stereotype, but it seems like a lot of Italian immigrant families go back to Italy fairly often to visit family back in Italy. Andrew Diallesandro (09:40.972) Yeah, I would like to at some point. It's kind of on the the bucket list, but haven't had the opportunity. Not haven't yet. Kent Boucher (09:45.814) Never you've never done that. Nicolas Lirio (09:48.098) What what I I'm curious, like the family thing. I mean, they're just into the family thing. I'm like more so than You know, it's it's it's real. Like Italian families hardly move away from each other, extended families. Even like in New York and stuff. Yeah, yeah. I Kent Boucher (09:54.26) No Kent Boucher (10:04.95) Probably how it should be. Andrew Diallesandro (10:07.32) Yeah, there's some too. I mean, you know, I I got into the Fish and Wildlife Service and, you know, I was able to move. Like I wanted to get out and go away. Like and Fish and Wildlife Service was my gateway to that. You know, lived in Michigan, out of grad school, went to Illinois. So I'm kind of removed from that family. But, you know, I'd be remiss if I said I didn't miss it. And like being home and being around all those people that are still there. Yeah. but I mean again, I found the Fish and Wildlife Service and we're in every state. We've got opportunities to to do you know, private lands like I do, to national wildlife refuges like where I sit at Neil Smith. So yeah, it it was it gave me the opportunity to leave. Kent Boucher (10:44.93) Yeah, that's interesting. So, speaking of Illinois, before we start recording or I think technically while we were recording, Nick just t he's doing this. I think he's trying to like he's got some kind of scam lined up where he's gonna he's gonna get people on the hook for things they said while they thought they were off air, but Nicolas Lirio (11:02.414) Get a bunch of party favors. Yeah, no, no, not doing that problem. Nicolas Lirio (11:09.986) Yeah. You said some stuff when we quote unquote were recording. It'd be a shame if that made it out, brother. That was I d would never do that. I promise to all our listeners I would never do that. Andrew Diallesandro (11:19.768) Yeah. Kent Boucher (11:20.844) You said you Yeah, I I'm already screwed. I know it. you said that you know Ray Gareth pretty well. You guys are good friends. And you talked about how you guys had done some Western burn crew stuff to Andrew Diallesandro (11:35.308) Yeah, so my first western role, at the time I was a private lands biologist in Illinois. I was sitting in Springfield, so probably an hour east of where he sits. Kent Boucher (11:47.458) I think we drove through Springfield about four times in two days. Andrew Diallesandro (11:50.722) Yeah. Yeah. that's where I that was my first position out of graduate school. My wife is from Springfield and I took her out of there and and moving on. But maybe twenty fourteen or so I think was my first western role. Illinois had an interagency fire crew at the time, so they rostered it with predominantly D and our staff but also other folks and Fish and Wildlife Service was one of those agencies that supported and I was like the only one, so was like it was like a free spot. But had some really good mentors and and guys there and plus it was a sense of adventure again, like wanting to go out at that point in my you know in my life. I didn't have wife, you know, kids, I can go out and do that stuff. Yeah. And Ray was on it. Ray and I were on that first crew. I think we went to Montana and Idaho and got to know him pretty well, but then he was also a heritage biologist. and he knew a lot of private landowners that I think so I think Ray is technically a natural heritage biologist for the Illinois DNR. Nicolas Lirio (12:38.04) Heritage biologist. Andrew Diallesandro (12:44.13) So he he manages like the Nature Preserves Commission, like some of those properties. Nicolas Lirio (12:47.768) Like the INHF, except for Illinois. Andrew Diallesandro (12:50.946) no. So I NHF here is a non profit. the heritage program over there is part of the DNR. It's under the umbrella of the DNR. Do we don't. Nicolas Lirio (12:58.702) Okay, okay. Andrew Diallesandro (13:02.28) But sorry. No, it's all good. But anyway, we would do restorations on some of the on some of the sites that Ray manages, particularly the private landowner sites. So he had talked about the Hill Prairie Initiative on that podcast. So my biologist now, Emily Hodap, works with Ray on a lot of those projects, restoring hill prairies along the Illinois River. Interesting. Nicolas Lirio (13:21.896) Yep. So when you were going out when you were going out west and and burning these prairies, I'm w what is it like burning out there? Andrew Diallesandro (13:29.592) So when we go west it's suppression. It's wildfire suppression. So, you know, you could be going to Kent Boucher (13:35.746) Are those main mainly woodland burns, forest burns? Andrew Diallesandro (13:38.506) So those are wildfires. Those are like Western wildfires. You know, when it June, July, August, September when the whole West is on fire, that's when crews from the east, you know, Illinois, Iowa, they head out west. so it's mo mainly suppression. So it could be a big project fire, maybe, you know, the last one I was on in twenty twenty was a big fire around Fort Collins. so you're kind of rostered to that fire and you're working just on that fire. Other times you go out on like a severity detail, which means your initial attack. They have you because the conditions are it's either so dry, you know, there's you know dry lightning or lightning storms coming through and they expect wildfire start. So your initial attack, you're with a crew to go out there when those get called in and put those out. So I've done both. but it's it's usually a suppression mu suppression model. Kent Boucher (14:21.388) Okay. I always figured you guys were doing preventative burning, like trying to remove fuel before the fire could get there, but you're literally going there stopping fire. Andrew Diallesandro (14:32.108) Yeah. Correct. And there are times when, you know, again, you're on that suppression, but it's like it makes sense to burn this out. They were maybe gonna the forest or that unit was gonna burn that out, or it makes things safer. So you do do some presc prescribe fire using drip torch, but it again it's a s suppression stance. Like you're burning this out so that the fire cannot spread from that direction. Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (14:56.83) what was the scariest moment while you were out there? Andrew Diallesandro (15:00.12) There was one time we we had to hike in. I mean it was we were not prepared for it. So there were some watch out situations. We got there to where we were going at night, so we didn't get to see the terrain, which is a is kind of a a watch out situation. You that's not good. So we walked in, didn't really have enough water, things like that. It worked all day and the fire started taking off. And I mean it was it was a much larger, more complex than we had resources there. So we had to get airlifted off the mountain, helicopters pull the crew out. I mean There was no point where we were like you know, they're feeling it. But you were, you know, the hairs on your neck are standing up, you're very aware, you're paying attention to what's going on. So that was about the scariest out there. But you know, there are other crews that you know, they're you know, that that would be breakfast for them, you know. So it's just it's just depends on the situation where you're at. Kent Boucher (15:48.206) Yeah, we're trying hard where I was. I kinda gave up. I talked to a few people and they you're kinda like, Yeah, we could probably work something out. It never happened. I'd if you know of a hotshot crew member, I'd love to get on Andrew Diallesandro (16:02.934) So I was just telling Nick, we have a hotshot crew. So yesterday I was burning that Neil Smith at the refuge. We got about fourteen, fifteen hundred acres burned yesterday. And there's a hotshot crew, the Craig Hotshots, they're a BLM hotshot crew from Colorado that's on the refuge right now today. And they're gonna be doing another I don't know what the goal was, maybe another thousand to two thousand acres today, depending on what happens with the weather. Really? But yeah, they're a hotshot crew. Typically now it's not Western wildfire season. Right. But they're gonna be going back. Starting to get ready for Western Wildfire season because they're a national resource. Kent Boucher (16:34.05) Think we could catch somebody while they're here for the next Andrew Diallesandro (16:36.332) They time out tomorrow and head out. So big sad. But I mean those guys are awesome. Like they they know fire. They are great to work with. Nicolas Lirio (16:45.164) Great hangs when they're not around fire. Andrew Diallesandro (16:47.324) my god. So th there's a lot of downtime in Persky Fire, right? Especially at the refuge. Like, you they show up at night. We didn't get fire on the ground until eleven thirty, twelve o'clock yesterday. And just chilling with some of those guys, I mean, they are they've Kent Boucher (16:57.914) They're like the kind of people that jumped off the roof for fun when they were kids. Absolutely. Andrew Diallesandro (17:01.59) Yeah, so there's a high shot crews. We've worked with you know on other Western roles, guys that repellers, you know, so they're not smoke jumpers and jumping out of the planes, although we've seen some of those guys, but they repel out of helicopters. Some of these guys are just awesome. The most unassuming people, but then you're like, What do you do? Like, that guy's that guy's awesome. He's a stud. Nicolas Lirio (17:22.091) There was giant fires in Reading when I was there, Reading, California, Northern California. And and I served a table, I worked at Olive Garden, I served a table of smoke jumpers. And I mean, psh forget about Navy SEALs, dude. I mean these guys were Kent Boucher (17:38.417) They had you paying their bill. Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (17:40.526) I mean, basically, well and they were very kind, but their shifts, it's not like, you get twelve hours, you get sixteen hours on and then you're eight hours off. Their shifts are like a hundred and eight hours. Yeah. You know what I mean? And Yeah, yeah. And and they're in they're an insane they were insane, but they were a fun hang. Yeah. Kent Boucher (17:43.51) Is this enough food for you, sir? Kent Boucher (17:54.262) Until the fire goes out. Andrew Diallesandro (18:02.574) Actually I was telling you about that time we got the helicoptered off the mountain. So things were blowing up. They were. They were. So you see the plane going by and the the pilot's checking in, do you know all your resources are? When you when they ask that question, you start paying attention. Things are getting real. Yeah. Like they they're checking where the resources are, is everybody accounted for. And about forty five minutes later, like we had because we had to pack in a bunch of stuff and we had staged it down closer to the fires, like, no, we can't go in and get it. Kent Boucher (18:09.001) We're getting dropped off. Andrew Diallesandro (18:32.366) About 45 minutes later, all of a sudden there's like three of them walking out with our stuff that that we couldn't go in to get. And they're like, Hey, we got you guys the stuff. You're sitting there. It was it was a it was a lady, a another dude. He was he had to be like six five, just tall, slender thing, like unassuming. But we just saw you guys up there, and I know you got dropped way over there. Yeah. And you were way then way down there and already pulled back up here. Like awesome guys. Right on. Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (19:01.022) My goodness. Yeah. That's crazy. Sir, would you please hold the door for me while I walk? Could you pull the chair out for me while I sit down? It's like those they're just some people are another breed. Yeah. Andrew Diallesandro (19:01.92) Awesome. Andrew Diallesandro (19:13.742) Yeah. Yeah, those guys are awesome, man. Kent Boucher (19:15.52) Yeah, well we gotta time this next year when they're they're around and we can Andrew Diallesandro (19:19.816) so next week there's a a BLM they're not I don't know if there any of them are gonna be smoke jumpers or or any of that or hot shots yet, but there's a B L crew slated to come help us burn next week. And we'll just kinda see what what the weather looks like. Nicolas Lirio (19:32.83) I mean 'cause you know these guys personally. If you meet one and you're like, You gotta be on the pod, we'd move heaven and earth if you're like, Hey, I got a two days notice. We we'd work hard to get one of them on. We you know, we want stories and we want someone interesting and we wanna learn a bunch. So Kent Boucher (19:46.06) feel like that's a th those people are truly unsung heroes. I listened to a podcast about that tragic cr I can't remember the name of their crew. See? Unsung the one in Arizona where all but one member of the hotshot crew were killed. And and just from it was like a f four part story or something that I listened to and just from hearing that it's like man these people are true heroes. Andrew Diallesandro (19:56.76) One they made the movie about. Andrew Diallesandro (20:13.432) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (20:15.032) Yeah, and they I'm I mean, they go through insane training over there. Yeah. Andrew Diallesandro (20:20.812) Very got a guy actually in mind already. He's he's one of our prescribed fire techs now in Iowa, full time, but he has a hotshot background, Western Fire background, but you know, he's here in Iowa for Fish and Wildlife Service and he's basically our R XB two on all of our prescribed fires throughout the state. He would be. I mean he's he's here already. Kent Boucher (20:41.066) Yeah, we'd to stuff. Yeah, for real. Yeah, h I I've I've wondered that, you know, it's it's kinda like I mean, it it can't be too different from like sp you know, special operative military people, right? When when do you know it's time to retire and and how do you go away from that ad adrenaline rush lifestyle to you know, what's the next role? But at least for them if they stick around long enough that there is a retirement plan. Whereas for Hotshots Andrew Diallesandro (21:00.846) Yeah. Kent Boucher (21:10.594) That's not that's NGO, right? Those are Andrew Diallesandro (21:12.878) No, they're they're federal, you know, so like that hotshot crew that's out. Yeah, they're out they're they're rostered under BLMs. Correct. They're Bureau of Land Management. There's other ones that are Forest Service. there I think there's a couple park service hotshot crews. Yeah, they are federal employees. Kent Boucher (21:16.846) Yeah. Kent Boucher (21:28.59) But I imagine they have to transfer out of being a on a hot shot team eventually. I mean th th they don't want they don't want someone who's sixty one years old holding out for sixty-two for social security and retirement. Andrew Diallesandro (21:41.494) Yeah. So I mean at fi I forget what it is, I think fifty nine, if you are primary fire in the federal government, you time out. You automatically, you know, that's your retirement. So they take That's your retirement, yeah. But a lot of guys, you know, in in some of those roles funny th what happens when when wives and kids come around, you want you need a little bit more stability. They're running around doing fire like that. You know, it's you know, there's people that can do that, there's people that choose not to, right? So some of will come and do Kent Boucher (21:50.503) All the way to fifty nine. Andrew Diallesandro (22:10.776) You know, there's other fire roles within the federal government. You know, again, prescribed by or some of these other ones, engine captains, things like that, or leadership within, you know, the fire ranks. Or depending on your degree background, you can jump over to the biology series and be like a refugee manager, you know, depending on what what you have. So a lot of folks will take that route as well. So Kent Boucher (22:31.598) Is that really is that really hard for people to walk away from that excitement and Andrew Diallesandro (22:35.596) I think there's some folks that you know, that's part of it. They'll they'll do that and they will be career fire and you know, they'll be career hot shots or they'll be out west, they'll you know, they'll do that stuff and and that's you know, what fills their boat. That's that's them. Interesting. Nicolas Lirio (22:48.716) And then come over here and do the most dangerous part of our job for fun. You know Smoking a cigarette out there. Kent Boucher (22:53.357) Yeah. Andrew Diallesandro (22:54.338) Yeah. Kent Boucher (22:56.45) Good retirement job here. Nicolas Lirio (22:59.198) Yeah, we're like kids in his hard hat, his prairie hard hat. Kent Boucher (23:02.604) You will not catch me wearing a hard hat on a prairie burn. Maybe in a woodland burn for sure, but Andrew Diallesandro (23:07.618) Yeah. No worries. Nicolas Lirio (23:10.37) That's fine. Well, I I mean, I appreciate you coming all the way out here. That was super cool of you. I but what what piqued my interest about you was your your entanglement with Neil Smith. And we've been trying to catch people from Neil Smith for a while, but they're you guys are really short on Flynn. Interesting. No. No the what what was the joke of it? Neil Smith the dad of your girlfriend? no the you guys have Kent Boucher (23:27.678) The guy that bullied you and didn't have Kent Boucher (23:39.51) Neil Neil Smith National Wildlife Refuge if you're not if you're not local