Pierce Nelles (0:00)
My name's Pierce Nellis. I'm the marketing manager for Hoxie Native Seeds and this is the Prairie Farm Podcast. I'm Mark Kenyon. I'm Dr. Julie Mechan. I'm Steve Me. Hansen, I'm Jill Bebout, Chad Gravy, my name is Jeremy French, Laura Walter, Carol Hoxbergen, owner of Hoxie Native Seeds, and this is the Prairie Farm Podcast. This is Hal Herring, Back Country Hunters and Anglers Podcast. Skip Sly, Iowa Whitale, Valerie Van Coten, State Historical Society of Iowa.

Pierce Nelles (0:29)
Matt Helmer from Iowa State University. My name's Kyle Laubarger with Project. I'm Judd McCullum. I appeared out of the wilderness and this is the Prairie Farm Podcast. They

Nicolas Lirio (0:38)
Welcome to the Prairie Farm Podcast. I want to tell you a little story about my wife and I. Several years ago, we found out that our insurance company was literally spending millions of dollars lobbying against conservation in our state and our federal level. And when we found this out, we said, uh-uh. And we decided right then we were gonna get a new insurance company. And that brought us to McKay Insurance. Now, if you know me, you know that I'm pretty thorough when I make some of these decisions. And I looked for through a bunch of different agencies and they seemed great. But McKay Insurance stood out because of the people that I met there. They were wonderful. One of their agents actually went through the whole rigmarole to set us up with insurance that she and the agency didn't get a cut of. They just wanted to make sure that we were insured. Whether you're needing life insurance, health insurance, car, home, and auto, reach out to McKay Insurance. They will get you taken care of. If you are tired of your insurance company. lobbying against you go to mcins agency.com. Welcome. Welcome to team Pierce. First week. Was it how it was a little chaotic? Mm. Thanks, buddy.

Pierce Nelles (1:49)
But yeah, no, we're getting our bearings, feeling good and stoked to be here, man. Just a claw just blew my mind. I've been using it for a while. And I literally so we're working on the blueprints for the mezzanine. Yeah. And I was like trying to get it was insane. And I was like, Hey, can you drop the blueprints of that? And it did. I gave a bunch of details and then And then I literally said Pulled that sandwich right out of his kid's mouth. No look, it was either blueprints from Claude or I made it on Canva with the crayons. So no no architect was gonna be fired no matter what. So don't go on our mezzanine. But but then I said, hey, like all those toolboxes and stuff, I wanna be able to drag those around. And so it literally didn't just make the picture, it adjusted the picture so that I could like I had all the

Nicolas Lirio (2:48)
toolboxes and all their measurements and I could literally just like drag each thing around to fit somewhere in the mezzanine. It was cra and it did it in like twenty seconds. Man, it's just crazy to me how people like different things. Everything you just said, I would hate. That'd be like I'd hate to have to do that kind of work. I'd much rather go change a chain on something. Yeah, that doesn't get you.

Nicolas Lirio (3:10)
Well speaking of being outside, marketing manager, a new title for you. But really you your your title involves trout and it has for many years. It does. Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm an independent fly fishing guide in the the driftless region of Wisconsin. might dabble in northeast Iowa. We'll see. We'll see. Do you have to have a guide license? In Iowa I don't think you do. In Wisconsin you do. Really? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. What is what what's guiding in Wisconsin for trout fish, which is like one of the like there's different pinnacles of fishing that I understand. This is what Frank was telling me, Travis Frank. He's like, look, there's different like pinnacles depending on what kind of fishing like and trout's kind of for its sphere of fishing is like the kind of fishing.

