Nicolas Lirio (00:00.071) How before we get started, we'll have you do the intro, your name, your title, and this is the Prairie Farm Podcast, and then we can jump in in a little bit. Kent Boucher (00:08.396) And if you want to mention your new podcast in your title, that's that'd be great. Hal Herring (00:10.758) Sure. Okay. Nicolas Lirio (00:12.627) Yeah, yeah. Hal Herring (00:18.31) So do you want me to introduce myself? Yep. You got it. Kent Boucher (00:20.844) Yeah, just say hi, I'm how I'm Hal Herring and it'll patch into the intro eventually into the into the podcast. Hal Herring (00:25.872) You got it. Hey, I'm Hal Herring. I'm happy to be here at the Prairie Farm and hopefully I've to introduce myself a little bit. I've covered conservation and other stuff too, but at Field and Stream for twenty-seven years, I think. and I write for a lot of different publications. I'm finishing a book right now on the American public lands. Podcast called Carrying the Fire that I launched recently. it's kind of a focus on the voices of people who are carrying these old knowledge, history, homesteading, conservation, native plants. There's a lot of that. so I'm really happy to be here, y'all. I I'm a huge fan of this podcast. Kent Boucher (01:16.202) Awesome. Could could you just add one thing we can patch it in and just say and welcome to the Prairie Farm podcast. Nicolas Lirio (01:16.707) And thank you so much. Hal Herring (01:22.992) Yep. And welcome to the Prairie Farm Podcast. Kent Boucher (01:27.214) Perfect. Got that, Nick? Just let it just let just let it roll. Okay. Hal, we've been covering as as much as people who can listen to a few podcasts and read a few articles from you know a thousand plus miles away, the issue with the American prairie grazing permits Nicolas Lirio (01:28.507) Nice. Yep, yep. Kent, it's all you. Kent Boucher (01:57.71) And I read a book that you recommended to me by Betsy Gaines. I think it's called American Zion, if I remember correctly. Fantastic book. Anyone who's listening in needs to listen to that or read it. I listened to it while I was working last summer, learned so much. And in there she gets into grazing permits a little bit. Hal Herring (02:10.17) Yep. Kent Boucher (02:25.439) If I understand it correctly, because a lot of the a lot of the talk around this is the poor cattlemen, they would just like to graze their cattle, but they get their permits taken away by this big you know billion dollar supported conservation machine, which is American Prairie. And they're just once those permits are taken away, they can't get back. And I think that that is a false representation as to what's going on. And one of the the main things that I see as as being poorly represented there is those permits, they aren't like on the auction block, right? The once your family has a grazing permit, it it is yours to lose. I'm right. You just kind of renew it every year. Is that is that how that works out in the West with B L land? Hal Herring (03:25.538) If if you own if you own the property that's contiguous to it, you have first right. And and they usually don't let go. so which because if I if I own two hundred and fifty deeded acres, and I'm running cattle in a place that runs, say, eight to twelve cows per section, I'm gonna need that permit to stay in business, right? Kent Boucher (03:31.659) Okay. Hal Herring (03:55.533) And and the reason that that BLM land is there is because it wasn't claimed under the eighteen sixty two Homestead Act or the I mean, how many Homestead Act do we have, right? Desert and Land Act, the Desert Land Act, the Timber and Stone Act, the Eighteen Sixty Two Act, the nineteen nine, which John Wesley Powell said please don't do, where they gave a gave away all the arid west, Kent Boucher (04:07.061) Right. Kent Boucher (04:17.581) Hmm. Hal Herring (04:21.518) And then people, of course, abandoned a lot of that when it found out that there you couldn't make a living on it. And that became the Bureau of Land Management Lands. and so that that land is there under the management of the BLM because it couldn't put enough pounds on cows to pay a land tax if you owned it deeded. Kent Boucher (04:24.994) Right. Nicolas Lirio (04:30.525) Hmm. Kent Boucher (04:43.957) Sure. Hal Herring (04:44.524) And and if you ever traveled Nevada, you know 73% of Nevada is federally owned. And most most of that is BLM managed by the Bureau of Land Management. It's because nobody claimed those deserts, right? but if you go through eastern Montana or you go through Nevada with an Onex, which is something in a in northern Nevada, I've been doing a lot in the last few years. We had some jobs down there. Kent Boucher (04:50.551) Right, yeah. Kent Boucher (04:57.111) Yeah. Kent Boucher (05:09.293) Mm-hmm. Hal Herring (05:09.76) your onyx will show that every piece of water if you see a green thing out there and you look at your onyx, it will have been claimed under one of the homestead acts or the desert land act and it will be private. And so Kent Boucher (05:17.269) Yeah. Kent Boucher (05:25.261) Wow. So so anywhere anywhere that ki that is livable enough to make or or good enough to make a go at it with with livestock remains in in private control. Hal Herring (05:39.161) It was it was claimed under the Desert Land Act usually where you have to irrigate it a little bit, but it was it was kind of if you ever read Cadillac Desert by Mark Reisner. It's a big one. but yeah, but that's why we have all this, you know, and under the Taylor Grasing Act nineteen thirty-four, so everybody had to kind of support the Taylor Grazing Act because Nicolas Lirio (05:43.229) Hm. Kent Boucher (05:48.167) I I've started it but I have not finished it, you know. Yes, it is. It is a long book. Hal Herring (06:06.63) Free range was causing Johnson County War down in n eighteen ninety two, the Johnson County War in Buff between Buffalo, you know, Wyoming. One of my favorite stories in American history, really. Nate Champion makes the stand against the stock growers association and dies, you know, in a glorious standoff, right? it's so good. Well, so the the cattleman Kent Boucher (06:27.093) I I'm not familiar with this story. Just just give us give us give us the cliff notes here real quick. Hal Herring (06:34.792) after the US government had used the taxpayer money to fight the Sioux and and af after the Federman massacre, after the wagon box fight, all of that. So so we had militarily, we being the US, had militarily beaten or conquest conquested the Sioux. Right? They were they were no longer a military force. So they drove all the cows up from Texas. Kent Boucher (06:40.395) Okay, yeah. Hal Herring (07:04.282) to take advantage and the buffalo were exterminated about eighteen seventy six right in there. So there's all this grass, right? And so they begin settling that part of Wyoming, which is it's it's really very beautiful, around Buffalo, Sher Sheridan. And it was free, man. It was there was no claim to any of it, right? It it was just land. And it's a tough place to make it, but if you could make it so Kent Boucher (07:10.946) Yeah. Kent Boucher (07:18.679) Mm-hmm. Yep. Hal Herring (07:33.371) They did stuff you go to a site called Wyoming Tails and Trails. It's an incredible internet resource on this. And they were doing stuff like claiming all the sections in huge squares and then letting the government, the federal government, keep the inside, but nobody else could get to it. Kent Boucher (07:38.943) Okay, yeah. Nicolas Lirio (07:58.953) Hmm. Hal Herring (08:00.632) So this has been rife with like opportunistic, I wouldn't call it outright fraud, opportunistic capitalist endeavor from the very beginning, right? And so, which is not necessarily a bad thing. but these guys had their way, Wyoming Stock Growers Association had their way with that part of Wyoming for many, many years. And they built these small empires. This was Kent Boucher (08:06.509) Right. Hal Herring (08:29.498) This was these people wintered through the winter of eighteen eighty-six and eighty-seven, which almost destroyed the cattle industry in the West. Okay. So they made it. These guys are tough now. Like, you know, I'm not saying these ain't some Nambi pamby folks. They're tough. But they begin bringing in itinerant cowboys from all over. And Kent Boucher (08:33.356) Mm-hmm. Nicolas Lirio (08:37.746) Hmm. Kent Boucher (08:44.043) Right. Right. Hal Herring (08:52.59) Some of those guys wanted to build their own herds, right? So they began using the Homestead Act to claim, say, Chugwater, the Chugwater Creek. Well, if you control the water, you don't have to own the land over yonder. You can let the government have that and not pay taxes. And you have free range, but nobody else can use your range because you have the water source. Kent Boucher (08:56.065) Yeah. Kent Boucher (09:02.049) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kent Boucher (09:17.709) Yeah. Hal Herring (09:18.394) So that was really hard on these guys who had been there for say ten, twelve years. it's funny, there's a cool thing. Some of these guys were super tough people who had been they called them remittance men. And they were kicked out of like royal families in England because they were such wild they're so wild, right? They couldn't live in the old country. So they paid for them to come over to the United States and get out. Kent Boucher (09:32.769) Okay. Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (09:36.051) Hmm. Kent Boucher (09:43.766) Man, as a as a former teacher, that sounds that sounds like a a terrible a terrible thing for the people living out west. Let's get all the worst students in class, let's go put them in that class. Hal Herring (09:52.496) Yes, yeah. Nicolas Lirio (09:53.404) Yeah. Hal Herring (09:56.879) Yeah, yeah. And I'm I'm a gun guy, you know. I I wrote a book on on historic firearms and stuff, and a lot of these guys carried a webley bulldog. It's a little break open revolver, early revolver, and they're made in London at the time. And I was like, how come all these guys got webys? It's a 44, like a it's a weird little cartridge they don't use anymore. And the reason they had webleys because they're Englishmen, right? Nicolas Lirio (09:57.18) Yeah. Kent Boucher (10:09.024) Okay. Sure. Kent Boucher (10:24.587) Yeah, they brought it with them. Hal Herring (10:25.796) Yeah. And so anyway they the cowboys were branding a lot of what they call slicks, right? Which is an unbranded calf. So they were building their own herds. And the Wyoming Stock Growers Association got together and they they said we gotta clear these people out. They're all rustlers. And most of them were just homesteaders. Kent Boucher (10:33.719) Mm hmm. Okay. Kent Boucher (10:46.999) Mm-hmm. Hal Herring (10:50.404) So they got a a convoy of what they call the regulators out of Texas. They were gunmen. And they came in on a train to sha to Colorado somewhere and they picked them all up. And they claimed to have warrants for all these rustlers. And they then made this huge caravan and went through the country, you know, killing people. and Nicolas Lirio (10:58.163) Hmm. Kent Boucher (11:07.202) Mm-hmm. Hal Herring (11:17.292) At one point so the homesteaders decide to fight back. And Nate Champion was a famous cowboy there who had made some claims of his own homestead claims. They claimed he was a rustler. Everybody else claimed he wasn't. He was very popular. And they caught up to Nate Champion and one of his partners in a little bunkhouse. Kent Boucher (11:32.386) Mm-hmm. Hal Herring (11:40.423) trying to remember the name of the creek. Crazy Woman Creek, I think. It was the TN T T A ranch. And they laid siege to him. He they c they shot the other guy when he went out to take a leak in the morning and get coffee water. And then Nate Champion made this incredible stand. It's like something out of a you know out of a book. Kent Boucher (11:43.521) Okay. Kent Boucher (11:52.033) Mm-hmm. Kent Boucher (11:57.42) Yeah. Hal Herring (11:58.189) And he was able to write a few things before they burned him out. And he said, The cabin, you know, the cabin's totally on fire now. I I'm not gonna make it. And he's out there in his socks, right? 'Cause they they just got woken up. And this is in April, I think, so it it was a the weather was bad, so people weren't working that much, right? They're away they're sending that waiting time, right? And anyway, he went out and he he got killed. And they left him there. Kent Boucher (12:07.789) Yeah. Kent Boucher (12:17.749) Sure. Right, yeah. Hal Herring (12:27.704) And moved on the whole caravan to the next place. Well, when somebody found came by the ranch to see what was going on and they found him, they really, they were like, We're gonna we'll we'll see about this. They went to Buffalo, Wyoming, which was the home of the rustlers, which really was just a homesteader outpost, right? And they collected weapons and the local hardware store armed every able-bodied man, and they went out and confronted the Wyoming stock growers and the regulators. Kent Boucher (12:46.284) Yeah. Hal Herring (12:57.582) And they they holed them up at a big ranch where they had taken shelter. And the Texas guys said, hey man, we're losing this fight. I think we're all gonna be killed. Like we're gonna get hung. How about opening that trunk and show us those warrants you have for all these people we've been chasing? And there weren't any warrants. Kent Boucher (13:12.845) Yeah. Hal Herring (13:21.528) And so they kind of lost their support right from their own little militia, paramilitary. And the they had cut the telegraph lines. So the cap the cavalry, which was based around Cheyenne, who also did not like this stockgrowers association because they had killed a woman named Cattle Kate. I can't remember her last name. Kent Boucher (13:27.01) Mm. Kent Boucher (13:38.071) Mm-hmm. Hal Herring (13:46.971) They had hung them and they were like running this little sotty bar, like where a lot of the cavalrymen like to drink. And they had accused, falsely accused her of all kind of stuff, and they had hunk. They had actually hung her and her partner. And so the Calvarymen were not really po very they didn't like the regulators and the and the Wyoming stock growers guys. But somebody patched the telegraph lines together and the Calvary did come and save them because they were the leading Kent Boucher (13:52.181) Okay, yeah. Yeah. Kent Boucher (14:00.525) Yeah. Hal Herring (14:16.538) businessmen of the county, you know. And you can yeah, you c it's a really good American story. One of the things that it led to was people started going well the free reign stuff like that movie with Kevin Costner where they battle it out. that kind of yeah it's a great movie. And they they said somebody's gotta do something. Like Kent Boucher (14:18.135) Sure. Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (14:19.485) Hmm. Kent Boucher (14:24.268) Yeah. Kent Boucher (14:31.115) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I remember I remember that that's a good movie, yeah. Hal Herring (14:42.82) There was a guy down in the Arizona strip named Preston Nutter, who was he was one of the few people down there who wasn't a Latter-day Saints. But but he ran enormous numbers of cows out of the deserts there. And and he was like the ultimate libertarian free range guy, you know. But he he went to Washington and testified on behalf of getting the Taylor Grazing Act. Kent Boucher (14:50.87) Okay, yeah. Kent Boucher (15:00.941) Yeah. Hal Herring (15:07.3) Because people were just pouring cows out everywhere until there was no grass left whatsoever. That Kent Boucher (15:13.089) Yeah. Almost like a almost like a population crash event is what it's setting up for, like in nature, yeah. Hal Herring (15:19.618) It would be, yeah. Totally. And this is before they had the the the invasives were just coming in, right? Like cheat and and appweed and stuff that would reduce the carrying capacity of those ranges really quick. So the the old high protein bunch grass was still out there in the sage. It was still out there in the desert. And so you could run more cows before the introduction of cheat. Kent Boucher (15:26.614) Yeah. Kent Boucher (15:30.197) Right. Nicolas Lirio (15:31.091) Hm. Kent Boucher (15:38.583) Mm-hmm. Nicolas Lirio (15:43.165) Wow. Hal Herring (15:44.409) So the long and short, that's the the leases that the American Prairie have taken over are contiguous to these ranches that they have purchased. And they are atta attached. and so Kent Boucher (15:58.275) Yeah. And the permits the permits would have been open, right? When they it wasn't like they took those permits from somebody else. Hal Herring (16:07.204) N not really. When they bought the the ranch I I did a story about American Prairie really long time ago when they got started and I'm I'm gonna use that as the one I know. The Weederick ranch that they bought had an attached grazing lease and I don't know how big it is, but when they bought that ranch, they assumed control of that lease, unless they gave it up. You know, because you're the Kent Boucher (16:15.756) Mm-hmm. Kent Boucher (16:20.311) Yeah. Kent Boucher (16:31.711) Okay. I suppose could you jump could you hop over could you skip over someone in line for that grazing permit if let's say if somebody who's who does not have contiguous land with a section of BLM land, but maybe they have maybe they have land two miles away and so they you know, they're moving cows through through livestock trailers, putting them out there. But now you get a new landowner who is contiguous who does w also want to graze, can they can they pull your permit out from under you, even though you've had it, let's say for twenty years, you just didn't have contiguous land with it. But because there's that there's that preference point we'll say given to the other person who now wants to graze it as well, but they have the contiguous land, could that theoretically happen? Hal Herring (17:28.74) answer to that. I don't know how they I don't know how they work that out. Nicolas Lirio (17:30.387) Hmm. Hal, I I I'm curious. So so there's a lot of talk about extracting from the land, right? And now a conservative amount of extracting from the land can be very helpful to the land. There are many ways to extract from the land. For instance, an Iowa farm ground, you can graze it. That's technically extracting from the land. You but you can corn and bean it. Dramatically different ecological impacts and echo economic impacts. You've been thinking about this for thousands of hours. What Kent Boucher (17:33.472) Okay. Nicolas Lirio (18:03.269) In terms of these grazing leases, one, is there any way to extract from some of these lands? Because they're quite a bit more sparse, there's a lot less rain out there. Is there any way to extract at all besides maybe tourism where it can make sense? And two, are these leases a good way to do it? Or I'm assuming I know the answer to this, would it be better to like drill for oil or, you know, mine for minerals? You know, what what is is there a good way to extract from these lands and is leasing the way to do it? Hal Herring (18:31.6) Okay, so un until recently, well, I've been a big supporter of Taylor Grazing Act and grazing in the West. It's funny because because it's extractive, but but it's good it's I believe that the ecological problems can be that that can be worked out by the Bureau of Land Management and range conservationists and whatnot. I'm a supporter of grazing. own public lands. And but as long as it's regulated by an impartial, you know, the federal government, like the range conservationists, he can't be like best buddies with the rancher and go like, well, we we'll just leave all the cows out there during the drought. But I believe that and and I'm I'm kind of kicked out of the Nicolas Lirio (19:16.829) Hmm. Hal Herring (19:22.682) the groovier part of the environmentalist movement with this, right? Because I also believe that even in very arid places, you could support a few cows so that you'd have a local supply of beef. Now, I can't send my daughter to college on the money I make off of the cows in southern Idaho, say. Could you hold on just a second? Kent Boucher (19:38.125) Mm. Kent Boucher (19:44.631) Right. Yep, no problem. I'm gonna go lock the door, Nick, because I don't want a customer to walk in. Hal Herring (20:03.324) That was the fax machine for the Augusta sewer and water. Nicolas Lirio (20:06.695) That is the wildest thing I've ever heard you say is that you use a fax machine. okay, okay, okay. Hal Herring (20:11.516) No, I don't, but the Augusta Sewer and Water does, yeah. No, it was the Augusta sewer and water fax machine. Smoke. but so I I think that I don't think that we've done I think that the grazing has a place for sure. Kent Boucher (20:18.807) Was that your internet now? Kent Boucher (20:23.587) that's awesome. Hal Herring (20:36.9) And in eastern Montana, that country is was was bison country. So a lot of it has evolved with with grazing, right? Now you can't hit it as hard as you can hit Iowa. You you know, you're not gonna put as many cows out there as you are in the tall grass of Kansas. Kent Boucher (20:37.068) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (20:37.267) Hmm. Kent Boucher (20:47.532) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (20:47.869) Yeah. Kent Boucher (20:52.992) Right, yeah. Kent Boucher (20:59.17) Yeah. Hal Herring (20:59.6) But people know that. And and the ranchers, the ranchers know that too. There's there are good stewards for sure. I think it's dude, I can't I can't believe that they've made this move on the American Prairie to take these permits because another administration, another bunch of people could gang up and take and and do they've woken a sleeping dog, man. Kent Boucher (21:17.004) Yeah. Kent Boucher (21:27.915) Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, who to me the the whole thing seems petty and and is run and is motivated by the things that so there's a new phrase that that I'm I'm trying to use more often. It's it's technically right, practically wrong. So so and I feel that this administration is fueled by that and and the and the Nicolas Lirio (21:28.211) Hmm. Hal Herring (21:49.563) Yeah. Kent Boucher (21:56.31) Folks worshiping this administration are fueled by being technically right and practically wrong. And you know, just a quick example would be it's my son's birthday today, and he is my oldest child. And let's say one of his birthday presents that he just opened up this morning, and one of his younger sisters. I actually just got him a a set of it his first set of Vortex Binos. He asked for some binoculars for his birthday. So they they make a great kid sized binocular, the the bantams. And you just turn nine and it's a good size for him. It right, yeah. Love that company. Good American company up in the great state of Wisconsin. but let's say he's got his new binoculars and one of his younger sisters Hal Herring (22:27.26) Nice. Nicolas Lirio (22:34.619) Not sponsored, but happy to be. Hal Herring (22:36.602) Yeah. Me too. Yep. Kent Boucher (22:48.383) Is playing with them and they're he you know, he wasn't playing with them at the time or or using them. And they're looking through and he walks up and yanks them out of her hands and says, Hey, this is mine. He's technically right. They are his. He just got this morning and it's even his birthday today. But he is practically wrong by by his his practice is wrong by how he got him back, right? And yeah, it is. Nicolas Lirio (23:13.435) Is today Jonas's birthday? I thought it was in June. Brother, that's not good. Okay, sorry. yeah. Kent Boucher (23:17.889) No, it's today. Yeah. Well, it's almost June. But but which reminds us Judd's fortieth is coming up real quick, buddy, less than a week. But thanks. But I I view this whole grazing this grazing permit deal with American Prairie as being you know, maybe they're technically right, they're saying that these are not Hal Herring (23:17.903) Mm-hmm. Nicolas Lirio (23:26.919) Yeah, the big four man, he's half your age. Kent Boucher (23:47.296) And and even still, I think they still qualify based on what how how American Prairie treats these bison, but they're saying they're not livestock. They're saying they're they're releasing wild animals that Hal Herring (23:55.916) yeah. Well that's not they've already declared him as livestock back in the day here in Montana, uniquely. Yes. And y here's the thing. When your son when your son rips those binoculars from his sister, not only has he done something petty and rude that was unnecessary, but he just lost an ally. And that's what I think is happening right here. I've Kent Boucher (24:02.058) Right. Kent Boucher (24:05.621) And they treat like livestock. It's it's just an alternative but Kent Boucher (24:20.45) Right. Yes. Yep. Hal Herring (24:27.732) I find this to be this is like somebody who is playing a game who f you know in Sun Tzu in the Art of War he says the opponent also has a vote always. Remember, and so why would you create opponents? I've heard more people talking about the Taylor Grayson Act and the dollar thirty-five to dollar sixty-six AUM price on public land leasing. Kent Boucher (24:40.461) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kent Boucher (24:56.266) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Hal Herring (24:56.494) then I have animal unit month. That's the amount of forage eaten by a cow calf parent a month. This is the lowest grazing rate in the world. Yep. And and so whether that's right or wrong, I don't think it's wrong. Because I don't think that I don't think it's wrong for the government to for our taxpayers to subsidize in some way the production of food Nicolas Lirio (24:56.509) What is A U Kent Boucher (25:05.768) A dollar sixty six. Wow. Hal Herring (25:23.12) For the United States, as long as it's not an ecological disaster, right? I don't think it's wrong. I don't think it's necessarily wrong, but these entitlements can go wrong. but but I have heard more people talking about the low AUM price, dude, in my than in my entire life. Like, if you were the beneficiary of that and you were using that as the base for the value of your home property, your deeded land. Kent Boucher (25:26.571) Yeah. Yeah. Hal Herring (25:51.451) Do I want somebody in New Jersey and Tallahassee questioning what's going on in Phillips County, Montana on the public land? I can't, I can't believe they've done this. I I sat there and was like, whoa man, who who and I and I want to know who there's some really fine ranching families out there. Kent Boucher (26:02.157) Hm, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kent Boucher (26:18.813) yeah. Yeah. Hal Herring (26:19.32) And I doubt serio dig this, I doubt seriously that they are supporters of this action. Here's another thing. The AP, I just they are leasing to local ranchers their o their grass on their deeded yeah, an thousands of AUMs. Nicolas Lirio (26:19.837) I'm sure. Kent Boucher (26:25.505) Yeah. Yeah. I Nicolas Lirio (26:25.747) Hm. Kent Boucher (26:37.279) On the stuff they own. They're they're allowing they're allowing cattle to Wow. Wow. Wow. Hal Herring (26:45.028) And that that little story didn't get told when the governor decided he supported this. I I don't understand this, I gotta tell you. Kent Boucher (26:52.471) Who's who's going to I mean who so with these permits taken away, I don't I don't assume that there will be no grazing now on those acres and they're just gonna be they're gonna be left, you know, fallow and and untouched. Who's who stands to get those permits then? Hal Herring (27:06.586) No, absolutely not. I don't know. And and it'll be interesting to know who steps up to try to take them over or will AP try to run beef on Will AP I don't I don't know if you can sublease either. Kent Boucher (27:21.709) Mm-hmm. Nicolas Lirio (27:24.861) What was this so so what was this motivated by? Was this just a small story that got out of hand and so the the g the governor needed to do some PR? Or what what what actually happened? Hal Herring (27:37.083) Well, what has happened was that people ha the American Prairie is funded by like donors from all over. They're small donors too, but there's also very wealthy donors. Yeah. Yeah. So they have been buying ranches in eastern Montana and then prioritizing conservation on prair prairie work and native plants and Nicolas Lirio (27:48.24) I've I I've seen the vice president list. It it's it's big. Kent Boucher (28:03.281) yeah. Yeah, it's been it's been one of the greatest prairie conservation success stories that I've ever heard of. Hal Herring (28:14.34) Right, and the short grass short grass parry for sure. Nicolas Lirio (28:14.577) Yeah, 'cause it didn't require it didn't require the government stepping in and making a national park. And short of national parks, it's probably the gr you know Kent Boucher (28:17.047) Yeah. Kent Boucher (28:22.751) And yet it's and yet it's open to the public. Hal Herring (28:25.788) It is. And and the opponents of the AP are always going, well, they could close it at any time. And I was like, well, like before this, so I let me give you a personal anecdote. I was on the when I my kids were little, we were fishing, catfishing down on the mouth of the Judith River and on the Missouri River. And there came this huge storm, just like like slate wiper kind of thunderstorm. And we took shelter in this old building. Kent Boucher (28:32.493) Ha ha Hal Herring (28:53.114) And this guy comes driving down there in a pickup through the storm. I don't know how he saw us in there. And he says, Man, I'm the manager here and y'all gotta get out. And I said, Get out, like these two little kids, like out in this storm. And he said, Yes, it hurts me. I I don't, I wouldn't do this, but but nobody is allowed on this private here. That's the PN Ranch. And I we we got I got the four year old and a seven year old or whatever and we we treated it as an adventure and we gathered up Yeah when but the manager had no call in it. He said, I feel bad about this. And so we took off hiking back across the Missouri on got on the bridge and went back to our camp. And that PN Ranch is now open to the public. All of that along the Missouri because the A American Prairie Kent Boucher (29:25.783) Yeah. Yeah, technically right and practically wrong. Nicolas Lirio (29:41.299) Mm. Kent Boucher (29:48.749) Yeah. Yeah, what a loss for the public, right? Hal Herring (29:49.233) bought the deeded part of that, the the deeded land. And so Yeah, right. And and you can walk to the mouth of the Judith, which is a very historical, you know, place of where the wood ha the the steamship stop for wood and blackfeet the blackfeeted run that, you know, whew. Kent Boucher (29:59.694) Yeah. Kent Boucher (30:04.951) Yeah. Well it was it was na was it was it named by Lewis or named by Clark after like his sister in law or something? Yeah. Yeah. Hal Herring (30:12.046) Right, one of right, for sure. The Judith. And and you go up the Judith, you know, and you it's it's it's a very historical place. Not only not only for like some European history, but the since the ice age, like people have been walking that Missouri River corridor, you know, and I mean it just it there is it's a blood soaked ground of lots of history, you know, and and so you can go there now and walk around and Kent Boucher (30:28.183) Hmm. Sure, yeah. Hal Herring (30:42.018) I just like I don't know man. I I don't I'm I just I'm baffled by this situation we're in. Kent Boucher (30:49.121) Yeah, the the reasonings I've been I've been reading is and what I've heard from other people that are close c much closer to what goes on out west than what we are is this idea of of loss of ranching culture, loss of you know the CRP faces a similar criticism, right, from big egg. Now that's good farmland that somebody could be Hal Herring (31:12.411) Yes. Kent Boucher (31:17.377) Could be using and and and it right, yeah. Yep, yep, yep. And I I mean we just have such a demand for corn and soybeans, it's it's really just we need every last acre. We can't eventu invent enough uses. But Hal Herring (31:19.736) As long as I got my federal crop insurance. Hal Herring (31:29.23) Right. So the the enemy of ranching culture is the is the big four beef processors who set the price where when I'm working super arid land and I mean I I just again this culture there in that McCone Phillips Valley County, Montana, I th it's really cool. Like like these are people who make it Kent Boucher (31:49.964) Yeah. Hal Herring (31:55.597) in the toughest place. Like it's like the margin, right? I mean by the time you get over to North Dakota, it starts raining a little ge again, right? And we and when you get down to Yellowstone, you're at really low elevation. So like things can go there. You can have a big garden there. In on