to hear. Nicolas Lirio (23:43.49) Yeah, it was Neil Smith was a senator, I think that represented that that got it pushed through. It was like his big thing while he was in Washington. Andrew Diallesandro (23:46.946) Representative. Andrew Diallesandro (23:52.587) Same with like like Red Rock, Sailorville. A lot of those projects came during Neil Smith's tenure. Man. Nicolas Lirio (23:59.586) Yeah, well, good man, yeah props to that dude. I mean I'm curious what the the inner workings is is in the and I'm sure it's changed dramatically, but in politics, what deals with the devil do you have to make to bring wildlife refuge back to your state? You know what I mean? Andrew Diallesandro (24:15.724) Yeah, that's a good so the story I heard was basically Redlands Corporation, I think it was his precursor before Mid American, was buying up a lot of that land. you know, back in the nineties, late eighties, early nineties. and something happened. I don't know if they were gonna put a nuclear plant there or what what what the plan was. At the time it was Walnut Creek National Wildlife Refuge, but they were buying up all that land around it and Kent Boucher (24:36.075) It's Walnut Creek, right? Andrew Diallesandro (24:42.712) Deal kind of fell through. I th you know Neil Smith was able to negotiate, called up Fish and Wildlife Service and says, Hey, congratulations, you have more refuge. And at the time it was all crop ground, right? And Fish Wildlife says, I don't we appreciate it, but no thanks. And he says, No, you don't understand. You have more wildlife refuge. So then at the time it became the one of the largest prairie restorations in the country and has churned in, you know, from that time, like at thousand acres maybe to over six thousand today. Kent Boucher (25:14.778) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (25:15.284) Aura that's a bunch of our seeds out there. But from I mean not not nearly the variety that we grow today, but Wild Rye and I believe Purple Prairie Clover and Dad told me one other where they like bought out for three straight years on on all that stuff. Kent Boucher (25:21.966) Virginia Andrew Diallesandro (25:26.978) Yeah. Andrew Diallesandro (25:32.742) Yeah, in the early days it was hot and heavy, prairie restoration. I mean they were going. I mean, we we've now, again to due to some of the staffing, been and then agreements we have with partners like INHF, Pulp County Conservation, the D and R been moving some of our old equipment that we just can't use anymore to them. and they still have active seed programs. So we work with partners like that to help facilitate, you know, what they do as well. And they're and they're tremendous to work with those three is particularly those three entities. They're awesome. Nicolas Lirio (26:02.086) I am gonna poke your brain on this thing and I have mixed feelings about this and I know that you are and you know you work for the the government so you can and can't say certain things. But I have INHF, nonprofit, amazing. I'm glad they're doing that stuff. Polk County Commer Conservation, we have friends over there, we've interviewed from people over there. So I'm not trying to poop on anyone specific. Really appreciate what they have going on. It Can make things very complicated and difficult and put pressure on a lot of the seed companies, including ourselves, but I've heard it from from many other seed companies much smaller than us that the government is now producing a thing that they were previously buying and still buying. And now what I've heard is that hey, we need both. We need both the private and the public sector. Kent makes fun of me for being a libertarian. I'm definitely not a registered libertarian, but I if anybody's curious, I'm registered independent. So the but I don't I don't love, like I would not be in favor if any government agency said, like, well, we're gonna start producing batteries or we're gonna start building cars, or you know what I mean? And I feel similarly about native seed. Yeah. I would prefer they go out and say, Andrew Diallesandro (27:01.131) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (27:26.584) Hey, within the next three years, we're gonna be wanting a bunch of this stuff. And just just put that out in the open. I guarantee you us and Allen Dan and Shooting Star and John Judson or you know whoever would start building out fields to do that. but it is complicated and I understand the reason Polk County even got into it to begin with was because they were struggling to source seed. Yep. And a huge line item on their budget was buying seed and now they could cut their costs are always getting cut and they're expected to do more. So I understand there are many sides to it, but I'm curious what you think. Andrew Diallesandro (27:58.358) Yeah, that's a good question. I think the right answer is yes, there's both. And I think there's room for both. So, you know, I think back in the nineties, early two thousands, this that scenario played out on Neil Smith National Wildlife Refuge. They had, you know, they were doing little restorations buying, but then they also set up seed production plots. I think at the time, I don't know if it's the native seed growers, whoever, you know, kind of played that card that exact card and said, Hey know, you guys could be buying some of this. I think that's how Prairie P the Prairie Partners program in the state got started. If you guys are familiar with that. I think that's how some of that got started. So then Neil Smith star they were just still doing some production, but us on the private land side, we didn't take any of that seed anymore. We buy all of our seed. We don't do any of the production. So I think you can have both. And I certainly don't want to speak for partners like DNR, INHF, or Polk County Conservation, but I think they also do both. I know for a fact they do. So we had do cost share programs with those folks and they buy a lot of seed. You know, John Judson, I'm not sure if they've bought and purchased from you guys, Allen Dan, where they've sourced it. Nicolas Lirio (29:01.976) Yeah, yeah. Each one of those entities I just mentioned, they've all bought seed for Andrew Diallesandro (29:05.442) From it. Yeah. But I think they also have small production plots for conservative species or maybe the volunteer force or whatever. I would probably Kent Boucher (29:14.582) Birds are pooping on us and Andrew Diallesandro (29:17.942) Bet they that they purchase more than they actually grow out. But again, I to your point, I think there is room for both. And that's the stance Fish and Wildlife Service takes now. At Neil Smith, we don't do any more production. We just because of the numbers, the capacity, the invasive species, you know, we can't really look and say, Hey, that seed's gonna be clean. So we th we just don't do it anymore. So we buy all of our seed, and especially on the private land side. We cost share folks like yourselves or even with the landowners to buy seed from folks like yourselves and Alan Dan, shooting star, prairie moon, all those folks. Yeah. So I think there's room for both. Nicolas Lirio (29:49.272) There's there's Kent Boucher (29:50.668) I have more respect for the the Kent Boucher (29:58.104) For the government programs who are actually growing it and selling it than like huge NGOs that are buying it and selling it. And I get it, we're probably you know, there there probably is more More seed that goes on the ground that way, but now you're also have this huge competitor that has all this other you know, set aside funding to be your competitor. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, well, why don't you that with the big pen industry? Why don't you do that with the paper industry? Why don't you I mean you could sell all sorts of things. Why's it gotta be our industry? Andrew Diallesandro (30:38.488) Yeah we and we have struggled with that a little bit too or something that we're mindful of in on the private land side is you know we're you know we we buy seed for prairie restoration but we also do enhancement, seed removal, woody brush removal. Most of the time we pay contractors to come in with the equipment to do that. sometimes we do it ourselves. Yeah. Where where it makes sense, where it's small scale. So again, you know, it's very similar to what the scenario you're talking about with buying seed, and we just try to find balance. Yeah. And again, you know, we're There's only four of us here in the state, four biologists in the state. Five biologists if you include me, but I'm washed up as been biologists. I sit behind my desk. Come on now, let's call face paint. I sit behind my desk now. But you know, so there's only so many of those projects we can do. You we have to scale by contracting and and getting money to the contractor so that they can do it. Yeah. In larger acres. Nicolas Lirio (31:29.014) I my least favorite thing to compete against is grant money that is going to an established company. we've never taken it. I've thought about applying specifically for education grants because I'm like, I'm pretty sure the education we do with the podcast or tours we do here, I'm like, I'm pretty sure we could have grants that support that. I also don't mind grants for businesses and farms just starting out. I actually think that's basically needed. Kent Boucher (31:56.628) Seed money basically. Nicolas Lirio (31:57.73) Yep, yep, yeah. I d I don't mind that at all. I really don't like competing against grant money that to establish businesses. Now I ha Kent Boucher (32:09.174) Wait, you just said you were okay with it to establish business. Nicolas Lirio (32:11.82) No, I'm really not okay with I don't I don't No no esta if it's to establish a business. But but if it's going to Yeah if you're not already established and you're trying to get a thing going and you can prove that you've put some work in already and you just need you just need 80,000 bucks to get over the hump or to buy some odd piece of equipment or you know I I'm all for that actually. I I don't like when a company is Kent Boucher (32:15.404) You said you were okay with the seed money. Kent Boucher (32:22.245) Already established. Nicolas Lirio (32:40.14) Making some odd few million bucks a year, they're established, they've got their equipment, they've got their build, and then they get a big grant to do what they are doing. Now, if the government said, Hey, this is a grant to grow and sell handpicked only species in a woodland area, and nobody's doing it, and the government says, We're gonna Kent Boucher (33:02.006) I think if it's I think if it's meeting a real need instead of just making sure you finish deeper in the black. Like if it Yeah. If it if it's if you go to like a r a rural community or something, you're like, hey, this is part of how we want to keep jobs, you know, in rural communities, you know, and you're here's some money so that you can hire another person to be on your team or something, then I think I'd be okay with that. Or like you said, if like the we Look, we're really good at these fifty species, everybody. We know that there's, you know, six hundred more, but nobody grows them because it's really hard. So this is to help you help compensate. And maybe you do that too with the employment thing, not just, hey, we want you to have another person working there, but yeah, because it's super hard to grow prairie flocks. Andrew Diallesandro (33:46.455) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (33:46.924) And I I don't I don't want to be too black and white. There's just tons of nuance and I I get it. And I get for the you know, the the government or different departments helping provide a resource for conservation and for the natural resource. Tons of nuance. It's just I total I can see both sides and I wanted to pick someone's brain about it. But shifting back to Kent Boucher (34:08.302) He's running for office, by the way. Nicolas Lirio (34:10.294) Me? dude, you couldn't pay me enough right now to to run for office. I actually I told Kent and I do this like a billion dollars, but you have to do this. And I we got up to like ten billion dollars, but you have to be president of the United States. And both of us were like, never you couldn't pay us enough. I wonder, you know, if the if the semi truck came pulling up with ten billion dollars. I wonder how much my integrity would stay intact. But I I at this point there's nothing that you could make me want to do. Kent Boucher (34:40.396) You gotta make it all four years, anyway. Nicolas Lirio (34:42.797) Someone test me on this. Somebody test me on but I want to go back to Neil Smith because in the first talking about government and money, you guys used to have a bunch of staffers doing all sorts of stuff on Neil Smith. And now there's like there's literally like three of you. and then Pauline Dromney, shout out to her. She volunteers a ton and she's out there doing a bunch of work. There's probably other volunteer workers that are doing a ton. What what are and I know like I don't wanna put you in a corner where you're having to say stuff you you don't want to say. I Andrew Diallesandro (35:06.061) No. Nicolas Lirio (35:12.364) I've just black and white, what was happening when there was funding, how much less funding is there now, and what's ha what's not happening now that there isn't that funding. Andrew Diallesandro (35:21.282) Yeah. Yeah. So just just to you know, I can speak to most of that, but just to draw the distinction, like I'm technically not a refuge employee. Mm-hmm. I just hang my hat there. That's my office is. But we all wear the same same badge, right? Same fish and wildlife service logo. So you know, we support each other that way. So back back in the day, you know, at the in Neil Smith and as a prime, you know, there was up there was just twenty staff there. Wow. And then you throw seasonals and interns. And a solid volunteer crew. I mean there could be thirty people walking around there and the cubicle space has it's set it's set up for that now. But they're empty. Right. So back then they had, you know, volunteers would go out and hand harvest seed. Again, when there was more restoration going on at Neil Smith, you know, they hand harvest that seed for those restorations. They would then go out and do the woody management, the locusts, you know, undesirable tree species, girdle those, cut those down, do stumps, you know. We're half an hour from Des Moines, I think it was I can't remember what the number, two hundred fifty thousand is visitors a year is was was popping into my head, but you know, I could be off on that, but probably not by much. We had a very solid visitor service program. The refuge was open six days a week, Monday through Saturday. Now, you know, I mean because we had that rainstorm two years ago, the refuge building isn't even open to the public now. But before that it was only open like Thursday, Friday, Saturday. And then it was Friday, Saturday, two days a week to have a visitor services program. For this great resource that's only half an hour from Des Moines. So when you lose capacity like that, you have to start making some hard decisions on what are you gonna provide. And then, you know, like we're talking about prescribed fire, you know, the crew's burning. We have collateral duty folks, you know, myself and and my staff and the refuge manager, but again we can't that's not enough to actually meet the minimum qualifications or the minimum standards for an actual burn out there. So we have to bring in more resources. So It's across the board when you lose staff like that. It's it's you know, visitor services, education interpretation, the actual habitat management side, you lose capacity to do all of those things. So it's really across the board. But now, like I said, you know, back in the day that upwards of twenty to thirty staff with volunteers and and interns, now there's three refuge staff. You know, the ri the refuge manager, the maintenance, the maintenance worker, and then the visitor services manager. That that's it. Andrew Diallesandro (37:44.344) The other people that are there are me, the state private lands coordinator and two private lands biologists. Now we do still do have some volunteers and like there's some volunteers out there now that are doing traffic control as we do prescribed fire. So huge lifts there. Right. And then we've got two or three interns starting that do the herbicide in the summer, some of the management things in the summertime, but you know, that's a far cry from what that refuge had before. Nicolas Lirio (38:06.936) How many how many you know, thinking thinking keeping it efficient and and saving as many of of the public's dollars as as they can, what is an appropriate amount for what it takes to run that place? Not growing out anything else, not in more programs, but just kind of what was there? What's an appropriate amount of staffing? Oof. Andrew Diallesandro (38:27.33) That's a good question. You know, certainly need the maintenance worker. you know, he c he's worth his weight in gold. Obviously refugee manager for all the administrative stuff. I mean, if we could have, you know, the visitor service manager who we have, another park ranger, w which was a position we did have to do more public education, particularly in the summertime with the school groups that come out, the summer program groups that come out just to do interpretation. At least another one of those. it'd be great if we had a refuge biologist, you know, you'd mentioned Karen Visty Sparkman, she retired two, three years ago, kinda not too far for after Pauline. just to do some of the management of like are we meeting our objectives