Pierce Nelles (3:54)
It's pretty fun, man. And and fly fishing's in a cool state right now where we're we're seeing a big expansion into more warm water species. So like out of Madison we've got the Musky Fool fly shop, which specializes in throwing big like I mean, six to fourteen inch plus, maybe even twenty inch flies. kind of like traditionally people think when they think of fly fishing, it's a lot of times it's trout or it's, you know, potentially like doing some saltwater stuff like bone fish or tarpon or Species that have been fished for for for a long time. But now we're starting to see a lot of smallmouth guides pop up around the Midwest 'cause we've got I mean, Wisconsin we're kinda spoiled rotten with you know, if whatever species you want to throw at in freshwater, you can do it. Just within driving distance of I mean, most towns. I mean, you put three hours behind the windshield on and you can pretty much find anything in freshwater, right? Wow. So they're very fortunate there. But yeah, trout's my game and I specialize in kind of the southwest corner of Wisconsin there and Have you caught a muskie on a fly yet? I have not yet. No, that was the the goal for twenty twenty six and we went up north. I had big plans of doing so, and like literally forty five minutes into this trip, with my dad and I, he's in the back of the boat with like a spinning rod and like a little three inch Ripala, I don't know, and then all of a sudden there's big explosion next to the boat and I look down and I'm like, that looks like a pretty darn good sized fish and the thing gets up to the surface and rolls and I was like, You are joking.

Pierce Nelles (5:26)
That's a muskie. All right, great. So we netted that fish, took some pictures. Three hours later, maybe we have basically the same thing happen as we're about to head back to the cabin for lunch. My dad caught two muskies and one smallmouth all before launch on day one of our trip back in June. Copy.

Nicolas Lirio (5:44)
I'm I'm ignorant. I heard the word explosion and then I heard that the fish rolled over, which makes me think someone dropped dynamite in the water and like it like The exploded like like hit the lure right next to the boat, so there was like a big commotion from just like that fish darting after the lure and then they eat it and then they they'll dive down usually. Once they realize they're hooked, they try and get away. So then he was diving down next to the boat, and then we finally got him back up to the surface and then he rolled Two Muskies, which like you're supposed to catch maybe two Muskies in a week, you know, in most scenarios. Yeah, the fish at ten thousand casts. So your dad got two right away.

Kent Boucher (6:20)
So how many times did he have to cast that day? That is apparently twenty thousand. Yeah, your dad's got you what what is it like nineteen thousand nine hundred and ninety-eight casts ahead of him of that? No, no, he he took dead out on your name, all of your casts you've put out there. Okay, what's with what someone was telling me once, I think there's a fly fishing style for is it paddle fish? Like there's this whacked looking fish that's got like a paddle beak. Exactly, yeah. He just went into casting debt, that's what happened.

Pierce Nelles (6:39)
Exactly.

Pierce Nelles (6:49)
That's kind of a weird one, 'cause they're a filter feeder, right? And so basically and I don't I don't know the exact mechanics behind it, but essentially Pretty much, yeah. Or like I don't know if they're eating nymphs from aquatic insects. Yeah, that's snagging. Yeah.

Nicolas Lirio (6:59)
Like sucking a bunch of algae and then they

Kent Boucher (7:04)
One exactly. That sounds like a certain family I know at the Chinese buffet after church on Sunday. Okay, so they're filter fish. What is so is Who's gonna just hammer the plank? Yeah.

Pierce Nelles (7:25)
Basically they go r through the they just swim around a lake or a river. With their mouth open. Filter through And so essentially you'll cast out and then basically the way I understand it, you cast out and then you just like essentially rip the like your lure or your hook or whatever towards you so you hope that you it's it's effectively snagging is like the way I understand it. Right into their side.

Kent Boucher (7:48)
Yeah, so you're walking up to the the fo the the goons. You guys seen the mullet review guy on Reels, the guy who's going to as many Chinese buffets until he gets food poisoning? yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What n as many one star. So yeah. So if let's say you're go you're gooning, right? You're heading for the Rango, that's what he calls it. Whoa, we're gooning. That's a and then all of a sudden a fish hook hit you right in the love handle and like yanked you away from that's what's going on with Wait, you're literally just throwing out something with a hook, hoping that they put their mouth is it there's that magic. Is there a way that you can target chum or something behind the boat to like get him in

Pierce Nelles (8:27)
Most guys I've seen do it from shore, I think. So like the my understanding is you bomb a cast out as far as you possibly can. Just so many paddle fish in between them? I I have no idea. Yeah. Like it seems like Doctor me a little bit. But yeah, dude, I I have no idea. I mean I'm sure it'd be fun. I mean, that's a giant fish that's gonna fight like crazy. And plus they're like ancient fish, right? So they're like by default and That's what I to like that sounds like.