the Yellowstone, right? But but when when you're making it in like mont Malta, Montana South, you you are really gotta be on your game. Kent Boucher (32:03.745) Yeah. Kent Boucher (32:11.317) Yeah. Yep. Kent Boucher (32:23.191) Hmm. Hal Herring (32:23.512) And so that culture is really cool. But the American Prairie is not not killing that culture. Those ranches are for sale because they weren't making their their margins are tight. Kent Boucher (32:27.009) Yeah. Yeah. Kent Boucher (32:31.821) Right. Kent Boucher (32:36.033) Right. Yeah, it it so so to me it seems like the whole controversy is fueled by negative human emotion and and it's what I mean and I'm not saying that I'm above this myself. When I'm upset, I want a lightning rod. I want I want someone to blame. especially if it's not clear whose fault it is. And and to me it seems like it's a decision that was that was made Nicolas Lirio (32:36.316) Hmm. Kent Boucher (33:06.017) to be a favor to friends who were complaining about something and they chose American Prairie to be their target. And I and the reason I'm I'm belaboring this point is because I think when whether it's a country, whether it's a state, whether it's a a county or even your own household, when you make when you you pass judge hand judgments down and and regulate based on someone's bad feelings. Your s your very foundation for what you're decision making is ugliness. And what can you expect to be the final outcome like like you're saying? You I mean, do people really think that, wow, we gotta pulled a big win over here on American Prairie? Well, I mean, and I I don't fr we we interviewed Sean Garrety, the guy who basically got American Prairie started. Not that he did it alone, but I mean he he dur Hal Herring (33:58.171) Yeah. Hal Herring (34:02.862) No, but I know I know Sean. He's he's been a visitor here at my home. Yeah. Kent Boucher (34:04.791) He he that is he seemed like such an incredible guy. And I've heard him interviewed other times. And you can see it through the culture when I hear other people from American Prairie, especially Allison Fox, the the new CEO, it is a turn the other cheek type of culture that they have around there. And so I don't expect the you know, the retribution that I think you're right in saying is is coming at some point. I don't expect that to come from American Prairie because I don't gather that that's their culture there. But it will come from somewhere. And then we'll be back well as if we don't have enough partisan cyclones of death that are afflicting our country right now. Now grazing on public land gets to become another one. I mean Hal Herring (34:52.229) Another one and Nicolas Lirio (34:52.409) Ken, I'm not following ya. What do you mean by there will be retribution come from where against what? I'm not I'm not sure what you're talking. Kent Boucher (34:57.901) Sure. So so if if if the people who wanted the the the the parties that wanted the grazing permits pulled from American Prairie because they didn't like that they had them, now you open you start the precedent of if I know the right the right guy and he's got the right levers to pull and I'm upset at let's say the the the whatever the the main organization that these people would be associated these parties would be associated with. I don't like them. Now my buddy's in power and guess what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna say, maybe it's not the exact same attack, but it's a new one, right? I want those I want those lease rates 10x. Yeah. I want way up and now it's Hal Herring (35:43.62) Quadrupled. Yeah, 10x. I wanna I want them on a par. Yeah, I want them on a par with the state. I'm tired of paying taxes to do this. That's what they're gonna say. Kent Boucher (35:49.044) And and yes, right, and and so it's just this tit for tat battle that has now begun. And nobody wins, it nobody wins in that. Hal Herring (35:57.159) Can I so let me jump in. I I what concerned me about this first, I happen to be a supporter of the American Prairie, and I have a reason for that. It's that in a world where the human populations are soaring. Like United States is twice as many people as when I was born. And like there's less prairie than there's ever been before because of agriculture and all that stuff. They're doing something that I think is very important, but that's just me. That's my pr opinion. Right. I I I like that I like yeah. I Kent Boucher (36:18.285) Mm-hmm. Kent Boucher (36:22.093) Right. Kent Boucher (36:26.646) Yeah. Right. Yeah, and I'm biased. I and I'm biased, I'll say it right now. I'm biased on in favor of American Prairie. There's no doubt about Hal Herring (36:35.182) And I've and it they have a lot of land enlisted in enlisted in the block management program, which means that public like myself can go hunting there. And that was not true but at all when those ranches were in other hands. So I have I have all these reasons for being biased, right? however, however, I have an ideology as well. And and I am while I support a strong central federal government. Kent Boucher (36:43.169) Yep. Yep. Kent Boucher (36:48.898) Right. Yeah, yeah. Hal Herring (37:03.994) Because I know the history of FDR and Teddy Roosevelt and and what the government does, Eisenhower, the government accomplishes, the Clean Water Act. I I I'm supporter of the federal government. However, I am a grave skeptic about government power. And and that's why we have a Congress and a balance of of powers. And this is a weaponization of the government's power against a single group. Kent Boucher (37:12.801) Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yep. Kent Boucher (37:23.819) Right. Yep. Hal Herring (37:33.233) That somebody simply didn't like. And dude, that is that is the the central point here for me. It would I wouldn't care if I if if it wasn't AP of American Prairie, if it was somebody else that they had gone to and said, We're gonna take we're gonna take your grazing permits. I don't care if that was my worst enemy. I would not celebrate that. Kent Boucher (37:53.003) Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Hal Herring (37:58.905) No way, man. That's the weaponization of of government power against a a target. You can't do that. Kent Boucher (38:05.451) Yeah. Against a private entity, yeah. Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (38:06.395) Yeah. Man how you're speaking my language. the the there's this sorry. I so well the people listening know this story, but there's a building here in town that I hate, and I was joking with the mayor, obviously joking. I was like, we should just it's got it Well, it's it's like a foreign entity owns it on the East Coast. Hal Herring (38:10.084) Yeah. Well we we yeah. No, that's it. Go ahead. Hal Herring (38:23.194) Yeah. Kent Boucher (38:25.803) Whatever. You've been writing him you've been writing him letters every day, Nick. You've been Hal Herring (38:28.902) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (38:34.747) And literally what they do is they inflated the value on their books and they can borrow against it to do real estate on the East Coast, but it's on one of our main streets. It's this giant building with a green roof. And I was like, we should just 10x the taxes with giant buildings with green roofs, because it's the only one in Oxa, you know. And and I'm like, Yeah, but if I I I I said that as a joke. If the government ever did that even again, I would move out of that town right away. Cause it's like, this city's run by an oligarchy. Hal Herring (38:51.92) Yeah Yes Kent Boucher (38:52.446) Yeah. Hal Herring (39:00.72) Yeah. Kent Boucher (39:00.791) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (39:03.355) And if I'm not in the picture that I don't want any part of it. but Kent Boucher (39:05.111) Yeah. Hal Herring (39:05.242) Right. And I don't know what your house looks like, but that would be they'd be like dropping down like uh-huh, house with a steel roof. That's why we don't do that. Nicolas Lirio (39:11.96) Yeah yeah Kent Boucher (39:13.769) Yep. Yeah. And they have and they have way more money they have way more lobbying dollars. You know what I mean? That that company. They they companies like that don't lose. You know what I mean? They might take they might they might lose a battle, but they win the war. And and that's what this that's what this kicked off. Nicolas Lirio (39:17.714) Yeah. Hal Herring (39:20.796) You're right. Nicolas Lirio (39:21.482) yeah. Nicolas Lirio (39:25.809) Yeah. Hal Herring (39:29.318) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (39:30.258) But I wanna I wanna half change the subject, just public land in general, right? The last year we've been talking on the podcast, you've been talking about it nonstop, and I'm grateful for that. A lot of the information I get about public land, what's happening is from you. you know, our friends, Meat Eater, Mark Kenyon, Ryan Callahan, I they've been blasting from the rooftops. We were we tried to inform our listeners as much as we could about what was going on with the boundary waters. And there is this quote unquote attack on public land. Now I don't think that it's all this like, cushy gushy, they're just trying their best over there. But I also don't think that the legislators are thinking, we just want to rip this from the gov the public's we don't want them being on it. We just want to hold this for ourselves. I don't think that's what they're thinking. They're probably thinking money. But could you walk us through that and and and what actually is going on? What's the threat? How is that different from traditionally how the government has treated public lands. Cause I've never I've never seen anything like it, you know, in in terms of what's going on. And now to be fair, public lands is a weird conversation in Iowa and probably Illinois as well. Not as much in Minnesota 'cause they've got but we don't have any we don't have any public lands. So it's just a weird concept. It's like it's like talking about salmon in the river. We're like, well that sounds cool over there, but we don't have that, you know? And so yeah, what could you walk us through that? Hal Herring (40:46.055) Yeah. Hal Herring (40:54.618) I understood, yeah. Elk hunting in Alabama doesn't. Yeah, so what's happened so I'm finishing a six year project. I'm I'm on the Kent Boucher (40:57.867) Yeah. Hal Herring (41:07.714) almost on the last chapter right now and and that's it's for Patagonia Publishing and it's called Journeys on America's Public Lands. And so in that six years I was drawing on my whole life since I moved out west and and in Alabama where I was at the Bankhead National Forest, the Talladega National Forest, the Connecticut National Forest, but I never knew why we had right? and so I've spent I kind of spent my life around this in the last fifteen years. And it's a good time to have this knowledge, right? Because because they're under threat as never before. As all the conservation groups will say. And they're and they're not kidding. That's true. So Kent Boucher (41:42.689) Yeah, yeah, that's true. Hal Herring (41:49.305) What's happened is there's six hundred and forty million acres of public lands in the United States. And that's wildlife refuge, national forest. National Forest is about 191, 193 million acres. BLM runs 240 million acres, manages. Now those are lands owned by the American people, managed in trust by the federal government, federal agencies. And that dates back to 1891 with the first Forest Reserve Act. Kent Boucher (42:12.141) Mm-hmm. Hal Herring (42:17.012) which p President Harrison signed, and that was because of rampant deforestation. And they were worried about the First Forest Reserve Act actually was a buffer around Yellowstone National Park. If you know the history, seven eighteen seventy two was Yellowstone National Park. And then they realized that unless they had what became the Shoshone National Forest in Wyoming, that they wouldn't be able to save the game, the wild the wildlife. Kent Boucher (42:35.169) Mm-hmm. Kent Boucher (42:43.317) Sure. Hal Herring (42:44.226) And so that became the Yellowstone Timber Reserve in eighteen ninety one. That was to buffer the national park. and Kent Boucher (42:48.012) Okay. Kent Boucher (42:51.49) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (42:52.275) Wait, so BLM Ground is in a trust, like a legal trust, owned by everyone who's an American citizen. And I did not know that. Hal Herring (42:56.972) It it is. It's own owned by the American people, right? And and managed in trust by the federal government. So so here's the thing. So BLM lands a little different. So the federal the the Forest Service lands, if you look at the if you look at the history, so One of the things they did was they picked out watersheds and it's funny because the anti-public lands universe is headquartered in Salt Lake City. It's in in in Utah. They they they're the ones Mike Senator Mike Lee is the proponent of selling off all the public lands, you know, and and but Kent Boucher (43:34.847) Right. Yeah. Hal Herring (43:38.889) Utah was one of the first places to embrace the concept of the National Forest because it's a very arid place, right? And they depend on snowpack and snow melt for irrigation. And and when those mountain lands were in just nobody's hands, people ran armies of sheep on them. They cut down as much timber as they possibly could because who's going to tell you to quit, right? Kent Boucher (43:44.245) Mm. Kent Boucher (43:52.671) Okay, yeah. Kent Boucher (44:05.857) Yeah. Right. Hal Herring (44:08.45) And they were having these huge erosion flood events where there's nothing to hold the dirt, and the dirt pours down into the valleys and stops up the irrigation. I'm I'm oversimplifying it, but and then people were setting fire to them to try to get better green up, right? So so they were burning them off and they were just they just weren't holding snow. It was. And and they and and an ecological disaster area in Kent Boucher (44:25.17) okay, yeah. Just an ecological disaster area. Hal Herring (44:36.684) why in Alabama or Mississippi where it actually rains is not the same as not having a snowpack in a place that gets eleven inches of rain a year. Right? There's no garden if the snow doesn't melt on time. Kent Boucher (44:40.983) So. Kent Boucher (44:45.259) Right. Yeah. Kent Boucher (44:52.993) Yeah yeah, I I we have a good friend here on the podcast and he pointed out that a lot of the places people seek to live, you can only you can only live there because of fossil fuels. And and the places that in the especially in the West where that have ig that have held people prior to foss you know, other than maybe coal on on steam engines, the places that largely housed people before Hal Herring (45:05.243) Yeah. Kent Boucher (45:23.339) you know, oil was around is because they were they had, you know, that that little ecological advantage. And to remove that, your your margin of being able to survive there is so small that something like that now makes a whole area inha uninhabitable. Hal Herring (45:33.211) Yep. Hal Herring (45:38.609) Yeah. Hal Herring (45:43.609) uninhabitable. And you know, that's that we were talking before you started recording about my t my town. My well and fifty-two other wells went dry here last summer. And it was so hard, right? It was just so tough. We we everybody drilled new wells a little deeper, a little deeper, a little bigger. but you would you would not have this town if that continues. And if you look at it, prior to about 18 Kent Boucher (45:48.971) Mm-hmm. Yep. Kent Boucher (45:53.623) That's so crazy. Kent Boucher (46:03.873) Kent Boucher (46:07.51) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (46:07.731) Hm. Hal Herring (46:12.994) 90. It was only the black feet here. And when the creek went dry, they rolled up the teepee and got behind the horse and headed for the Marias River. Right? So most of the West can be occupied nomadically forever. Like you could really, like you, there would be no problem with coming here, hunting buffalo or catching some cows. Kent Boucher (46:20.651) Yeah. Yep. Yep. Kent Boucher (46:30.423) Yeah. Kent Boucher (46:33.889) Yeah. Hal Herring (46:40.048) Go when the creek gets too low, you roll up and book, right? That's how it was done for 10,000 years. the same way if we go back to Utah, same way with Utah, the Utes, you know, Southern Pie Utes, all those people, they didn't they didn't