with the management we have? If we could have two more refugee staff to actually do some of the management, some of the tree work, some of the vegetation. I mean, you know, I could build a pretty long list of how many folks we need, but yeah, right now three is is it's challenging on the system. No doubt. Well Nicolas Lirio (39:22.998) Wow. Does do you know how much money was actually cut from Neil Smith? Andrew Diallesandro (39:30.102) I don't. I don't. I haven't seen the refugees budget, I so I I can't speak to that. Nicolas Lirio (39:35.564) sure I'm it's gotta be public, right? I'm sure it's like a Google se search away. Andrew Diallesandro (39:38.232) Yeah, I'm sure you could get that. Yeah, I'm sure you could find it. If not, you could do a foyer request and get get some of that. Nicolas Lirio (39:43.788) Man, foya is magic. I love using fo Kent Boucher (39:46.254) Boy yeah. There was some major storm damage done at the facilities out there recently too. Andrew Diallesandro (39:50.11) twenty twenty four. July thirtieth, twenty twenty four. Afternoon that st a storm came through and I've never seen hail that intense for that long, ever. And the roof out there is is a rubber, so a P V C technically. But when it gets cold like that and then you get that hail, it goes from being flexible to rigid and it just punched right through. I mean The whole roof was was basically Nicolas Lirio (40:21.038) And federal government buildings are self insured. So is it fixed at all? Andrew Diallesandro (40:28.846) So they you know, the crews are out there, they put a shortly thereafter they put a temporary roof on. and then now they're actually going through plans to see what what they're gonna do. are they gonna renovate, are they gonna Kent Boucher (40:39.982) So it is op the facility's like operable and everything. Andrew Diallesandro (40:42.86) For the staff. It's not open to the public, but the staff, the administrative Yep, all that stuff. We took all the specimens out, moved it to another refuge. there's three conics containers in the parking lot now with a lot of the stuff that was in the office. so yeah, it's it's an interesting state, we'll just say that. but yeah, like you know, there's plans moving forward. I don't know what those plans are, what what the final decision's gonna be. Kent Boucher (40:45.986) Museum is all closed still? Andrew Diallesandro (41:10.922) But I would expect something pretty soon on what they're gonna do and a timeline for that. Nicolas Lirio (41:15.064) Federally owned ground. Yep. Man, Knoxville had the V a giant VA hospital. I mean, it was a comp it was like a college complex of a VA hospital for a while. And when the VA hospital closed down, Knoxville had a terrible issue trying to get access to be able to develop that VA hospital. What do they need to tear down the buildings or put a college there or whatever they wanted to do? They couldn't get access because Yeah, and and the VA Kent Boucher (41:41.59) Well it's federal and Nicolas Lirio (41:44.322) didn't own it. There's like another department in the government that actually has the owning of the land. Huh. and it was very complicated it and Kent Boucher (41:52.664) Well to sell to sell any federal land I think you have to have approval by Congress, don't you? Yeah. Andrew Diallesandro (41:59.45) Yep. So I don't know how the VA would work. I don't know if GSA administers it or actually who owns the land, but in our case, you know, we're a federal land management agency. It's it's US Fish and Wildlife Service. Nicolas Lirio (42:00.462) Interesting. Nicolas Lirio (42:10.806) Interesting. We had to get Chuck Grassley's ear. That's what it ended up taking. Is it took a couple years of getting Chuck Grassley's ear and then it took a couple of years after that to actually get it punched through. The so for the wildlife though, are three people enough for a herd of bison and a herd of elk? Andrew Diallesandro (42:29.678) y so yeah, that's a good that's a good question. So each year annually we do our bison roundup and we have other staff come in. So we have our service veterinarian who is out in Montana. she has since retired but I think is volunteering. we have other staff from other refugees come to do our bison roundup to do the health checks. you know, things like that. for the most part those bison are pretty self sufficient in, you know, roughly thousand acre enclosure that they have. How many are there? I think we're right around fifty right now. Wanna say. probably expecting more pretty here pretty soon with calving, but Andrew Diallesandro (43:12.738) So you during that bison roundup, depending on so again, this is where the refuge manager would come in, but you know, we're part of there's a Department of Interior strategy for min for managing the bison herd. So between the Park Service, you know, BLM units Andrew Diallesandro (43:30.764) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Fish and wildlife service. So yeah, we're Kent Boucher (43:33.858) out of commission. Nobody's working here anymore. Got giant wild animals. Andrew Diallesandro (43:38.478) Yeah, if you look Walnut Creek, there's a barbersalt can with some like new party special stuff inside floating down it. Yeah. But no, we're part of the Department of Interior's Bison Management Plan. And they, you know, based on what's going on with herd genetics, herd health, they manage and will send bison from Neil Smith elsewhere. They'll send them to, you know, some of the county conservation boards in Iowa also have bison herds, nature conservancy. So again, I don't know like where they go and and like what decision or or what threshold they meet for for making those decisions and where and when, but yeah, we do ship bison off to other units from a genetic health standpoint. Nicolas Lirio (44:14.59) Mm. Interesting. Are are are are they purebred bison? Andrew Diallesandro (44:18.088) I believe they are. I think they can originally came from was it the Yellowstone? This is where I get myself in trouble not knowing not knowing the system, say it confidently. Just not if you're on the bottom. Kent Boucher (44:25.922) There's there's nothing like AI or figure this out. Nicolas Lirio (44:33.65) man, you want to know something scary. I don't think I no no, I can't turn my signal on, otherwise it'll connect to the computer. Okay. The so something scary is we put the transcripts of these on our website. And one time I Googled a thing, and one of the transcripts came up as an authoritative answer from Gemini. Right? And what's scary about that is for the most part I Kent Boucher (44:36.002) Look it up, Nick. Do do a quick little The connector. Nicolas Lirio (45:00.212) Ninety five percent I think of the information or more is very accurate that we say on this podcast. But like there are a lot of words said on this podcast. And so that five percent is actually about forty percent of what I say. And so that that freaks me out. It's like, no, Google's like recognizes the podcast as like having answers to questions. That freaks me out. So y this is gonna be out there. People are gonna quote you for years. You know, the the Congress is gonna read everything you say in front of everyone just to make sure it's all true. Your job will be on the line. That'll be good. So with with the bison, do you I'm I'm real curious about bison grazing. I'm actually working with a gentleman and we're setting up the he's setting up a beautiful farm and he's trying to get prairie to integrate with bison grazing. Yeah. When Our understanding and Bob Jackson talked about this, you want diversity 'cause bison kind of understand which plants are the best what time of year. Kent Boucher (45:57.388) Gemini's got an answer for us. so far. Not not bad. Fort Fort Niagara, National Wildlife Refuge four males and four females came from there. And then additional bison were later brought in from looks like a it's the C SKT bison range, which I don't know if that's a if that's a federal Nicolas Lirio (45:59.308) Hit it, hit me. Andrew Diallesandro (46:26.562) Confederated Kutinae Salish. Yeah. It used to be it used to be a refuge before it was transferred. Nicolas Lirio (46:31.546) Okay, perfect. Kent Boucher (46:32.652) So so some from Montana and some from Nebraska, according to Gemini. Yep. But they cite Iowa PBS as their resource. Nicolas Lirio (46:40.236) Yeah. Okay. I didn't know if they it was citing our podcast. Not quite Gemini. Kent Boucher (46:43.848) Is Nicholas Lirio? Andrew Diallesandro (46:47.656) The refuge manager, he's done you know, he's with that group and that team that meets with the department the management plan, right? 