Nicolas Lirio (8:53)
Well that's what the guy was saying, they're one of the oldest fish alive. Yeah. You wanna know one of the most ridiculous things? I just went I just went fishing, trout fishing. And on one of my casts I'm not kidding you guys, I caught a rock. I caught an actual rock on a know how possible. Like I reeled in a rock. Not like I got a snag to broke my line. No, I dragged the rock in like you know, like that. I don't know how that's possible. Sounds like a Swatch Bob episode. Not like a

Pierce Nelles (9:23)
How big of a rock are we talking here? Tennis ball size? That's pretty good. I I just imagine like SpongeBob's going fishing with Patrick and SpongeBob gets a boot and Patrick's like, I'm really proud of my rock. I've never caught a boot. I did find once a really old shoe. I mean I'm talking hundred year old shoe when I was trout fishing once. It was like kind of like washed into the side of the bank. Like, what is that? Looks like leather. Sure enough it was. It was like it was like the sole of the of the shoe, yeah. It had like old nail holes in it and stuff. My dream is to so we would walk creeks in California. I don't wouldn't really do it here in Iowa. Like I think I've done it Well, in Illinois, I walked I mean kind of walked a creek with you and Judd. My dream is to walk a creek I've never walked before and find a giant sloth skull that's like my just to find something absolutely insane, like a fully a fully intact mummy. Well, you know, in a creek in Iowa. Say that to Jud.

Kent Boucher (10:22)
Yeah.

Kent Boucher (10:29)
We were supposed to go we were supposed to book a trout trip with Pierce for post harvest. But I would I would settle for a day of going and looking for like arrowheads We're still can I would

Pierce Nelles (10:43)
Like a rock hounding trip kind of. That sounds cheaper and much less enjoyable. man. That's funny. Okay, so so you're you're a trout guide, you do a trout guide. I before we actually get into trout, because I do want to talk about it. Well I have one more on the big fish, can I ask? A weird species. gar. Yeah. I've seen that there's like a I don't know, a a corner of the fishing world where people are are big into I think they it's called fly fishing for gar where they use. Totally they use like basically a rope. Yeah. Right? There's there's no hooks on it, but there's just so many like jagged sharp teeth in the gar, so they like think it's a fish, they bite it and their teeth get all tangled in the rope, then you just haul in. Yeah.

Pierce Nelles (11:28)
Yeah, 'cause they like gar aren't particularly selective feeders, right? Like they're kinda just snapping at minnows and whatever they can actually get into their mouths, right? But because they've got such a long pointy like beak for lack of a better term, like it's tough to get a hook into And flies typically, you know, they're made out of feathers or hair or whatever it is. So if they don't bite the hook itself, or at least get the hook hooked around their their jaw. Yeah, you're there's no c there's no corner hook in a gar pretty much. But like They usually you set the hook and it'll just like basically comb through their teeth and out comes the hook back towards you. But with the rope flies, you literally take like nylon rope and just unweave it and take like, you know, I don't know what you would take, but you know, something to pick at it and pick it apart and then you tie that I'm guessing that's a catch and kill. You better bring your play. Bring your pliers for sure 'cause like those things are nasty, dude. Like e even their scales, like when you pick one up, it's just it's armor. And it's I mean they'll sit there and

Kent Boucher (12:31)
I can't imagine getting it untangled. And then if you throw them back in the water, good luck. Your mouth is closed forever. Yeah, well that's that's kind of the thing.

Pierce Nelles (12:42)
Yeah, no, I've I've caught a handful of like on the Wisconsin River, smallmouth fishing and like been able to get a hook into and it's dicey, dude. You're always bleeding by the end of it. I caught a giant one on the Mississippi once and we had it up on the edge of the boat and we're we're like, all right, what now? Mm-hmm. And while we were we were deciding what what tool to get, that thing just did one big you know, like shake shook its head and the teeth just shredded that line. Sound crazy when you actually hook one and 'cause they'll jump and like gill rattle and you can hear them like like when they're actually I I never I never heard that, but I was so disappointed 'cause I wanted a picture with that thing. It was a true dinosaur. I mean it was huge. This was cool. I mean the Midwest, like you've got a whole bunch of like native species that are considered rough fish, right? Like I you look at your different sucker. Yeah, trash fish.