just hang around when it didn't rain. They moved, they left. And Kent Boucher (46:43.35) Yeah. Kent Boucher (46:47.404) Right. Kent Boucher (46:58.581) Right, yeah, they moved, yeah. That's a great point. Hal Herring (47:01.614) They were just militarily strong enough to to go places where they were say bison or something, right, and not be wiped out by the people who lived who who used that land. So they they kept a they kept another a warrior culture, but it wasn't the only thing they did. And but they they were able to it was all nomadic. And and if I'm I'm reading Peter Stark's I just interviewed Peter Stark about the Coronado expedition. Kent Boucher (47:17.645) Right. Hal Herring (47:28.548) And they they ran into the l the Pueblo people in New Mexico. They thought they were gonna get seven cities of gold. And the Pueblo people were like, Well, we don't really have any gold, but they had lived in that arid environment for thousands of years and they but they're incredibly adapted. Like it was super complicated what how they lived there. Kent Boucher (47:35.031) Hmm. Kent Boucher (47:42.125) Yeah. Kent Boucher (47:49.079) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (47:49.275) Hmm. Hal Herring (47:50.747) So if you go back to this, for the national forests were set aside specifically for watershed protection. And that was to keep the goo goose laying the golden eggs of snowpack that was shaded by trees and in grass so that it didn't just run off with the dirt and the mud. Kent Boucher (47:58.188) Hmm. Yeah. Kent Boucher (48:04.94) Yeah. Kent Boucher (48:11.277) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (48:11.591) Hm. Hal Herring (48:11.994) And then so in in so to come back east in nineteen eleven they passed the Weeks Act of nineteen eleven. And Weeks was a guy from New Hampshire who had witnessed, I think it was five hundred and fifty-four billion l board feet of lumber taken off. And at and at that time, so they it was all free, right? So they just slicked it off and left. Kent Boucher (48:31.329) Yeah. Yeah. That's crazy. Hal Herring (48:39.94) And they left a slash behind, which then caught fire in a way that a forest never would catch fire there, and it burned the dirt off. And and one of the so it wasn't coming back. And one of the things that would happen then, people use grist mills a lot still, even in the eighteen eighties and nineties. And and the erosion would just fill up those reservoirs that ran the grist mills. So in one day you're out of business. You don't have a steam shovel, you don't have a fossil fuel shovel. So you're out of business. Nicolas Lirio (48:47.291) Mm. Kent Boucher (48:47.351) Hmm. Yeah. Kent Boucher (49:01.952) man. Kent Boucher (49:06.477) Right. Yeah. Hal Herring (49:10.076) and so they had such erosion events that steamships were running aground in the Hudson River on the eroded s topsoil from like the Adirondacks. Kent Boucher (49:21.153) That is crazy. Yeah, my Hal Herring (49:23.268) And people are going, Yeah, we're going we're gonna do something. Kent Boucher (49:26.113) Yeah, my my in laws are from New Hampshire and they when I first went there the first time, they had said at one time well so today I believe New Hampshire's roughly ninety percent or maybe even ninety five percent forested and at one time it had been deforested to the point to where it was either five or ten percent forested, ninety or ninety five percent clear cut farming. Yep. Hal Herring (49:53.991) Slicked off. Yeah, slicked off and and and they they farmed the it was the same old thing of of conserve the best, farm the rest, right? And I mean farm the best, conserve the rest. So yeah. Yeah. And that was the ero the erosion problem there once once you took that, once you slicked off that timber, Kent Boucher (49:55.904) Yep. Kent Boucher (50:01.985) Yeah. Yeah, you can still see all the stone walls everywhere through the timber where their their fields were. I mean hundreds of years old, these stone walls. Nicolas Lirio (50:09.159) Hmm. Kent Boucher (50:17.613) Mm-hmm. Hal Herring (50:17.702) So that soil is forest soil versus like farming soil, which is down in the bottom, right? and so so John Weeks was from New Hampshire. And he had moved to Boston and made a he was a really, really brilliant guy. He had made a fortune as a in banking or something, but he he loved New Hampshire and he came back to New Hampshire and looked at that deforestation and the and the erosion problems. Kent Boucher (50:23.787) Yeah, yeah. Kent Boucher (50:36.512) Okay, yeah. Hal Herring (50:44.494) And so he sponsored the Weeks Act of nineteen eleven. And that was to allow them to do in the East what Teddy Roosevelt and them had been doing in the West, which was conserve the high elevation snowpack country, which was the mountains, which, by the way, was not claimed because you can't homestead it. You can't live there. So this was land that had remained in the federal domain through all the homestead acts, right? Kent Boucher (50:56.673) Yeah. Yeah. Kent Boucher (51:07.362) Hmm. Wow. Yeah. Hal Herring (51:11.172) The same thing with all the BLM land. It was unclaimed land. That's why it's managed by the BLM. If you could live on it and make a good living, it was claimed under the Homestead Act. Did that make sense? Like that's why Iowa doesn't have any. And Kent Boucher (51:23.861) Right. Yep. Yep. Right. Yeah. It was all good. Nicolas Lirio (51:29.509) Yeah, yeah. So so you were saying that so Mike Lee went after Utah, but Utah has this rich history of jumping in on the forested area, as being publicly owned ground and in the best interest of the people. so what happened there? with Hal Herring (51:43.846) So Hal Herring (51:47.913) so what happened there was they had one is in in is to understand this, it's it's wonderful to understand American history because the Latter-day Saints has a direct conflict with the federal government from 1838, where Jay Joseph Smith was actually assassinated, right, in Carthage, Illinois. And then they had to make the big treat to the West to to for religious freedom. Kent Boucher (52:09.643) Yeah, yep. Hal Herring (52:15.438) Okay. So in eighteen fifty nine they had made the trek west and they had probably been you I mean their their tenacity is absolutely unquestioned. Those pioneers with the hand carts c you know, settling settling the Great Salt Lake Valley and everywhere. I mean it is an incredible story. So they actually went to went to war again with the US government in eighteen fifty nine. Kent Boucher (52:27.403) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Hal Herring (52:41.272) And that was President Buchanan. And they just said these this state of they called it the state of Deseret. And it was huge. It went from Oregon all the way down to northern Arizona. And they said, Well, this is ours. We settled it, and this is ours. And and we want to make a deal with the, you know, the government stuff. The government said no. Kent Boucher (52:48.268) Mm-hmm. Kent Boucher (52:52.939) Wow. Hal Herring (53:02.966) And and so long story short, they sent troops to Utah to do what's called the Utah War. And the the Mormons who had the Nauvoo Legion and or in Porter Rockwell, they had they had their own army. And and they did very, very well. They also made this exodus that I don't I don't think people appreciate enough, to the fortress kind of of southern Utah, where the soldiers couldn't get at if they fought. Kent Boucher (53:18.925) Right. Nicolas Lirio (53:19.101) Wow. Hal Herring (53:31.684) And then, I mean, I'm from Alabama, you know, we caused the Civil War, which caused p caused the troops to have to come back from from Utah. And nobody wanted that fight either, by the way, with with the with the Latter day Saints. Kent Boucher (53:37.058) Yeah. Kent Boucher (53:40.545) Yeah. Kent Boucher (53:44.299) Yeah. That is so interesting. I've never I never knew of that. I knew that was a contentious deal and I knew about the Mountain Meadows massacre and the the Sure and Nicolas Lirio (53:48.891) Yeah. Hal Herring (53:53.828) Yeah, and that was leading up to it. And and Nicolas Lirio (53:56.616) I've got a I've got a good friend who he has a daughter. We'll just keep it as she is highly accomplished and has great accolades from and post college, moved out there and can't get a job, and she told her dad, Well, I think it's because I'm not a Mormon. And he's like, How would they even know? That's illegal to bring up and she's like Hal Herring (54:17.167) A gentile. Nicolas Lirio (54:22.085) It has casually come up in every single interview of it, d where do you go to church? You know, just like a good old and and and I mean, when I say decorated, she's decorated. You know, and there's there's no job she's not qualified to do basically in the in her industry. And so and she literally was like, I think I have to move because I am not part I mean, it is it is a stronghold. And I I'm not saying that that the case for everything, but they they they're tight knit. They are tight Hal Herring (54:25.788) Right. Kent Boucher (54:27.576) ho. Hal Herring (54:32.689) Yeah. Kent Boucher (54:35.532) Yeah. Hal Herring (54:37.211) Yeah. Hal Herring (54:41.348) Wow. Yeah, stronghold. Yep. Well and and so that's one so the the history of their their intact, they're they're you know politically they called it a teo democracy, right? A theo democracy. And Kent Boucher (54:58.421) Mm-hmm. Hal Herring (55:01.324) So by the way, nobody wanted that Utah War. There in fact, there was a a guy, I think it was a Prussian general that was in the U.S. car cavalry, and he like jumped ship and and immediately became a latter-day saint. He was like, This is great. and so nobody wanted that fight. So, and it's lucky that we didn't have to do nobody had to do that, right? So they pulled the troops back. Right. But Kent Boucher (55:10.615) Yeah. Really? Ha ha ha. Kent Boucher (55:23.403) Yeah. Yeah. That it's so nothing but ugliness in that those situations. Hal Herring (55:28.348) For them, that conflict with the federal government has never really ended. And and they and so they don't like it. What precipitated that conflict was people, Gentiles that moved there to run the new territory of Utah, right? And they were like, We're not listening to you. You're not from here, you didn't settle this, you know. Nicolas Lirio (55:33.491) Hmm. Kent Boucher (55:47.234) Yeah. Kent Boucher (55:52.587) Right. Hal Herring (55:53.583) And so that conflict has its roots really early. And when the BLM tells somebody that they can't run cows in the desert outside of, say, Escalant, Utah, that conflict rises back up. Kent Boucher (56:07.095) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Nicolas Lirio (56:12.507) Interesting. So so you think that that Mike Lee's kind of it it was fueled by agenda, for whatever reason, the agenda of the Latter day Saints? Hal Herring (56:12.584) when Hal Herring (56:23.074) Not really. Nowadays it's fueled by money. And about forty percent of the Utah legislature is involved in the real estate business in some way. And so the legislature, yeah, well they want that they want that land, right? They they want to develop, even though they don't really have the water resources for it. They want the option to build out Saint George out onto what's now BLM. Nicolas Lirio (56:24.815) okay. okay. Nicolas Lirio (56:36.723) Hm. That seems unbiased. Kent Boucher (56:39.373) Yeah. Kent Boucher (56:53.173) Hm. Yeah. Hal Herring (56:53.56) And they and they don't they can't believe that the federal government would tell them that they can't build a new housing development east of Saint George. And and and down inside this is the old federal conflict. Nicolas Lirio (57:03.911) Hmm. Interesting. Kent Boucher (57:04.609) Yeah. Kent Boucher (57:10.347) Yeah. Yeah. Between yeah. Yep. Nicolas Lirio (57:13.732) Interesting. So Hal Herring (57:13.818) With your telling us what to do. Kent Boucher (57:16.109) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (57:16.965) Okay, so it's not about I thought you were gonna bring bring up Trump's like drill baby drill or this whole like AI thing with mining data, but you're saying it is just like a two centuries old feud between two people groups. Hal Herring (57:31.15) It's rooted in that. You know, and nowadays I think that people in Utah too appreciate the public lands. And that I think Senator Mike Lee is in a distinct minority in wanting to privatize public lands in Utah. I really d I really do. Nicolas Lirio (57:33.03) Interesting. Kent Boucher (57:42.081) Hm. Nicolas Lirio (57:53.32) Yeah, but public public people can't make politicians rich. Only special interest groups can make rich, you know? So okay, well then what about man, just getting kind of political here, but but Bergum. Doug Bergum and the things that he's brought up and and he's talked about the asset book of the United States being trillions of dollars you know, and and and these just quantifying the public lands and and that kind of language. And he Kent Boucher (57:53.495) Yeah. Hal Herring (58:00.093) Correct. Nicolas Lirio (58:21.115) My understanding is most of what he's gone after is less about selling and more about leasing out what we currently have for mining or extraction. You know, we we're talking about. What what have you seen with w with him and and what he's been pushing and these leases that he's been talking about? Hal Herring (58:27.332) Right. Yeah. Hal Herring (58:37.296) Well, most of the oil and gas resources have long been leased. Like like like they're already under lease. So an explosion of leases is is kind of hyperbole. now the mining leases, when they're talking about my re like repealing the national monument status of Bears Ears or Grand Staircase Escalante, that would be a big deal. Nicolas Lirio (59:04.423) Yeah, yeah. Hal Herring (59:04.676) Because there's coal in the in the Grand Staircase, Escalante National Monument. And so that would be a huge deal. What I see with Doug Bergam is he came out of North North Dakota and did a pretty good job managing the Backen oil field c you know, boom. So he's an he he know what he knows is oil and gas. What he knows is extractive industry. Kent Boucher (59:22.38) Mm. Nicolas Lirio (59:24.061) Yeah. Kent Boucher (59:29.655) Yeah. Hal Herring (59:30.934) And people will get mad at me for saying this, but like under Clinton, he had one of my favorite Secretary of Interiors, Bruce Babbitt. And Bruce Babbitt was the Babbitt ranches out of Arizona. And he was also like really conservation-minded. So he did a lot of things that extractive industry didn't like. Including including a lot of national monument declarations and and so Kent Boucher (59:46.477) Mm-hmm. Kent Boucher (59:51.469) Sure. Hal Herring (59:58.609) Doug Bergum is the opposite extreme. And Secretary Watt under Ronald Reagan was the opposite extreme. Secretary Gail Norton under George Bush 43 was the opposite extreme. They didn't they didn't prioritize conservation at all. And so Kent Boucher (01:00:02.039) Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:00:11.373) Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:00:19.01) Yeah. Hal Herring (01:00:21.038) And this is kind of a Republican issue, I guess. The Republicans don't have a good track record of doing doing even pragmatic conservation. they have kind of a smash and grab model that I don't think most Americans actually support if you really if if you really knew about it, right? If you really thought about it. But Doug Bergum is the opposite extreme. Okay. Kent Boucher (01:00:26.092) Right. Kent Boucher (01:00:30.199) Right. Mm. Kent Boucher (01:00:37.996) Right. Nicolas Lirio (01:00:41.841) I actually I think I think I I think I disagree with you on that, not I'm not trying to defend the Republican Party at all. I think most Americans, like if you just percentage wise, if you said like what matters to you here, they would go, Well, how expensive is my gas gonna be? Am I am I gonna have enough is there gonna be enough surplus that I'll be able to make my kids tournament sports tournaments this weekend? Or am I gonna be able to fly to see my inline? Like that yeah. Or or like how expensive is Hal Herring (01:00:57.979) Yeah. Hal Herring (01:01:06.234) That's how I feel. Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:01:11.355) Milk or eggs gonna you know, that's what they're thinking, is my Netflix you know, account gonna go up. And so when now what you could do is subsect and say, like, you know, any American who's ever visited a national park, you know, it because the the if you get to a national park, the percentage chance that they care, I'm willing to bet, is dramatically higher. But I think Doug Burger or or the Republican Party's view on these things is Hal Herring (01:01:13.18) Right. Nicolas Lirio (01:01:41.401) on these public lands is more of a a symptom of the people that are around that are as Kent and I say numbers people or Doug says always counting. People that are always counting. Hal Herring (01:01:52.975) Right. I yeah. Always yeah. Right, right. The well, let me think of that. How did you how did the increase of leasing on public land for oil and gas affect your gas price at the pump? And Kent Boucher (01:02:06.965) Mm. Nicolas Lirio (01:02:12.071) I I don't know. Hal Herring (01:02:13.466) Well, in twenty fifteen, Congress overturned the petroleum export ban and began putting the sa the petroleum on trucks and on trains to take it out of the United States. So I I I think that people who believe in who st who think that smash and grab say say what happened on the Pine Dale Anticline where they put three thousand wells out there in the Mule Deer winter range for natural gas. and then just kind of have no re they don't have any reclamation, they've got roads everywhere, invasive weeds, they've sacrificed all the other resources to to extract this one. And I don't think that made people's natural gas any cheaper. So if if we get through the kind of Goal-oriented propaganda here, we would understand that that you doing the extractive energy in the least impactful way possible, which is more expensive for the company, is also the long-term solution to our price of eggs. Because what we're talking about with with say the development of having 3,000 abandoned oil and gas wells in the Powder River Basin in Wyoming. that are leaking methane and doing whatever to the minimal aquifer that's there. That's creating a debtor's prison for our children. That is not going to help the price of eggs tomorrow. So people have linked the the people who want to do this and not do it right, which costs more money, have linked the price of eggs and your gas to go to the wrestling tournament. I think of when I can't remember when it was four dollars and something and all my kids were wrestling. It was like Kent Boucher (01:03:38.946) Mm-hmm. Nicolas Lirio (01:03:39.603) Hm. Kent Boucher (01:03:43.703) Yeah. Hal Herring (01:04:00.209) We would sit there at the pump in at six o'clock in the morning and just shake with the credit card, right? But but that was that was during the height of the Bachin. I wasn't I wasn't getting any of that oil. I it so I I think we should de I think we should detach those. Kent Boucher (01:04:05.792) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:04:07.527) Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:04:12.439) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and we're seeing that I'm yeah, and we're seeing that r I mean very immediately with the boundary waters deal. Wait, who's the mining company? Wait, where's the where are the minerals going? Yeah. And right, it it's Hal Herring (01:04:30.744) Right. Chili. Well, on the global market, right. So has Iowa have the have the ro local communities in Iowa prospered from the the allowing that level of water pollution that y'all have? Kent Boucher (01:04:44.631) Right. Nicolas Lirio (01:04:44.893) you know Iowa, the most prosperous GDP positive state. we're one of two states that have had a negative GDP the last two years. And the the I think what you said is perfect with corn because we could do corn well. We would just have to do a lot less of it and less intensely. And the we could either have more money today or we can have, you know, money long term. And I don't know if you remember that study that was done with the kids in the marshmallow. Kent Boucher (01:04:48.375) Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:04:53.035) Right. Well well it Nicolas Lirio (01:05:13.883) And it said that the so the a bunch of little kids were put, I think five, four, five, six years old, put in a room and marshmallow. They s and the people said, All right, I'm gonna come back in five or ten minutes. And if this marshmallow is still here, I'm gonna give you two marshmallows. And the kids who ate it and then the kids who didn't eat it were both tracked throughout their future, and the kids who ate it struggled by quite a margin compared to the kids who didn't eat it and were able to do that delayed Hal Herring (01:05:14.299) Mm mm. Hal Herring (01:05:38.917) Wow. Nicolas Lirio (01:05:43.709) Gratification. And we're just the kid who ate the marshmallow man. Just the the whole as a country. Hal Herring (01:05:46.842) Yeah. Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:05:47.404) Yeah yeah, I I I agree to an extent with that, Nicholas. However, I think like let's go back to the public lands versus cheap gas. I think if you if you said if let's let's take Knoxville, Iowa, that's I'd say Knoxville, Iowa represents your average American town. And and if you went to the the average Knox villain and is that what you guys call yourselves? Knox villains. Nicolas Lirio (01:06:13.789) Ha ha ha. Hal Herring (01:06:14.172) Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:06:15.629) If went to the average Knox villain and said you can have cheaper gas, I agree with Hal. The the economics do not trickle down in that way when it comes to the extractive nature of of how our economy works now so directly. I so let's say but let's say it did. If you could have cheaper gas, but we're gonna sell off this piece of BLM. ground that you've never heard of. I agree with you, Nick. You would have probably most most people who have no, you know, no above average interest in recreating or or or spending any time on that BLM, they'd probably be like, yeah, sure, deal. If you set but if you started saying like, okay, we're gonna sell the Everglades and you're gonna have cheaper gas, they'd probably be like, well, we're gonna sell Yellowstone National Park. Hal Herring (01:06:49.381) Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:07:13.101) We're gonna sell Yosemite. We're gonna sell we're you start naming those, and I think you'll find that a lot of people who are even at we'll say don't even maybe they're low middle class or don't even quite qualify for for middle class. I think they're gonna s they're gonna have a limit with what they're they're willing to what of their American land, you know, public landowner birthright that they have that they're gonna be willing. willing to sell for that cheaper gas. I I think that the reason that we have a lot of the things that we have, even though people hunting is a is a perfect example of that. Roughly I think it's four percent of the population. Is that right, Hal? Hunts. Yeah. And yet and yet we still have the right to do so. And there's a very strong anti hunting voice out there. Hal Herring (01:07:58.703) I think so, yeah. It's really low. Kent Boucher (01:08:07.697) who act in an organized way to try and take those rights away, but yet the bulk of the population is the is who allows hunting to stay and they don't even hunt themselves. And so I think people do we should we should give people, yes, we should definitely call out the the depravity of the human condition. But I think that the people do deserve a little more credit for valuing these things more so than than we realize in Nicolas Lirio (01:08:39.623) Yeah. Yeah, but I think I think part of it's a PR thing. Think about if we tried to rally behind cockroaches like we did the butterfly. People would be like, Psh, gross. You know, whatever. But the butterfly is very easy to rally behind. The Everglades, Yellow Yellowstone National Park, Glacier National Glacier National Park. Hal Herring (01:08:49.264) Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:08:57.677) But that's my point. That's my point is even is is those things are shiny enough and val not just because cause they a lot of those people, lower middle class, haven't been to Glacier National Park. They haven't been to Yellowstone. But they know inside of them that yeah, that that that right there, that's valuable. That's a that's that's a coin that I gotta hang on to. And it's not just it's not just because of the advertising. Hal Herring (01:08:58.384) Yeah, Glacier National Park, yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:09:10.044) Yes. Nicolas Lirio (01:09:16.815) I I to I I a hundred percent I a hundred percent agree with you, Kent. No, no, I think but here's where I would say the difference is is everything you said I totally agree with. I think but in order for people to care about the county parks or the n the non known state parks, you know, the places that a lot less people do and only a small hand group of local pe a handful of local people show up. Hal Herring (01:09:17.702) So I have a question then. Nicolas Lirio (01:09:43.356) If people go to a national park, they see the value of the public land and they'll care about it even down to a county level. But if people never go, they'll be like, yeah, we gotta keep Yellowstone. We gotta keep the Redwood Forest. Those are crazy. They're iconic. We love those. They're a mere but if you said like, yeah, but what about the 86 acre county prairie? Hal Herring (01:09:49.756) Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:10:00.705) Yeah, I said that in the f I said that in the first part. I I agree with you that there's that there's a a percentage of the land that people who have no connection to public land, no deeper meaningful connection, they would be okay with selling their birthright t to have cheaper gas over it. But I I think that there there still is a a big part of people of being an American Nicolas Lirio (01:10:04.443) Okay, yeah, yeah. Hal Herring (01:10:16.412) That to that. Right. Kent Boucher (01:10:26.561) that has a value for those publicly held resources and and it would take it would take an unimaginable price for them to sell it. But Hal Herring (01:10:38.47) But they but they're okay with the National Park Service budget being slashed over and over again. Well, I don't understand that. I don't see how those jive. What I think maybe is that people here's here's what I keep coming back to. If you inherit like my sisters and I did, 136 acres, split five ways, it wasn't worth enough to to be life changing money. Kent Boucher (01:10:42.869) Right, yes. Nicolas Lirio (01:10:43.506) Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:10:45.857) Yes. Kent Boucher (01:11:04.013) Mm-hmm. Hal Herring (01:11:04.09) But once it was gone, we're never gonna get it back. None of us have made the kind of money to buy another 136. So we made the decision to keep that, and and we argue about it a lot too. And this is this is a microcosm of the American public lands. And but but but divested of that asset, we have very little, like almost nothing. And I think that all of us would be shocked at how. Kent Boucher (01:11:10.86) Right. Nicolas Lirio (01:11:10.899) Mm-hmm. Kent Boucher (01:11:17.595) I'm sure, yeah. Yeah. Hal Herring (01:11:32.332) impoverished we felt after that was gone and we can't go there anymore. And I this is why I think I I want to go back with the Latter day Saints stuff. I think that's coming around. I think that old conflict is kind of coming around in Utah amongst a lot of people because they they are starting to see what would happen to the Red Rock country or the Wasatch Range or the Uintas or the Dixie National Forest if the federal government didn't own it. Kent Boucher (01:11:52.055) Mm-hmm. Kent Boucher (01:11:59.596) Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:12:03.788) Right. Hal Herring (01:12:04.164) And and I don't think that they would be well served like your average guy. Maybe he's a goes to church every Sunday at Latter-day Saints and stuff and he knows the history. And he's like me and you. He's a skeptic of the federal government's power. As well, he should be, right? Or she should be. And but but they also recognize that that federal ownership of the Dixie National Forest is for all its conflicts, for all its fallibility. Kent Boucher (01:12:12.769) Mm-hmm. Kent Boucher (01:12:16.725) Yeah, yeah. Yep. Yep. Nicolas Lirio (01:12:18.781) Yeah. Hal Herring (01:12:32.61) is the best outcome for for Utah. And that's and I'm I'm thinking just state, right? And and like and the and the Shoshone National Forest in Wyoming is simply if you if you weighed out all the evidence. Gifford Pinchot, first first chief of the Forest Service, said the greatest good for the greatest number. And that changed a lot over time, right? Because people started learning about ecology and endangered species and hunting. Nicolas Lirio (01:12:36.925) Hm. Yeah. Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:13:00.075) Mm-hmm. Hal Herring (01:13:00.25) You know, when he said that, people hunted a lot, but they weren't it wasn't a conservationist thing. And the Shoshone National Forest was a solution. at one point Pinshot pointed out that if you were gonna continue to homestead the lands in Wyoming, which almost all of them fail, by the way, down there in that sagebrush, right? And they reverted to the federal government under because people abandoned them. But Kent Boucher (01:13:20.439) Yeah. Hal Herring (01:13:27.258) That's we'll talk about Eastern Montana on that too. so what he said was they are taking the this was tie hackers. They were cutting for railroad ties and they're cutting these lodge poles that take about a hundred years to grow. Kent Boucher (01:13:37.824) Okay, yeah. Kent Boucher (01:13:41.815) Yeah. Hal Herring (01:13:42.083) And he said they are taking the railroad ties off what would become the Shoshone National Forest. They're taking those at such a rate that if a homesteader files a claim and takes over some some r free government land, they're not even gonna be able to build a corral. Kent Boucher (01:13:58.712) Hmm. Hal Herring (01:13:58.993) There's not gonna be any timber anywhere for them. And so that the s the Shoshone National Forest was in part set up so that it could provide a sustainable level of timber to people who needed to build a cabin or a a a corral. Kent Boucher (01:14:01.516) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:14:02.077) Wow. Kent Boucher (01:14:14.006) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:14:14.117) I well two two points here or t and and a question for ya. I looked it up. The average forest ranger or park ranger in the United States makes twenty one dollars an hour. And I feel like that's three times as much as they should be. I think we should be slashing those numbers. Is that which is it it's it's only you know, it's about forty three to forty six. I don't know what their overtime looks like, thousand dollars a year, which is you better have Kent Boucher (01:14:30.669) Ha ha ha. Hal Herring (01:14:31.44) Slashing yeah. Kent Boucher (01:14:37.943) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:14:41.243) You either better live alone or you better have a spouse that has a good job, you know what mean? Yeah. yeah. And and so, well, even the top earners are 60 to 70, which, if you're making big decisions for a hundred employees under you, 60 to 70 is just not where we should be as an economy. But but I I do have a question for you, and I've Kent and I have talked about this. We haven't brought it up on the podcast at all. What is good extraction? You know, for Hal Herring (01:14:44.216) And and most of that's seasonal. Most of that would be seasonal. Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:14:45.035) Yeah. Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:14:59.565) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:15:09.361) There's there's mining, there's there's there's mining, there's drilling for oil, there's I mean there's drilling into the aquifers with the wells, there's I know you've talked about grazing, there's good ways to do grazing, but people aren't prepared for us to be like, Yeah, we're not we're not doing any mining. You know, it and and so you've seen it done. I imagine you've even been to some of the places. What is good extraction look like and can it be done with some of these more toxic Hal Herring (01:15:21.328) Totally. Hal Herring (01:15:28.005) No way. Nicolas Lirio (01:15:36.507) situations like copper or mining for coal or you know. Hal Herring (01:15:38.363) Right. Well so personally, I don't think I've ever seen I I worked as a mine reclamation laborer when I was in my twenties and I've I've been to coal coal mines, gold mines, all the I've never seen low impact mining. Kent Boucher (01:15:55.681) Mm. Hal Herring (01:15:56.121) Okay, however, that doesn't mean that you don't need silver, gold, and copper, right? good extraction is is a process that doesn't leave a mess for other people to clean up and is done with the lowest impact possible. and that's true of timbering. grazing's a little different because you can manage grazing. Kent Boucher (01:16:01.165) Yeah. Hal Herring (01:16:22.564) in a way that that doesn't have the la long-term reduction in the carrying capacity of that land. That's all I would say for for grazing is is are we doing it in a way that does not reduce the long-term carrying capacity of that land? And then you can have the wildlife advocates and the hunting people and everything step in and say, well we want this, right? But if that land is public Kent Boucher (01:16:28.716) Hm. Kent Boucher (01:16:45.761) Mm-hmm. Hal Herring (01:16:47.952) then we all have a say in in in what happens there. And I believe in conflict. Nicholas, this is a big thing for me. I believe that people should get in a room and, you know, the i once it goes to violence, the the biggest, baddest idea wins, right? They just smash you in the face. Like like in Putin's Russia. You don't get to like argue your point. Kent Boucher (01:17:10.348) Mm. Hal Herring (01:17:15.066) You know, during the Liberian Civil War I had this woman tell me in in Africa, she's from Liberia, and she just said, You argue with a rebel, it's bang. You're done. There's no there's no rational argument, there's no way you present your case. But Kent Boucher (01:17:15.084) Mm. Nicolas Lirio (01:17:29.171) Hm. Hal Herring (01:17:30.362) Within the structure of the United States, the way we built it with these with these with litigation, the judicial part of it all, we all have a say and it's totally irritating, right? Here's this guy who likes like snapdragons and he can't stand it that we're logging this place where these snapdragons live and he's going crazy over it and he sues us and we're furious because all we want to do is get some timber out and employ Joe and Bill, right? But that kind of conflict has been very beneficial to our country. Kent Boucher (01:17:52.864) Yeah. Hal Herring (01:18:00.911) It's it's it's given the chance for good ideas to take root and for somebody to go, okay, well, we can log off that and leave those snapdragons over here. And and then it turns out that that was a good idea anyway. And the conflicts over grazing to me, the the anti-grazing groups, okay, people get so irritated at them, right? But they have a function to play here. Kent Boucher (01:18:00.94) Mm. Nicolas Lirio (01:18:01.363) Hm. Kent Boucher (01:18:24.855) Yeah. Yeah. Hal Herring (01:18:27.652) It's like let let the ideas compete, right? Let the let the conflict be. And and let's argue over so the boundary waters thing with the Superior National Forest, that was a that was a a mining lease was that they took away. They removed the leasing from that area because it was deemed as to be so important to that watershed that you couldn't do it without jeopardizing the watershed. Kent Boucher (01:18:31.521) Yeah. I like that. Nicolas Lirio (01:18:55.335) Hm. Kent Boucher (01:18:55.734) Mm-hmm. Hal Herring (01:18:56.378) And so they just said, well, that's not happening anymore. We're putting it, we're putting the lease in back. And they did that again through government fiat. We didn't have a big meeting where we said a hundred people got together from there and said, Can this be done without wrecking the place? They didn't do that. They merely signed a paper. That's not really an American way of doing stuff, man. Kent Boucher (01:19:18.679) No. Kent Boucher (01:19:24.343) Yeah. Yeah. Hal Herring (01:19:25.37) That's that's again, it's we the government has a function and we all know that. But the government you it it's like balance. You you can never trust that they'll do the right thing. You have to constantly be holding them accountable. You know Kent Boucher (01:19:41.174) Right, yeah. Yeah, this the the the second I think a lot of times we view the government as it's only self regulative, you know, by the balance of of the three branches and and we forget that there's a fourth branch and that's us the voter. And and i the the sooner we get bored with all of this and the sooner that we stop caring and w you know, I hear so often Hal Herring (01:19:54.843) Right. Hal Herring (01:19:59.632) Right. Nicolas Lirio (01:19:59.859) Hm. Kent Boucher (01:20:10.701) and I get it, and I've been this way myself before, so I'm not trying to pass judgment, but I think it's a unhelpful way to look at things. I hear so often people say, I the it's just so negative, I I don't I don't pay attention to politics anymore. I don't I don't pay attention, I don't I don't follow the news, I don't I don't I just do my own happy little thing over here. And you can do that and and a certain chunk of people can do that, but if everyone Hal Herring (01:20:23.557) Yeah, for sure. Kent Boucher (01:20:39.097) It's it's like when you're in school and you're so thankful. You're annoyed by but you're so thankful for the teacher's pet kids because they're the ones that go out for all school Senate and they get you know, they get on the the student council and they make sure that you still have prom and that you have you have you know, the the fun around homecoming week and you're like, Yeah, you know what Hal Herring (01:20:49.979) Right. Hal Herring (01:20:54.982) Right. Kent Boucher (01:21:01.439) I am thankful for that kid. They're annoying as anything, but I'm glad that they exist because I have zero interest in doing any of that extra work and I just want to do my own thing over here. And and we carry that mentality on with us into life. And if we all think that we can just hide in our own little hole and let let the powers that be duke it out and we're we're gonna be good with what comes out of that, you might be, but you're gonna gradually Hal Herring (01:21:05.264) Right. Kent Boucher (01:21:30.74) as you hand more power and more control over to those other branches, you're gonna be you're gonna be left with something eventually. And and by saying you, it might I might be talking about your grandkids are going to be left with something that you would not have been okay with. And so I think it is important that we stay informed on these things and that we stay active as the fourth branch of government being the voter. And and What I think is far more powerful than than sitting on the other side of the aisle and having somebody who you don't agree with as your elected official and saying, I don't like it that you do that. Well th their answer's gonna be, of course you don't. You're a you're a Republican and I'm a Democrat. But it's when you're a Democrat and your elected official is also a Democrat and you say, Hey, look, I voted for you and it was my understanding that when you ran you said you were gonna Hal Herring (01:22:14.672) Right. Right. Kent Boucher (01:22:28.203) before this and and not for this and you've done the exact opposite. as your const as as your as your constituent as someone who's voting for you, I don't plan to vote for you again if I don't see some serious change here. And and you know to to offer that kind of a critique is going to be meaningful and yet I just don't think people people make Nicolas Lirio (01:22:33.981) We're gonna have a lot of those emails about water quality. I'm afraid of it. Kent Boucher (01:22:58.025) social media posts or they go on a podcast like we're doing right now and they they they run their mouth for a a while like I'm doing. But until you actually interface with the the people who are really making the decisions and let know that you're watching and that you're voting accordingly and then you can say, by the way, I have X number of followers on social media and I'm gonna be talking about it there too. Or I have I have this kind of a a a reach wherever And I'm gonna be talking about it there too. Now it's time, you know, well, maybe I should pay attention to what my constitu constituents think. And I I just think that you know, if we if we disinvolve ourselves, no matter how much we think the fight is out of control, we will we will confirm that by further disinvolving ourselves. Hal Herring (01:23:32.753) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:23:52.316) Yeah, and I I wanna make the point. We've talked about this before. It is not that hard to just have a list on your iPhone of names and emails of everyone that represents you. I mean, it's like it might feel overwhelming because you're seeing ads for all this stuff, but the the truth of the matter is at a state and federal level, the people that represent you, there's like twelve. You know what I mean? There th there's not that many. And then just make a habit. I remember my history teacher said I send our representatives an email every Kent Boucher (01:24:01.387) Yeah. Yep. Kent Boucher (01:24:13.771) Yeah. Hal Herring (01:24:14.766) Right. Nicolas Lirio (01:24:22.432) but once a month is Kent Boucher (01:24:23.469) Hm. Kent Boucher (01:24:27.243) I guarantee they listen I I guarantee you they consider that guy though. You know what I mean? 'Cause they they're like, it's it's it's Jim again, you know. Hal Herring (01:24:27.548) All right. Hal Herring (01:24:31.771) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:24:34.107) Yeah, well and and and he's intelligent and he's not a name caller and he I he's a good dude and but also if they hear from you regularly and you're thought out and you just once a quarter or once once a month, it's I the truth is it's not that hard. But but you'd be shocked how many people don't even show up to vote. I just think I yeah, I I d it j it's laziness to me. Kent Boucher (01:24:53.378) Mm-hmm. Kent Boucher (01:24:57.517) Yeah. Hal Herring (01:24:58.236) All right. I would it well, it's a participatory democratic republic and that requires that people participate. Nicolas Lirio (01:25:02.939) It's just laziness. Kent Boucher (01:25:07.117) Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:25:11.009) Yeah. Hal Herring (01:25:12.056) What what I've tried to do with this research and stuff I've done is is try, especially with this public lands thing, is just try to remind people, my fellow Americans, of how many successes and how hard won most of them were that we have that we have inherited. Kent Boucher (01:25:33.229) Yeah. Hal Herring (01:25:33.635) And and when people talk to me about I'm glad they're talking about the Taylor Grayson Act right now with this American Prairie thing. Because the the Taylor Grayson Act was i what it what has happened in 1934, right? This is the height of the Dust Bowl. And and people are going, How do we solve this problem? Well, they didn't solve it forever. Kent Boucher (01:25:48.075) Yeah, right. Yep. Kent Boucher (01:25:54.732) Yeah. Hal Herring (01:25:54.885) It was a but it was a a damn good idea to do what they did. And there was a lot of people that didn't want them to do it. They were like, No, I don't want that. That's ridiculous. The government can't do nothing right. I how many times have I heard that right? And then I'm sitting there, I'm driving down the highway to get my mail, and there's no bandits attacking, and I've got a job where I've got, you know, some money in my pocket, my kids are healthy. Kent Boucher (01:25:58.424) Mm-hmm. Kent Boucher (01:26:05.197) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:26:05.373) Hm. Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:26:08.437) Yeah. Right. Kent Boucher (01:26:17.835) Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:26:23.149) Yeah. Hal Herring (01:26:23.492) They're going to wrestling practice or my you know, my son works in the in the Oahee Desert as a cowboy, right? That's all is public leasing. My daughter is at working at a vet clinic in Bozeman. They're ha they're good, right? They things are good. Well, they're not good by accident. They're not good because somebody just goes like you can't do nothing, right? Kent Boucher (01:26:30.594) Wow. Kent Boucher (01:26:37.366) Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:26:43.829) Yeah, right, yeah. Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:26:43.933) Yeah. Hal Herring (01:26:44.412) It's crazy, man. And and I look at the depression through the dust bowl, and the government did a lot. My grandfather hated FDR. I'm not sure why. He was an old Alabama guy, but my grandfather was. But FDR and them, they used an activist federal government to fix a lot of stuff. And then they set in motion a lot of these farm programs now that have become wrong. Kent Boucher (01:26:58.477) Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:27:05.621) Right. Kent Boucher (01:27:12.427) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Hal Herring (01:27:12.484) Right. And and my my belief that that from FDR is that those those project those programs should have sunseted and been been reevaluated for their effectiveness after the Dust Bowl was over. Right. But we have let me let me go you one in eastern Montana out there where the AP is, in that country, there's this thing called the Bankhead Jones Land. And that was Senator Bankhead from Alabama. And they did that was called the sent the Bankhead Jones Farm Tenant Act. It was a 19, I don't know, 30s, 30s, 20, 27, May 30. No, it was after the Dust Bowl. So the 30s. And that was to allow the federal government to retake ownership. This would be the public land, right? If you look at a big if you look at a USGS map, these lands are pink. Kent Boucher (01:28:03.777) Mm-hmm. Hal Herring (01:28:08.56) And there's lots of them. There's some in New Mexico. There's a lot in Eastern Montana. Those were lands abandoned by homesteaders after they had plowed them. They were starving to death. There was no way you could grow wheat in in that alkali country. So they had they had gotten off the train. They had claimed their land. Kent Boucher (01:28:23.757) Yeah. Hal Herring (01:28:32.656) They plowed it, they'd lived, they'd done everything they could, and they just left. So there at that time there was say 5,000 head of of livestock, like plow horses, abandoned in Phillips County alone. That's that's where the A that's where the AP has got a lot of land, the American Prairie. 5,000 head of l livestock just just out there starving. So Kent Boucher (01:28:37.239) Hmm. Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:28:44.214) Right, yeah. That's crazy. Nicolas Lirio (01:28:47.57) Hmm. Kent Boucher (01:28:51.297) Yeah. Hal Herring (01:28:57.148) this was around so we we missed the dust bowl here and that's because it stopped raining here around nineteen seventeen. And so by the time nineteen thirty-three they left. They already left. They already left. and so by nineteen thirty-three, which at that time was the hottest year on record, right? the the homesteaders had mu that boom had ended in eastern Montana, where the American Prairie is now. Kent Boucher (01:29:01.269) Okay. Kent Boucher (01:29:08.343) So people yeah, people weren't yeah, they weren't there to create it. Kent Boucher (01:29:18.113) Mm-hmm. Kent Boucher (01:29:24.309) It's so interesting. Hal Herring (01:29:25.788) it is totally interesting. And and these so the Bankhead Jones lands reverted to federal ownership, and that allowed the taxpayers in New York City and Alabama and Texas and all to pool our money, and they could replant that. And unfortunately, they put cheap they put crested wheatgrass on it. What they did was they put whatever they could on it to hold the dirt and to get the restoration started. Okay, so. Kent Boucher (01:29:46.966) Yeah. Right. Right. Hal Herring (01:29:55.247) I don't know who Jones was, but Bankhead was a senator from Alabama. And they were having the same problems. You can't believe it, but some of the biggest erosion gullies in America are in Alabama. Where yeah, it's where they cut the sharecroppers, cut down the forest because they didn't have any other land. And they farmed that and it just washed away. You get it gets 54 inches of rain a year, right? So it all of it just washed away. So Senator Bankhead was very knew a lot about this. Kent Boucher (01:30:06.547) really? Nicolas Lirio (01:30:06.631) Hmm. Kent Boucher (01:30:15.669) Okay. Nicolas Lirio (01:30:18.472) Hmm. Kent Boucher (01:30:18.647) Yeah. Hal Herring (01:30:25.09) And they created the Farm Tenant Act, sent the Bankhead Jones Act. And that was used in New Mexico and Montana. It wasn't needed as much in Alabama. the Bankhead National Forest, the Talladega National Forest, the and the let me think T Tuskegee National Forest were all taken by the federal government under the Weeks Act because of the erosion. Kent Boucher (01:30:43.437) Okay, yeah. Hal Herring (01:30:49.062) They were unin basically uninhabitable. So so he knew a lot about this. So dig this. We solved a problem that like goes back to the Roman Empire of land degradation. And we did that through the federal government and through voters who elected Senator Bankhead and whoever Senator Jones was. And we solved a problem that had stomped human civilizations since for millennia. Kent Boucher (01:30:59.819) Yeah. Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:31:08.3) Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:31:14.24) Millennium. Hal Herring (01:31:16.474) I mean, and the other thing about public lands is like when you were in England and the king forbids you to hunt the king's deer, you couldn't get in Sherwood Forest or we'll hang you, right? So the only place those people, so they had cut down all the ew trees to get longbows for the English army, right? So nobody could get any bow wood. And so you I don't know, you might already know this, but in the cemetery. Kent Boucher (01:31:24.181) Right, yeah. Right. Kent Boucher (01:31:36.151) Mm-hmm. Nicolas Lirio (01:31:36.531) Hmm. Kent Boucher (01:31:42.157) That's crazy. Hal Herring (01:31:45.763) in in Europe, in England, there are bew trees, huge U trees. Some of the oldest ones in existence. And they're there because the cemetery was the only place that the public had access to. Where they could get a piece of bow wood and make a bow. So when so when they created that situation, which was done through 1604, they started the enclosure acts Kent Boucher (01:31:50.925) Mm-hmm. Nicolas Lirio (01:31:58.621) Hmm. Kent Boucher (01:32:01.459) Wow. Wow. Nicolas Lirio (01:32:03.833) Interesting. Kent Boucher (01:32:12.439) Mm-hmm. Hal Herring (01:32:12.58) And all the peasants and all the serfs, my people, were in there and they're going, like, you can't live here anymore. We're enclosing it. That drove sixteen four, right? Seventeen eighty through seventeen eighty nine. That drove the people to the United States, to to what became the United States. So, yes. Kent Boucher (01:32:28.459) Yeah. Yeah. A place to have somewhere to live. Place to have some land. Nicolas Lirio (01:32:29.714) Hmm. Hal Herring (01:32:34.906) Yes, and then in eighteen ninety one we said, Wow, that enclosure act stuff, somebody remembered it. Somebody was smart, they knew history. They said, That didn't work out so well. Let's have a national forest. Kent Boucher (01:32:47.681) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:32:48.519) Wow. So Kent Boucher (01:32:50.167) That is Hal Herring (01:32:50.222) And and I I can't believe that we would repeat the enclosure acts in the United States of America in twenty twenty six. We just like Yeah, would it yes Kent Boucher (01:32:54.166) Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:32:57.612) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:32:57.719) we're all goldfish. We got the memory of a goldfish. Hey, we we do need to start wrapping up, but there was one thing you said before we started that I really want to hear your opinion on. You were saying that our public lands, the lands that we decide we're gonna put resources into take taking care of are the arc of the future. Could you unpack that? I did not fully understand what you were saying. Kent Boucher (01:33:02.583) Yeah. Hal Herring (01:33:22.298) Yeah. So in my lifetime I was born in nineteen sixty four. So the population in the United States was one hundred eighty then. And I think it's three sixty now, maybe whatever. And and so but Kent Boucher (01:33:34.85) Wow. I've been saying I've been saying three thirty for a long time and that's that's just not accurate anymore. Hal Herring (01:33:40.731) Yeah. Well it's if you look at the figures, the legal immigration figures from two thousand to now, that they're really high. and so what I so even population aside, we have an opportunity on these public lands. We have an opportunity on private land even more, but you and I can't affect that. Right? So like like Kent Boucher (01:33:54.69) Mm-hmm. Hal Herring (01:34:08.24) People that like the Nature Conservancy or Ted Turner did it right, right? But you and I don't have a say in it. I when I'm talking about ecological diversity being the priority. but we have a chance here to manage land and the we're still gonna extract. I I still want timber, I still want minerals, and I still want oil and gas. I just want it Kent Boucher (01:34:30.637) Yeah. Hal Herring (01:34:35.684) I want it produced without sacrificing all the other resources. And and where possible, see, when I saw the cutting of the budgets for the Forest Service, the Doge, I saw the and and the National Parks too. But my my my purview really is Forest Service BLM. I'm I don't know that much about the parks. But when I saw those budgets being cut, I was like, this is the exact opposite of what I would do knowing what I know. Kent Boucher (01:34:40.429) Mm-hmm. Kent Boucher (01:34:47.125) Yeah. Yeah. Hal Herring (01:35:04.708) when we could do hu huge scale fuels reduction to reduce forest fires. That costs a lot of money. And the beauty of that is I I'm speaking from bias. Again, I was a contractor on public lands for 27 years, 28 years. That was part of my income as a while when I wasn't writing. I did everything from trails to thinning timber to control burns to climbing trees for pine cones, whatever. so I believe in local rural employment. Kent Boucher (01:35:09.069) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Hal Herring (01:35:33.476) I really believe in rural economic development. And I would have liked a bunch of kids in my town to have a job on the Forest Service. They would be trained to run chainsaw or whatever and do thinning and fuels reduction. So you would maximize your land resilience and your watersheds and and by biodiversity as well. Kent Boucher (01:35:54.732) Yeah. Hal Herring (01:35:55.365) And we would be building a a future that the population will eventually go down. Whether it does or not, I don't know. But we will be building a future that our grandchildren can be proud of. And they can talk about us. Like I I all these people go, Yeah have you heard Aldo Leopold Sand County Almanac? And I was like, Yes, I have. And I love that book. And I said, But the thing is, is we he's been dead for Nicolas Lirio (01:36:08.147) Mm. Kent Boucher (01:36:08.321) Yeah. Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:36:15.937) Yeah, yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:36:17.341) Yeah. Hal Herring (01:36:24.302) Like eighty eighty years. And so we I want our grandchildren in the United States of America to quote us. Kent Boucher (01:36:24.481) Yes. Yeah, seventy eighty years, yeah. Kent Boucher (01:36:36.087) Yeah. Yep. Hal Herring (01:36:38.132) I want to be the person who knew that this was the thing to do that would best make say in in Utah, for instance, where they're having incredible water problems and we'll have to fight the AI data center stuff. We'll we'll fight. That's that's that's the fight of the hour, the crazy whatever it is gonna be. I don't even understand it. But Kent Boucher (01:36:55.329) Yeah. Hal Herring (01:36:58.146) If you were to really I I believe that those lands belong to the American people and should be held in in our public like hands, managed by the federal government, we'll argue over their management, and we'll we'll make some create some resources while building this powerful ecosystem services is the catchword, right? And and that's true. Our our rangelands should be in the best shape. Kent Boucher (01:37:07.735) Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:37:21.259) Yeah. Yep. Hal Herring (01:37:28.016) they've ever been no with the science and the understanding that we've built over the last hundred and fifty years. But they're not, they're not. But they should be and they could be. Kent Boucher (01:37:34.422) Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:37:39.735) Mm-hmm. Nicolas Lirio (01:37:40.177) Hmm. Is it just there's no money being funneled in to do the practices that are needed? Hal Herring (01:37:48.315) That's part of it. that we have not prioritized these things. And and it's the same thing. It's one one, it's the marshmallow issue. For sure. And the other is that the that we as a people don't know really where our butt bread is buttered. Nicolas Lirio (01:37:52.531) Hmm. Kent Boucher (01:37:57.015) Mm-hmm. Kent Boucher (01:38:07.468) Mm. Hal Herring (01:38:08.494) And so we prioritize kind of things that don't matter as much without remembering that nothing we do exists without topsoil and rain and grass. You know, and like this place I live, it it's really perfect for converting sunlight and grass to good meat. Kent Boucher (01:38:21.005) Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:38:32.695) Yeah. Hal Herring (01:38:34.204) It's not so great for growing wheat, but you can do it. But it's a place and and that's been a priority here because we have so much ranching, right? But but I just think that I think people have gotten very abstract. And like in Utah, I if people remembered why they set up the Wasatch National Forest in the first place. Kent Boucher (01:38:42.849) Mm. Kent Boucher (01:38:57.175) Yeah. Hal Herring (01:38:58.288) this argument over the public lands which may be rooted in in old animosities to the federal government, but it would settle out of sheer pragm pragmatism. Kent Boucher (01:39:08.417) Yeah. Yeah. Hal Herring (01:39:11.236) And and that has to do with the ark, by the way. The the ark also carries the fresh water that we need to survive. Kent Boucher (01:39:14.155) Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:39:18.039) Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah, the it's it's a sobering thing to think about and one of the most complicated aspects of it is is our human population and and I I don't speak for our for both of you, but I think you both agree that depopulating our our own species is not the the answer to solving this. I think it's I th there and it's important to say that because that is a criticism that that Hal Herring (01:39:41.436) Ha. Kent Boucher (01:39:47.554) people who are against the the they call it what do they call it the environmental movement or you know just conservation ideals, right? I had a friend send me a text recently who's not you know, he's not a c he's a he's a friend from college. This is he he's he's not s he's not anti conservation. He's just he's he's conservation agnostic, right? And and Hal Herring (01:40:14.94) Mm-hmm. Kent Boucher (01:40:17.885) He said I don't know if I should have my daughters who are in Girl Scouts marching the what was it, the the Earth Day parade. because, you know, isn't that kind of like an anti human movement? And and the you know, I don't know enough about Earth Day. I know it was set up when was it in the eighties? Hal Herring (01:40:35.9) Ooh. Kent Boucher (01:40:46.101) late seventies, early eighties, something like that. And so I don't know enough Yeah, that there there and I so I don't know if maybe at some point some someone within the Earth Day movement made a speech or something that that got them that kind I've never heard that before. But that criticism and I don't believe that it that it has been associated with that. And I had a Hal Herring (01:40:46.402) Earlier. Yeah. Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:40:50.675) 'Cause the river was on fire. The Ohio River was on fire or something? Hal Herring (01:40:52.976) Yeah. Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:41:14.473) I had a response for him that I will not share here. but the it ha it had to do with some other anti human in practice as opposed to in theory things that have gone on that I didn't hear him worried about. But the the point is that is a real criticism that gets thrown out. And I've even been in a room Hal Herring (01:41:17.628) Ha ha ha. Kent Boucher (01:41:42.005) And had a conversation with another conservationist and I said, Now we want to make sure that this isn't where you know, what we're not saying, right? And the and their answer was kinda like, Do we? And it's like, whoa. So there there are there are people in the in the con to be fair, in the conservation space who who have an anti human bent to them. And and I well, l let me let me finish here though. I Hal Herring (01:41:53.562) Ha ha ha. Nicolas Lirio (01:41:53.593) Yeah, they yeah. Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:42:04.509) I wan I wanna break it down your point that you're making. Kent Boucher (01:42:10.453) D don't let me talk about a super controversial thing and not finish my my statement. That's dangerous territory, especially when you're making the reels, Nick. I think it's so I think it's so important though that that we do not represent that. And we don't it's not some thing hidden in the closet that aha, you know, now that you've you've followed our ways, time for the great depopulation. No, it I think we need the human life is is the most valuable thing Nicolas Lirio (01:42:13.575) Yeah. Hal Herring (01:42:14.886) Ha ha ha Kent Boucher (01:42:39.533) we can imagine and and that that we have and we need to find a way to have both a healthy human population and a a world that can support them and and a lot of that starts with what Nick was talking about earlier with we just consume so much on an individual basis that that we gotta look for the places where the the surplus, the the the the the gross waste, right? It's okay to have some surplus. Th that that's that's the difference between surviving and thriving, right? Is that you have you got enough in your storehouses for when the thin times come. But there there's also I mean, you look around us we have so much surplus that a lot of us are wearing that surplus every day and Hal Herring (01:43:33.222) Right. Wearing that corn syrup. Yeah. Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:43:34.941) Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:43:36.49) That's right. Wearing that corn syrup. Nicolas Lirio (01:43:37.288) Yeah, yeah. Well and so to your point, Kent, very basic macroecon for people listening, is our debt. We have decided as a society we're gonna live in debt, which basically says I want it today, I'll pay for it tomorrow. Right. As a as a whole, as a society, we've decided that. And part of the math that makes debt work is we are figuring The world will get or the technology will get more efficient and or there will be more humans to take on that increasing debt load so it's still spread evenly. Yep. And and so and so that's fine. I don't love it, but that's fine. So if you had less people, but you have just as much consuming, you still have the same, you still have a you you have a civilization collapsing debt load. Kent Boucher (01:44:07.853) Mm-hmm. Kent Boucher (01:44:13.025) Yeah, the the grow the grow out of the debt idea, right? Hal Herring (01:44:15.036) Mm-hmm. Nicolas Lirio (01:44:32.817) You know, if it if it just skyrockets like that. But if you just decide today that you're gonna consume less and we have the same amount of humans, that actually solves the problem. That actually w would take care of it long term. And and it's not it's not like three percent in the margins we could get rid of. We could like 50%. Kent Boucher (01:44:58.411) Yeah. Well well what what what per what percentage what percentage of of food is thrown away again? Nicolas Lirio (01:44:58.725) Of what we consume could be I'm not saying we have to do that. I agree with you, Ken. It's okay to have some surplus. Nicolas Lirio (01:45:06.661) I just looked it up. The United States produces but right under four thousand calories per person per day, and the average American needs about twenty one hundred calories. So where does all that go? It's either wasted because we ate it and we did not need it at all, or it's wasted because literally it gets thrown away. And and it's over half of it gets over half of our waste gets thrown away. And of of that, I think. Kent Boucher (01:45:23.33) Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:45:29.313) Yeah. Hal Herring (01:45:29.563) that's wild. Nicolas Lirio (01:45:36.369) you know, an extra four hundred calories gets eaten a day, which is not nothing, you know. And so if you amateurize that over time. Yeah. So I Hal Herring (01:45:41.092) Not not over a year. Right, yeah, right. That's fascinating. I so but now so you're talking about in this like these are individual choices though, because I I I don't think the government could have the power like y you'd be talking about like Maoism or something to to make everybody like have less. so it no, I know. And so Kent Boucher (01:45:43.083) Yeah, that's right. That's right. Kent Boucher (01:46:00.737) Yeah. Right, yeah, yeah. It's gotta be on the individual. Nicolas Lirio (01:46:03.313) No yeah. No, we're not into that. Hal Herring (01:46:07.926) These have to be what I what I would think about this too is like using self-discipline and living that life of of say, what do I need versus what do I want? I mean I th we were talking about before you started recording that. I'm not sure that all this like incredible like profligate like stuff has made us any happier, you know? But as an individual, like you choose this more minimal life where things that matter Kent Boucher (01:46:15.03) Mm-hmm. Kent Boucher (01:46:18.539) Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:46:29.515) Right. Right. Hal Herring (01:46:37.572) I always think about that word the verities. You know, like how much time do I have to spend with my kids? can we go fishing and eat fish out of the river because they're not polluted? you know, can we spend a week working on on say softball? You know, like like verities versus like a overabundance. Kent Boucher (01:46:37.739) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:46:48.973) Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:46:54.859) Right. Right. Hal Herring (01:47:01.968) And then you run into people though who they have like that hungry ghost, right? And they just gotta have the new truck or they're unhappy. And they've gotta like like where I grew up, they're building these houses that must be 5,500 square feet. And you think, man, they must have like six kids. They don't, they have one. And like, where did we come with where did that happen? Like, like, is that a hungry ghost thing that drives people or Kent Boucher (01:47:21.559) Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:47:25.942) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:47:31.198) They I listened to this podcast called My First Million. And it sounds like just a greedy podcast. The two hosts, they're really balanced guys. I really like them. And they will ask people, how do you kill the money monster? They call it a money monster, right? Because a lot of times entrepreneurs are driven just by more. You know, there are some entrepreneurs who are driven by like there's a problem and they want to solve it, which goes all the way back to our one of our first episodes with Tabitha Panis. Don't follow your dreams. Look at a problem and solve it. More satisfaction will come from Hal Herring (01:47:45.019) Mm. Hal Herring (01:47:48.796) Right. Kent Boucher (01:47:48.908) Mm-hmm. Hal Herring (01:47:58.907) Hmm. Nicolas Lirio (01:48:00.527) solving a problem in your life that took quite a bit of compute and quite a bit of energy to solve, then anything, any Disney World, any dream job, anything like that could ever could you have the most satisfaction to take on that responsibility and solve it. And so there are some entrepreneurs that do that, but a lot of them are just driven by more and they get 10 million in their bank account. And they talk about it. I get 10 million in my bank account's not enough. And there was this this census that was taken where it's like how much money would make you happy Hal Herring (01:48:05.658) Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:48:08.343) Mm-hmm. Nicolas Lirio (01:48:28.731) And no matter how much money they had in their bank account, their answer was two to three times how much they had. So if they had a million dollars that, well, if I had two or three million dollars or made two or three times as much, and they would give specific numbers. They didn't say two or three times as much. That was just how it ended up mapped out. And you're right, there's a there's a money monster ghost inside of us. And that's our tagline's conservation happens one mind at time. If we can't kill that, that hungry, never ending, never ending vortex inside of our humanity, the earth's screwed. Hal Herring (01:48:34.492) Right. Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:48:34.722) Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:48:38.668) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:48:57.777) It really is. If that we we can go do all the policy, we can we could become communists and the government decide everything. It we are screwed if humans as a whole we can't figure that out. Kent Boucher (01:48:58.785) Yeah. Hal Herring (01:48:59.313) Right. Hal Herring (01:49:05.936) Yeah. Well look at how badly that went. Like like where the where the government got everybody. Now you you know, you eat two chickens and four potatoes. And then pretty soon that that's animal farm, right? That's that Orwell that Orwell book is just like it comes to me all the time now. You know, two leg four legs good, two legs bad. Kent Boucher (01:49:08.332) Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:49:16.557) Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:49:20.066) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:49:20.486) Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:49:25.453) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:49:26.035) Man. Yeah, that's a Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:49:29.867) Yeah. Yeah. It yeah, I I think I think it's just the it's the central theme to all of this, you know. If you have to fight for for what's for what's good and you can't give up on that and you can't get lazy with it and you have to recalibrate to know what's good and and that and and then continue fighting. Hal Herring (01:49:48.112) Yeah. Hal Herring (01:49:51.46) And and I just say a prize oneself as an American, and because we are very even if you're really poor, living in this country is still pretty privileged. It's still a privilege, even though even if you're even if yeah, even if you're struggling and so well, we we need a lot of changes, but we always have, right? It's a it's a pro it's an ex the American experiment, right? It's not like a done deal. Kent Boucher (01:49:58.818) Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:50:03.489) Yeah. It's a wealth token. Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:50:14.709) Yeah. Yep. Right. Hal Herring (01:50:19.468) And but I would apprise oneself when y'all were talking about that local park, Land and Water Conservation Fund, which is passed in nineteen sixty-four, was one of the most visionary funding mechanisms for open space, parks, ball fields, swimming pools for for for lower income Americans, right? Kent Boucher (01:50:24.588) Mm-hmm. Kent Boucher (01:50:37.474) Yeah. Hal Herring (01:50:42.66) And I always think about this because one of the things they want to do, they go, Why would Land and Water Conservation Fund, which takes from revenues from oil offshore oil and gas and puts them into a general fund for funding like open space and projects for small towns mostly. And and they do they do a lot of public land stuff. But they there was a lot of swimming pools in the nineteen fifties and early sixties that were paid for in the Great Plains region. by land and water conservation fund. And they were like, why are they doing that? Well part of it was military preparedness. They wanted kids to be like strong and healthy and run around and the Navy wanted kids that could swim. And so Kent Boucher (01:51:07.669) Hmm. Nicolas Lirio (01:51:15.25) Hmm. Kent Boucher (01:51:17.583) yeah. Kent Boucher (01:51:22.561) Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Hal Herring (01:51:25.026) And and a really early version when CRP well erodable cropland program became CRP in 1985, because I was twenty I was like I was like twenty years old. We we put some land in in what was ERP. And that also had a s national security deal was they wanted that marginal land to be fallowed. Kent Boucher (01:51:33.847) Mm-hmm. Kent Boucher (01:51:49.004) Yeah. Hal Herring (01:51:49.029) And they would pay pay the landowner to fallow that land. And it was called Conservation Reserve Program in nineteen eighty five. Before it was erodible cropland program, right? To take erodible lands out. But part of that was also if if the United States got into a siege warfare and you needed every acre, you could break that out and feed the people and and we would withstand the enemy. So Kent Boucher (01:51:57.624) Sure, yep. Yep. Kent Boucher (01:52:05.249) Mm. Nicolas Lirio (01:52:12.529) Hmm. Interesting. Kent Boucher (01:52:12.555) Hmm, that is so interesting. It makes sense. Hal Herring (01:52:14.478) It's and and so like man, we yeah, we have solved all these problems. Like, like I want people to go back and look at at why we have what we have when I go elk hunting west of my house and I drive through giant ranches where I cannot go, I can't even stop the truck and cross the fence. And then I get to the National Forest and I can go elk hunting for two weeks. And until I was about thirty seven years old, I never even asked why that was. Kent Boucher (01:52:44.193) Yeah. Yep. Kent Boucher (01:52:52.375) Yeah. Yeah. That's a that's a great point. And I think it goes so hand in hand with what Nicholas you were talking about with people being satisfied with less of the shiny. You time is time is not nature abhors a vacuum. Nature also abhors an empty brush pro pile. I meant to start our I s meant to start our podcast with that yesterday, our coffee time podcast with that yesterday, Nicholas, about how nature abhors Nicolas Lirio (01:52:52.497) Wow. Yeah. Hal Herring (01:53:17.976) Kent Boucher (01:53:21.417) I I literally had there's two brush piles in my yard, Hal. A big one for like the real big stuff and then the the small one for like the little sticks where you pick up while you're you're mowing or you know, working in the yard. And I kid you not, my grandparents burned down the big one a couple of weeks before and the n very night that I had w that afternoon my grandparents came over, we had a little cookout with them over the smaller brush pile that very night. Hal Herring (01:53:32.827) Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:53:50.111) one my big maples that my great grandmother planted in my yard split in half in a thunderstorm and both brush piles are full again. So nature abhor nature abhors a vacuum and nature abhorves an empty brush pile. But but if you take people and you say, Hey, no more blowing all your money on Disneyland, no more blowing all your money on on a mountain of toys for your kids, no more blowing your money on fast food every night. okay. Hal Herring (01:53:58.67) Yeah. I know Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:54:03.539) Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:54:19.745) We're on board. But then the next question is, as everyone's looking around at each other, now what? And We we're gonna seek out something to do with our time, right? And it's sure some of it's gonna go to reading more books and planting a garden and and all those wholesome all those wholesome things, but you're still gonna need something for those people to do and and the public lands provide that free, you know, the cost of gas and getting there and maybe a few few hundred bucks on some hiking boots and you got a place to go and and enjoy find true enjoyment. Hal Herring (01:54:35.888) That's the ideal. Hal Herring (01:54:44.783) Mm. Hal Herring (01:54:48.187) Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:54:58.369) that anyone anyone can can have. And I think that's where the value of public lands and the value of a better life as Americans, something better to aspire to, go hand in hand. Nicolas Lirio (01:55:12.391) Man. Well, Hal, before we go, if people are like psh, I gotta read or listen to more of this guy, where can they find ya? Hal Herring (01:55:20.668) Well, I have a website that hadn't been updated since I started this book. But you I I really ask of people to come and check out the new podcast which is called Carrying the Fire. I have two hundred and twenty-five episodes of the Backcountry Hunters and Anglers podcast behind me before I started this one. And I would I would love it if people were listening to some of that stuff. Doug Brinkley, the America's greatest historian, is on there. Yvonne Shenard from Patagonia. I have Trappers. you know, some of the best elk hunters in the West are on there, Trey Curtis. Kent Boucher (01:55:40.013) Mm-hmm. Kent Boucher (01:56:00.545) Yeah. Hal Herring (01:56:00.569) If you're interested in elk hunting at all, the Trey Curtis podcast at Backcountry Hunters and Anglers is probably my high water mark for a person who knows more about elk hunting than anybody else. and it goes all the way back to like Lamar Marshall, who is a conservation fighter in Alabama, who is a trapper and Kent Boucher (01:56:09.773) That's awesome. Hal Herring (01:56:19.696) He was like lived way out in the middle of nowhere off grid and ended up in this big battle over the national forest, you know. And there's a long story to that. And and these I'm really, really hope people will still be listening to those. And then come to the new one. I've I've got Peter Stark on there on the Coronado expedition for my first one. yeah, he's a he's a very knowledgeable guy. Yeah. Yep. Kent Boucher (01:56:40.277) Yeah, I'm I'm listening to that one right now. It's it's very good. Yeah, and he laughs a lot. I like that about him. Nicolas Lirio (01:56:48.925) Yeah. And there's something beautiful Hal Herring (01:56:49.594) We're really happy 'cause he finished the book. Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:56:51.755) Yeah. He's still riding the high. But you got you got a book coming out yourself here soon, right? When's when's the release when's the release date? Okay. Nicolas Lirio (01:56:54.931) There there's something beautiful about Yeah. Hal Herring (01:56:59.886) I do. twenty it's it's next year and so we're we're working on the edits now and I'm working on the last chapter now. Kent Boucher (01:57:08.961) Well, I'm looking forward to an autograph copy here soon. Hal Herring (01:57:12.26) You'll get it. You'll get it. Nicholas, what were you g y you had something there? I was Nicolas Lirio (01:57:16.947) Well, I was just I I really like the the podcast y you're starting, like the whole idea between bet behind lost knowledge and keeping it going. I think about that all the time. Like, man, how much lost knowledge do we have on on how to steward the land or you know, even how to like make soap. You know what I mean? It's like that was a household thing that everybody knew and now nobody knows how to do it. Hal Herring (01:57:26.789) Yeah. Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:57:29.975) Yeah. On our own farm. Hal Herring (01:57:34.897) Yeah. Hal Herring (01:57:38.832) Yeah. Right. Hal Herring (01:57:43.684) Right. Well Nicolas Lirio (01:57:44.527) It it j that kind of stuff. I that really fascinates me and I think I think it's important. I it is very important. Progress is very important and just as important is we need to collect the things we learned along the way, otherwise we'll end up having a king that bans people from hunting in the in his deer forest again here in America. We gotta collect those old those old stories, and I think you tell those stories really, really well. So Hal, thank you so much for joining and everyone I mean, this will not get solved. Hal Herring (01:58:01.028) Ye that's right. Right. Right. Nicolas Lirio (01:58:11.668) Purely by the government. It's not gonna get solved just by just by people hooting and hollering. It starts with you, it starts with me because conservation happens one mind at a time. Man, how that was so amazing. Kent Boucher (01:58:27.502) Yeah, that was great. Hal Herring (01:58:27.527) Thank you, man.