'Cause he's at one of those refugees. So I can't think was it last year I think PBS came out or two years ago maybe? Mm-hmm. So yeah, that would be the Kent Boucher (46:59.928) Two it was two years ago and Carol told me he couldn't sleep that night after watching the Ken Burns on the on the bison 'cause it was like so disturbing to him. He was having he was having nightmares after Nicolas Lirio (47:12.792) And with just the gloominess of the of the state of all of it and everything. Kent Boucher (47:17.11) Well yeah, just like what happened to Bison in America. Yeah. That's the documentary you're talking about, right? The one that came out on P Andrew Diallesandro (47:23.062) So I think from PBS I think they they did something or Iowa PBS I Neil Smith. Yeah. Kent Boucher (47:27.867) okay. I thought you were talking about the Ken Burns Nicolas Lirio (47:30.892) Yeah, bison. Man, Ken Vurds, what legend. The but for the bison, do you notice or see at all what they prefer to graze on? And or any of their grazing habits? Andrew Diallesandro (47:42.26) Yeah. definitely obviously definitely the grass is it you know, you look inside the enclosure, outside the enclosure is two very very different systems, right? Hm. You know, and the one that kinda got me, so the first time I was there, so I got I got to Neil Smith at in twenty nineteen. and it was that spring we were burning and we were burning in the enclosure. Doing our stuff and we're getting to the point where we were starting to close the loop and the bison were inside. Of like where the fire is and we're just like, do we keep burning here? What's going on? The burn boss who'd been there plenty. He burned there. He's like, Keep going, they'll figure it out. Keep going. Close the loop and you know, the headfire's moving towards them and they they're all laying down and just they like they don't care. Fire got close, they stood up and then just walked found the gap and walked right out. But that gap was there because it was grazed down. Yeah. Like it's not a full s rank stand of grass that you know, like you see out here or that you see outside of the enclosure. They know what's going on. They like it's evolved with that. They know like no big deal. We're out, and then the next day they were back in there, they're gonna start looking for green sh Kent Boucher (48:47.176) Did it do other? Nicolas Lirio (48:56.017) I heard they follow the fire. Andrew Diallesandro (48:57.848) Big time. Man. Big time. They know what's going on. Kent Boucher (49:00.568) Did any other wildlife that were in the enclosure gather to those gray spots like rabbits or or so all of them just kinda went? Andrew Diallesandro (49:05.47) yeah. Yeah, they figure it out. They figure it out for sure. But I just like it was so cool to see it the first time 'cause you're you're in the enclosure with them when we're doing these guy fire operations and they didn't care like at all. They just stood up and walked, got in a single file, walked right out. And it wasn't it wasn't like a huge headfire like like we saw yesterday because that thing was ripping across the prairie and it was a full rank stand, but it's so patchy where they graze that You know, there's a lot of gaps. It's less intense here, more intense over here where they didn't graze. And they just tr walked right out. Nicolas Lirio (49:40.354) What it w so there is a an issue with native pasture mixes that we put together where it is very hard to have a third green up, I call it. Some people call it a second greener, but you've got your cool season, easy to do, wild rice, June grass, I mean depending on where you're at, blue grandma even. you got your warm season, that's obvious. Big blue sim, Indian grass, eastern gamograss, which is kinda in between and maybe even switchgrass. the What is what are they grazing on starting in like September, October, November? Andrew Diallesandro (50:15.68) So I think they're I don't know if there's that part. Yeah, so there's still I mean, there's still some brome you know, in that unit. So when that's greening up on that in the fall again, some of the forbs, but man, they're just they're down there getting you know some of the grass is still some of the forbs. I mean they all year, even in the wintertime you'll see going through the snow. I mean, there there's plenty of forage out there during the wintertime, so they're grazing on whatever is out there. It's very grass heavy in the in the enclosure. there are some forms. I think I think they've grazed down, you know, they're pretty selective on some of those forbs. Like it's less diverse in you know, for me looking at it, it's less divorce in that in d diverse in that enclosure than it is outside. On some of those managed units that haven't been grazed that we've been fairly decent on a burning on a you three to five interval to keep that diversity there. Inside, you know, like they They they have free rain, you know. It's not we don't set up sub subunits with inside that or paddocks if you will. They have access to the whole thing. Kent Boucher (51:22.082) Does the refuge have to do any supplemental feeding? Andrew Diallesandro (51:25.178) usually not. I mean we do have bales when we're doing roundup to get them into the enclosure. To g to to get them in. But typically not. Kent Boucher (51:35.738) That's amazing. Yeah, I gotta imagine it's a lot of I mean, there's just some Forbes where you go and check in the middle of winter and it's like nothing's probably still susceptible to like Roundup right now. You know, like there's enough green there. I don't know if they would really take it down to the roots at that time of year. Probably not. But there's still like I wouldn't feel comfortable spraying it. You know what I mean? If it was a production field. Yep. And and you know, like foxglove beard tongue, you know, that that stuff always seems to have like a little bit of green. Golden Alexanders always seems to have a little bit of green. sh wild strawberries, you know, those things are some of the earliest things to to green up and Nicolas Lirio (52:19.16) Prairie Brome. Right. But what about the elk? What are they what are they munching? Andrew Diallesandro (52:24.308) Same stuff. Same stuff. They're also browsing too. I mean if you look, you know, look outside of the enclosure, there's some areas where we struggle with woody with woody species, woody encroachment, you know, shrubs, things like that. You don't see that inside the enclosure. So I think they're browsing on it. whatever they're rubbing on, rolling on, I mean, it keeps the woodies pretty much at bay inside the enclosure too. So that's another thing that we see. Kent Boucher (52:47.598) Do you think the elk do more to keep the woodies at bay or or do the bison? Andrew Diallesandro (52:51.726) I don't know. I think they're both probably pretty good at it with between the browsing of the elk and then, you know, the the bison just rubbing on it. Yeah. knocking it over, just keeping it out. We do burn inside there still as well, so you know, on a on a rotation, so the fire's part of it. but I think less to a much lesser extent than the elk and the bison inside. Definitely. Kent Boucher (53:12.888) Do deer ever get inside the And how do they behave around the elk and the Andrew Diallesandro (53:18.232) Just normal. Just normal. Kent Boucher (53:19.726) Just kinda greys out there. So you get like that almost that little American serengeti. Yeah. Andrew Diallesandro (53:23.736) Yeah. Yeah, it's pretty cool. There's deer that figure out the ways to get in, you know. but not a ton, not a ton, but there's usually particularly around October, November, you know, there's usually a buck or two that finds their way in there because they know that's then they're no hunting zone and they know where it's safe. Yeah. For sure. Fascinating. They figure it out the deer, they figure it out quick. Yeah. They figure it out real quick, but then especially during gun season when Nicolas Lirio (53:45.166) That that is fact. Andrew Diallesandro (53:51.864) You know, when the the first shotgun season starts, you see the deer in the no hunt units. 