Kent Boucher (13:36)
I love Gar, I think they're so cool. Trash like it doesn't taste good or what qualifies the trash? yeah, they're they don't taste good and also it's just it's a buy catch. Like a gar is not I don't wanna say it's an easy fish to catch, but it's not it it's people look down their nose at That's a better way of putting it. They just they don't view it as a sport fish, which to me is dumb because they fight hard, they're they're big, you know, they're cool. At the bummer, how delicious bluegill are and how freaking tiny they are. I mean it's literally like two two or three bites.

Kent Boucher (14:09)
It's kinda it's kinda it's like it's kinda like cr crunchy Cheetos, you They never come they can't put those babies in a normal size bag or we'd all be think we got a fat America now. Imagine if we had ten pound bluegill and full size bags of Cheetos. Ha ha. my goodness, dude. I I'd I it I'd pay for bluegill at a restaurant. You know what I mean? Like I'd I'd I would but No, you'd have to farm I mean we basically have a farm of and it gets crazy out there. It's it's like it'll get to the point, you know, just every cast you're just pulling in a bluegill and it's like, what do you do with them? You know? And then you're trying to fry like fourteen bluegill just to get fourteen bites of a meal. Two hours to fillet a dozen of

Kent Boucher (14:55)
man. Okay, so trout. Mm hmm. I am very curious because Wisconsin does like a two week season and Iowa just keeps it open. No, Wisconsin's got they we open the first Saturday of January through the or October fifteenth every year. So we shut down for the basically the spawning period for brook and brown trout. They're fall spawners and then rainbow, which we don't have any native rainbow species around here. Technically the brown trout aren't native either, but they're in most cases wild. I thought maybe you were telling me that the first two weeks are the best two weeks of first two weeks of October are the best two weeks of the trout fishing. I might have been talking about deer with the first two weeks of November being the best for the that may have been it.

Nicolas Lirio (15:41)
maybe. When you're like in October, 'cause you were saying like as it gets colder, it's better. Yeah. but then I don't understand why Wisconsin would not allow people to fish after no October fifteenth and Iowa would. Yeah, so Wisconsin the water quality's a little bit higher there, which I know you guys have talked about. Rubbing in. Yeah. but it's also it's further north, right? So the water's gonna

Kent Boucher (16:09)
Well I'm a little bit better looking than you. But it's not it's no, no, no, no, I'm not no offense. But so like long story short, like trout get their I I don't wanna say mystique, but for lack of a better term, yeah, they're mystique because they are a good indicator of a healthy ecosystem. They require cold water, which is why in the driftless region we've got all these spring fed limestone streams that pump fifty two degree water out of the ground all year round. So in the dead of winter, fifty two degrees, in the heat of summer, wherever you're close to the spring head, it's gonna be fifty two degrees. Now the further you get from a spring head, the warmer, colder you're you're gonna experience that water. a lot of times the the habitat will start to decline and that's where you start getting, you know, a liquid of watershed. Most of in Wisconsin pump into either the Wisconsin River or the Mississippi River, same with Iowa, you know, I know there's different ones up there. But most of them lead to the Mississippi eventually and that's where you get your warmer water species. But trout being a cold water species, they require water less than seventy degrees for all intents and purposes, basically. Essentially it's for survival, like flat out survival. So the temp yeah, water temperature increases, particles per million of oxygen decreases. trout are very oxygen well, they have a high oxygen requirement just to survive. And so if you get into water that's too warm, they will literally just suffocate. you see out west you'll hear of hoodow regulations when it gets really, really hot or the water temperatures start to climb. Basically you don't wanna be fishing for trout.