'Cause they've they've all been pushed there. Nicolas Lirio (53:58.83) Do you get any rattlesnakes out there? Andrew Diallesandro (54:00.916) I haven't seen any rattlesnakes. I'm sure we may have had them at one point, but I don't I don't think we do. Kent Boucher (54:09.25) Yeah. How's a shed hunting inside that enclosure? Andrew Diallesandro (54:12.31) It's pretty good. Exceptional pretty good. Pretty good. You have to put him in a w in a white white pickup in the back end of a white pickup to carry him out. Yeah. Yeah, there's some de you can find some decent chairs, especially now with the prescribed fire that's going on. Kent Boucher (54:15.269) my god. Kent Boucher (54:30.808) Find a good elk sheds this spring. Andrew Diallesandro (54:33.246) I haven't found any elk sheds yet, but our mainness guy's pretty he's pretty good at finding those Kent Boucher (54:38.722) He's pretty well for him. If you ever need some help, I mean Nicolas Lirio (54:42.104) Yeah that you'll ever Andrew Diallesandro (54:54.09) Yeah, he don't get he sound he doesn't get too fired up about the prairie guy. He's a prairie guy. Nicolas Lirio (54:56.958) Doesn't care at all. Kent Boucher (55:00.002) Yep, he's a purist, yeah. Nicolas Lirio (55:01.804) Yeah. Man, are there so obviously the bison and the elk you brought in, but is there are there any other critters out there that that was my dad's thing. He just loved seeing the wildlife interact with with their habitat. He loved it. And but do you you guys have any other wildlife that's real cool to see out there? Andrew Diallesandro (55:19.418) I mean, you know, I grew up a hunter, so like I always kinda come from that perspective. You know, there's a lot of deer out there, a lot of pheasants, rabbits in in certain areas. You know, we saw a lot of flying out yesterday when when the fire was going on. So, you know, that's cool to see shorted owls. in the in winter time. Jackrabbits. No jackrabbits. You know, there is none. Nicolas Lirio (55:37.762) What about jackrabbits? I would have loved it I love to Kent Boucher (55:43.756) There'd be some out there every now and then with the bison. Andrew Diallesandro (55:46.346) We had another person who was asking about jackrabbits too, and I was like, I I haven't seen him. I asked her I asked the staff too, particularly the maintenance worker who's you know, he's from the area as well. Yeah. worked there, but he said it's been a long time since he's seen a jackrabbit in that that part of the county or or period. Yeah. Kent Boucher (56:02.392) The stadium is. Nicolas Lirio (56:04.404) Wow. Okay. So before we go, because we we gotta wrap up because Kent's got a burning schedule he's gotta get to today. I wanna ask you Kent Boucher (56:12.046) Is it really that deep in the conver I'm having a blast here? Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (56:14.971) I had a good time, but my friend's gotta go burning. He let me know like eight times Kent Boucher (56:19.694) Well, we d we as a company owe this person a pretty big favor. I'm sure. Nicolas Lirio (56:23.596) Yeah. the you most people do not see elk and bison interact with their native landscape. And so because of that, I think you are I don't know, you would have special insight in answering this question. We've asked it a few other times. If everyone in Iowa backed up, moved out of here, what do you think? What are some of the things that would evolve on the landscape over the next some odd years? Kent Boucher (56:58.4) I think we should just call this Jurassic Park. Nicolas Lirio (57:01.25) So the Jurassic Park scenario. Kent Boucher (57:03.884) No, this episode we're just gonna call it Jurassic Park. Iowa's Jurassic Park. Andrew Diallesandro (57:08.55) So what would happen if man just just picked up and left and we let what's here now just go? Nicolas Lirio (57:15.586) Yep. Cornfields and bean fields empty as they are. Mm-hmm. Andrew Diallesandro (57:20.386) I hate to say it, but I think we see a lot more trees. yeah, I mean we're we fight. Nicolas Lirio (57:23.095) Okay. Like the goats and the cows would escape and just breed like like Catholic rabbits and just hammer those trees down. Kent Boucher (57:33.11) Goodness, Nick, that's quite a reference there. You never heard that before? Andrew Diallesandro (57:36.203) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (57:38.699) No, that's just Kent Boucher (57:40.46) I don't think that's safe to say in this day and age on a on a public forum. Nicolas Lirio (57:44.11) Sorry, sorry to all the Catholic rabbits out there. Andrew Diallesandro (57:51.43) perhaps. I I o man, I I guess I haven't thought about that. Kent Boucher (57:52.027) yeah. Nicolas Lirio (57:56.748) This isn't something you just think about every day. I think about this way too often. Andrew Diallesandro (58:00.494) Unfortunately not. yeah, I mean I think about what happens when you just let go just from the perspective I have now and just trees, man. We battle trees, you know, even on the restorations we do on private lands, you know, if you're if they're not burning, if they're not doing some type of maintenance, these areas that we see the prairie, particularly, you know, using Neil Smith as the as the reference is just the tree encroachment. Yeah. I do. Nicolas Lirio (58:22.232) You know Chris Helzer? We had a podcast with him and he was like, Look, we're starting to just talk about what does it look like to just have shrubby prairies? Like as part of the landscape. You know, that maybe we're past it and that's just the new way that prairies Andrew Diallesandro (58:35.342) There's you know, I think there's we need to have some of that. Like we need to have you know, the like the dog with thickets, the plum thickets. I like you know, that is a valuable habitat component, right? It's just when it takes over and you can't burn anymore or particularly eastern red cedar, my goodness. You know, we we all know how bad that is for if you're Kent Boucher (58:52.238) But even still, you know, that was my my brother actually he listens to our podcast and he he he gets annoyed by how much people knock eastern red cedars because they are a native tree. Yeah. And if you're a shed hunter or deer hunter, they provide some pretty valuable cover. Yeah. And and but yeah, I'm so often you see form these monocultures, these huge yeah. And and as a shed hunter, when I see a monoculture of Eastern red cedar, I don't even bother. 'Cause I've done it enough times where I've gone in there and nine times out of ten, yeah, there might be one really old antler in there back before it was this choke hole of cedars. But it the it gets so thick that wildlife really don't even use it 'cause they don't feel like they can person this is what I think the reasoning is they don't feel like they can safely escape because it's such a maze, you know. It's too thick to get in and out easily. But but yeah, it's I agree with you that yeah, there we do need some of that habitat though. Andrew Diallesandro (59:54.03) Yeah. Particularly for the pollinators, early in the season, you know, American plum, some of the woody species, even even maple, you know, that's particular particularly for if we think about, you know, threatened endangered species, which falls under fish and wildlife service, rusty badge bumblebee, American bumblebee, some of these species that are now you know, their numbers are declining, they need those early early resources and a lot of times they come from woody plants, right? Because we're not seeing our prairie species bloom until much later. So we you know, we need a certain you know, we need that component, but it's just it's problematic when it takes over and then you lose the stuff that should be then blooming in the summertime to carry the rest of that you know, those colonies through. So Kent Boucher (01:00:36.64) Yeah, too much appetizer, not enough dinner. Andrew Diallesandro (01:00:38.786) There you go. Interesting. There you go. Nicolas Lirio (01:00:40.686) Earlier we were in the truck, we're hanging out, and you were explaining to me that you kind of break down why landowners care about conservation into three parts. And that was fascinating. I your audience should hear that. Andrew Diallesandro (01:00:55.618) Yeah, so it's the I don't know, they call it the landowner's values triangle. And I was explaining to Nick. So, you know, in agriculture community, you know, this'll this should resonate. So, you know, if you think about the soil textural triangle, right? Every soil's made up of a certain percentage of sand, stilt, and clay, right? Right. Well, when you're working in with private landowners doing voluntary conservation, it's a framework that You it was explained to me one time and as I thought about it, you know, it it works out well. But instead of sand, still and clay, replace those points of those triangles with a dollar sign, legacy, and recreation. Landowners make decisions about to engage in in conservation or or voluntary conservation based on some percentage of those, right? So for me, Partners Program, we're a cost share program. We prov we provide money to either the landowner themselves or to contractors to get things done. That's the dollar sign. It I want to do something here, I can't pay for it. You know, we check that box pretty easily. Recreation, the deer hunter, the shed hunter, the turkey hunter, you know, the the the waterfowl hunter who restores a wetland on their property. That's what recreation looks like, you know. Then there's legacy, which actually I've I resonate with most and I see more people willing to engage based on the legacy percentage or or that legacy piece. Mm-hmm. This farm has been in my family for a hundred years. I want to I want to continue to do this and keep this there. I have an endangered species on my property. You telling me I can do a prairie or something like this and help that species. I put that under the legacy piece. Or, you know, I remember when I was a kid and I walked with my grandpa. We used to shoot mallards out here. There used to be, you know, all sorts of butterflies. I want to see that again. That's that legacy piece. So you got as a private landscape. person, you need to identify where that landowner is on that triangle, and then that's how you sell conservation. You're a turkey hunter? Well, this is why we need to do prescribed fire. You burn this thing in the spring, turkeys are gonna or they're a visual bird. They're gonna be able to see through that woodland and they're gonna see where all the acorns at, they're gonna be there. That's where you need to kill So you start talking about prescribed fire. You talk about woodland management, you talk about some of that stuff. Fish and Wildlife Service, they have a cost share program that's that you know checks that Andrew Diallesandro (01:03:15.176) money or that dollar signbox or that what they need, whatever that value is, we can help you pay for this. a lot of private landowners are land rich, cash poor. You know, if you bring dollars to the table to do a prairie restoration because it's if it's a you know it's it's a focus area or is adjacent to a refuge or something, you know, you can check that value. So as a private lands person, you need to know how to ask the right question is to ask to g identify where that landowner is and then you speak to that. If they care about waterfowl, you talk about waterfowl. If if they care about water quality, then we can talk about that too. We're doing a lot of oxpo restorations right now in Iowa, tile fit oxbows to improve water quality. For Fish and Wildlife Service, that's fish habitat, that's migratory waterfowl habitat. But that landowner may actually care about water quality. We can clean that water up. Forty five to ninety percent of the nitrates coming into that are gonna be filtered out before it gets into the Des Moines River. We can talk about the nitrate issues in in Des Moines, right? So If you care about water quality, great. I have a program for you. If you care about endangered species, Rusty Patch Bumblebee, great. I have a program for you. I like that. If you want to shoot more deer, great. I have a program for you. Right. So I need to know about all of that, be a generalist to be able to drive home and sell conservation to that landowner or to help them get to yes. Kent Boucher (01:04:36.256) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:04:37.388) Man Yeah, I I think that it 'cause every conservationist has a role of being a good salesperson for the outdoors. Yeah. and some Some things of the outdoors sell themselves really well. Monarch Butterp butterflies, Saving Bees. they're pretty good at selling themselves, but there's a lot of stuff. The unwanted, the less sexy, the non-ascolorful, the the smaller, the quieter things that they just can't sell themselves. And so I I see as as actually one of my great roles in conservation is is helping selling those things that selling the sand the most boring grass of all time. Kent Boucher (01:05:14.924) Selling the sand drop seed. Andrew Diallesandro (01:05:20.226) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:05:21.25) I love you, Sandropsy. Kent Boucher (01:05:23.672) But if you had to make a mix of the most of the three most boring grasses and the three most boring forbs, what would you make? Nicolas Lirio (01:05:31.338) I would pick man, man, man. Rough drop seed, sand drop seed. Nicolas Lirio (01:05:42.421) And Nicolas Lirio (01:05:46.158) Silky wild rye. Hairy wild dry. So boring. So believe it. Well, Canada at least hangs over. It's bigger. Barely. It's more like Virginia, where it just kind of like I don't know. It's smaller. It's hardly even up to your knees. Yeah, it's just so boring. and it doesn't mean I don't love it. Yeah. It's just boring. And then for flowers, I would pick probably white sage. No. I no, not good. I like. Kent Boucher (01:05:50.488) Canada is more boring than so is silky. Kent Boucher (01:06:09.208) Gray headed comb flower. Andrew Diallesandro (01:06:11.426) Sage is boring. Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:06:14.69) Great. Illinois TikTok. Nicolas Lirio (01:06:16.17) Illinois Tictor Foil and then the other one is actually American water whorehound. yeah It has pretty little flowers, it's cool, but it's mostly just green. Looks weed. Yeah. Yep, those are you got you got anything else you'd throw in there? Me? Either of you guys. Kent Boucher (01:06:28.93) And that's a good that's a good that's a good pick. Kent Boucher (01:06:36.536) Grey headed comb fire just because it's like so so or maybe common milkweed. Like I was I Andrew Diallesandro (01:06:42.19) I was gonna l I'm gonna let you say it first, but I agree. Kent Boucher (01:06:45.288) Yeah, they're just like they got the Yeah, they I mean they're they're I like I love Love But man, they're just a dime a dozen, you know what I mean? Nicolas Lirio (01:06:46.85) Pink balls! Yeah. Andrew Diallesandro (01:06:55.726) I agree. I mean it's almost a blasphemy for Fish and Wildlife Servers to say something like that about milkweed right now, but it's kind of boring. Kent Boucher (01:07:01.25) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:07:01.39) On it honestly, I think world milkweeds more if just from a I'm I get excited when I see world milkweed. Like I'm very excited about it. But if you're just looking at it, apples for apples are just they they don't have any big pink ball. They're just short. Yeah. It's got a little bit of white on the top. And man. Well we really, really appreciate having you. Andrew Diallesandro (01:07:20.686) Yeah, it was fun. I appreciate you guys extending the invite and and having me. It's I was looking forward to it and it delivered. Nicolas Lirio (01:07:26.392) All right. Well before we go, if you could snap your finger, change anything about the world, what would you change? Andrew Diallesandro (01:07:32.524) I was I knew you asked this question, I was thinking about it. Kent Boucher (01:07:35.404) Name's a very specific project that's like a quick Nicolas Lirio (01:07:38.198) I wish the cars had Andrew Diallesandro (01:07:40.942) I was thinking about it, I guess, you know, working in in Illinois and Iowa and, you know, so much private land and and heavy agriculture. I wish I wish people would see their connection and see the opportunities on their farm where they can make a l a little bit of a difference for wildlife habitat conservation where you know there is space on every farm for some wildlife conservation. I wish if I could stand my fingers they would recognize it and knew where to go to get the answers and get the help to do it. Yeah. That's what I would change. That's a good idea. Nicolas Lirio (01:08:08.008) Interesting. That I I've been thinking about this a little bit. Like, if you had to focus on plant ecology or better fauna habitat when you were designing habitat, which one would get you a healthier outcome overall? And I I I don't know. I'm curious. Do you have any Andrew Diallesandro (01:08:28.229) I'm a plant guy. I mean I cut my teeth on prairie, you know, doing actually Pauline was the first person to hire me into the Fish and Wildlife Service doing vegetation surveys. So I learned prairie actually outgoing doing it, doing species identification. then that rolled into grad school to my thesis. So I was a plant guy, kind of a nerd and like like that, but you know, that wasn't my gateway to people. Like everything is now about people for me and partnerships and may and connecting the dots of like, okay, water quality, how do we do water quality? Well, wetlands, right? I know how to do wetlands. So th so we sell it that way or what sells you know, you talked about the monarch and pollinators. I mean, there's probably been no bigger boost to prairie conservation than the plight of the pollinators, right? So we can sell that. But it all starts to me, like when we're doing restorations, it's all to get a certain end state for the for the plant community. Like I'm a plant guy. Yeah. I always go back to plants. Nicolas Lirio (01:09:21.122) That is super cool. All right. Well, for everyone listening, you guys know, just like Drew, Drew. Sorry, Andrew. Drew. I I called him Andrew a bunch of I'm I'm kinda I'm I'm in a mood. I'm in a mood. We really appreciate you. Just like he was saying, you it it just it starts with you. It starts with the people that are gonna do the things and obviously that starts like conservation. It happens one mind at a time. Kent Boucher (01:09:29.902) Double down today. Double down today. Kent Boucher (01:09:50.391) How cold are you right now, Nick? Nicolas Lirio (01:09:51.724) Not too bad, 'cause I've been shaking like a leaf.