Pierce Nelles (17:43)
during the heat or hottest part of the day because you're just putting too much stress on right? And so essentially it'd be like us going from here up to the, you know, top of Mount Rainier and then running a couple of hundred yard sprints and then somebody grabs us, dunks our head in a bucket of water. It's like, all right, good luck. We'd we'd have a tough time recovering from that, right? And so it's kind of a similar thing when we see those really hot days. in the summer, even around here or out west, wherever trout are living, you wanna always keep an eye on the water temperatures. then you know you're gonna That's fascinating. I mean this wasn't like a scientific study, but after we were we were talking on the phone and then you were like, Yeah, I went and measured the water temperature of But yeah, that was back in it was right before Labor Day, I think it was. We had some weird stint where it was like ninety some degrees for ten plus days. And in Driftless Region, most of our stuff runs our creeks run through private land, right? So whether it be ag properties or you know, pasture land. But a lot of them have, you know, over the course of an entire, you know, say you've got a nine mile stream, different sections of that will be different micro ecosystems essentially. You'll have your pastures and your prairie and stuff like that. And yeah, what I told you guys was I started with a client of mine. We were down in this prairie section. I took a temperature and I think it was

Pierce Nelles (19:06)
Like fifty nine or something like that at the bottom of this prairie section. As I got up to the pasture section, we bumped up there. Granted it was a couple hours later, so the temperature was increasing. But at Water temp is much less affected by that. Exactly. Yeah. As I got further up, about a quarter mile upstream into the pasture section, the bottom of this pasture section, it was three degrees warmer up there than it was at the bottom of the prairie section. So that's kind of the Remember how much prairie? Was it just like a couple acres? It was like a big old field. It was a big feature.

Kent Boucher (19:43)
Underwater cool. Fawn mix. Trout Prairie is perfect habitat for trout Dude actually Pierce you spent all day putting our mixes that I've been meaning to put on the website for months and months, finally on the website. Things like the clay buster to because we get called all the time like, Hey, have soil that's really clay, you know, and trying to get that kind of stuff on there. But so I trout I do not understand the appeal, you know, of fishing trout. Yeah. What what are people doing and why are they doing that? So they eat aquatic insects for the as their primary food source. So that means like with fly fishing, we're we're taking lures that imitate a a living insect, which in the Midwest, most of those insects are very small. And so in order to deliver a a nearly weightless fly, you need you can't do it on a regular spinning rod or a bait caster, right? Because you'd never be able to flex that rod enough to actually shoot your fly all the way out there. So fly fishing. essentially is the inverse of spinning or bait casting. So rather than having a heavy lure with near weightless line, you've got a near weightless lure with a weighted

Kent Boucher (20:57)
Done the cheat I've done the cheater fly fishing. Yeah. What is that? What is that? Let's let Pierce tell us what cheater fly fishing were. the plastic bubbles.

Pierce Nelles (21:11)
Yeah, the work though. Bob. Bob bobber with you know, you tie it well it twists on. It's like a rubber band it's like a hollow rubber band and you can pull the caps off of each end and then you can spin the the bubble in or bobber is really what it functions as. And it functions as bobber and weight. If you need a little bit more weight to get your fly out there further, you let that bobber fill up with water and then you have your fly tied, I don't know, three, four feet down from that bobber and then You know. Which I mean yeah, you're doing it on a spinning rod, but at the same time, it works much

Kent Boucher (21:48)
They're better on like a lake. Yeah. So I that's where I've done it, is like cold water lakes out west. Definitely. But I mean there's bobber fishing in in fly fishing too. Just do it with little nymphs and you know everybody's like, it's an indicator, not a bobber. We're fly fish They're all bobbers. It's it's yeah. Yeah. That's how you know you're talking. Indicating my goodness. So what what's the difference then in stream fishing and lake fishing? I'm asking all the dumb questions because I am dumb.

Pierce Nelles (22:07)
Yeah, these strike. Come on. Yeah.

Pierce Nelles (22:19)
No, it's n not not a dumb question at all. So most of the the lakes we have in the Midwest, they they get too hot to actually support fish. You can stock fish. A lot of like the IODNR I know they'll stock a bunch of rainbows in different ponds and stuff. But over the course of a summer, those the water temperature is gonna increase. We all have seen the algae blooms and stuff like that. Water quality is just not what they need to actually survive year round. in a stream though, you've got, like I mentioned, they're a high they have a high oxygen requirement. In a stream, you've got moving water. That's going to be moving colder water downstream. And then you've also got different features within a stream that will create, you know, different turbulence and stuff like that and essentially aerate the water. so trout, when they're in stream, they're always facing upstream because that's essentially it it's just one giant conveyor belt of food and oxygen where they can sit there and, you know, tuck in behind a rock, conserve a little energy, and just watch for insects or leeches or scuds or food or anything like that to come downstream and then they can dart out. Grab a bite to eat and go back to eating or work to heard that they they feed into the current. Yes. So you you always want to cast up current and and let your fly or deceive a lot are those inline spinners. Like totally like a little rooster tail. which is hard because you know you really gotta be cranking it just you know dropping and tumbling. Yep. But that is true. They're used to

Pierce Nelles (23:41)
You gotta keep up with it.

Pierce Nelles (23:46)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. They're they're you What about is I mean, is it ever a a tactic to go against the current? Totally. Yeah. So so with spinners or even if you threw like I know guys who throw like three, four inch rappalas too under just trying to weed out the small fish and get a big one, which it it does work. Like they get pretty angry, especially with a rapala that just like pumps out vibration. Yeah. You will move some big fish, as much as I hate to admit it. But if you're a a purist fly fisherman, if you're a true purist, you probably won't even throw streamers. But streamers are basically just big flies that imitate a bait fish or a leech or a baby trout or just some sort of high protein swimming meal. and those you can fish upstream and then kind of like he said, you gotta just sort of burn them back to you so that you can keep up with them. Or the easier way to do it is to cast essentially down and across or across and basically like the current, they call it swinging streamers. Let it swing down below and then you're stripping or pulling the line back. So you're moving and animating that fly as it's essentially coming back towards you. downstream. And that's also super effective. Like a a lot of times, like regardless of where you're looking on a stream, my rule of thumb is always like show the profile of whatever it is that you're throwing to that fish. Don't let see it totally head on or like running straight away from Like give the whole side of it so they can identify it and say, That's something I want to eat. Boom.

Kent Boucher (25:08)
So they truly are site predators. yeah, yeah. Hmm. Yeah. That's interesting. Sight and f honestly I would say feel more than sight even. Because a lot of times like vibration. It vibrations everything. Yeah. I've never used a rattle trap, no, but I I have used like like I said, little rapala's and stuff like that. but What was that other one? Wasn't there one called a shaky head or something like that? You ever use that? Yeah. yeah, shaky head minnow, yeah. I've never used one of them. No, no. I so I I got like I started trout fishing. I I mean I had a buddy who was he went to UW Plattville and he was an intern for Trout Unlimited and the DNR. So he did stream shocking all throughout college, all s all summer long. So he'd send me pictures of, we shocked four hundred trout out of this little like, you know, three hundred yard stretch or something like that. Or you know, we shocked, you know, this an eighteen inch brown just like our average fish in the driftless regions like Eight to twelve inches, right? Anything beyond like twelve.

Kent Boucher (26:01)
I'm feeling a lot better about that boy. You caught it was big. Like that's like a solid fish. Anything like twelve to fifteen is like a good fish. Fifteen and up is big. I am the correct person to brag to about that. I give you lots of stats How d how did you instantly know I didn't know what I was doing? Pierce, you can go ahead and well if you hold your thumb up, you should still have a little bit of looks like you ran o over a cheese grater there. Yeah, you don't wanna lip a trout there.

Nicolas Lirio (26:28)
yeah, dude. I remember you. Kim was like, dude, I shredded my thumb on this giant trout. And then I he we pulled up the picture. And now that I'm talking to you, it was a big trout. But also trout aren't that big, so I'm thinking like Iowa pond bass. And he's like, look at this giant trout, and it's like four inches, you know? And he's like, it was not a I've got I've got Cav.

Pierce Nelles (26:52)
Like fourteen, yeah, fourteen to sixteen for sure. That was a thick fish. My biggest is like twenty-three. yeah, I that was stream. Yeah, broke every rule in the book. So trout hate bright light, and this fish ate in early October on a bluebird sunny day at eleven thirty in the morning, and he ate like a four inch streamer. Like just he's an RP. What's like a monster? What's the biggest you ever caught? okay, never mind. Lake or stream?

Nicolas Lirio (27:19)
They're literally like, What can we write in this report to make sure that people aren't there when we want to be catching the giant fish? That's what's going on. That's not true, right? I've I've seen that though where I've been at a good a good trout hole and you'll see like a couple of big fish just hanging down in the bottom and you I mean you could throw a flamignon steak down there and they ain't moving. They're just not You can see that fish, that fish has already seen you fifteen minutes ago and he is not So that's why they're not Yeah. I figured it was just they're not hungry. No, no, literally I mean that could be it too, but like if if they s have it a an opportunistic meal available to them, like they're trying to survive, right? No, there's like debate

Kent Boucher (28:07)
the fish aren't biting. That's that's You're doing something wrong. Yeah. Either it's either you got the wrong fly. It's the the condition. I mean, barometric pressure throws a big wrench in things too. Like low clear water is the worst conditions you can possibly have for trout. Like low clear water and like a bluebird sunny day, trout are I I always joke, I say like they're like super self conscious. They don't want anybody to see them, right? Because if you're a heron, if you're an eagle, if you're a a fisherman and you can see the fish sitting right there, like Yeah.

Pierce Nelles (28:38)
it's a pretty easy meal, right? And so the the best, you know, ideal like beach weather is horrible trout fishing weather. Like if you can get an overcast, drizzly day that's got just enough rain to kind of dimple the water, That's like the exact conditions I just caught that fish. Yep, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And so you can have some really, really good days you know doing that because the fish they'll they'll spread out so they won't just gravitate to like I'm gonna hide out either under an undercut bank where nobody can see me or I'm gonna glue myself to the bottom of the clearest or of the deepest, you know, darkest hole I can find in the stream and just wait here until nightfall or dawn or dusk, right? That's why those are such good fishing times. It's 'cause the light phase is kind of shifting there. But So so th the Iowa stocks fish, is that like stalking birds? Because i it doesn't matter how much you stock birds, you like good luck getting any percentage of to stick around. You know what I mean? That It depends on the stream, right? And so like Iowa does have a pretty strong stocking program. And I I'd I would love to talk to a a fisheries biologist. We stock a handful of streams. So we've got class one, two, and three

Kent Boucher (29:40)
Wisconsin do anything like that?

Pierce Nelles (29:48)
It's they're I don't want to say they're proud of it, but they they are very, very public about their stocking program. And part of it's because a lot of the streams they they just whether it be from, you know, poor water quality or increasing temperatures and just habitat Yeah, whether they're proud of it or not, it just seems like they do a ton of stock. Yeah, yeah. And I I'm I've got my own theories on that, on whether or not they're just they do that to try and get people more interested in trout or get people to care more about trout by by stocking a bunch of fish. But like they've also got really cool programs too where they I know they take hatchery fish or they take roe and they can actually give to like a high school or middle school biology class and they raise the fry essentially. and then It's not a bad strategy.

Pierce Nelles (30:32)
those fry get stocked and released into a a watershed that they're trying to repopulate with native brook trout. So across the Midwest, like n brook trout are the native fish in Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin. the brown trout are they're most of them that you'll find now they're all wild, but they were stocked at one point. Like the German tr like the brown trout is a German strain originally that's been normalized across, you know, I mean a lot of the world at this point, honestly. It's technically invasive. Well Wild. They're not even like out west where you catch browns. They're they're not native out. No. Now out west you've got the native cutthroat and you've got rainbow trout out over on the the west coast. Yep. But

Nicolas Lirio (31:12)
Yeah. What I mean by invasive is like pheasants are not native, but they're not invasive. They're not gonna come in and wreck Essentially like that. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So invasives they're yeah, they won't wreck habitat per se. However, they will in certain streams where you've got brook and brown trout, the brown trout will out compete a brook trout. Wow. And so a lot of times you yeah, I know Iowa for a fact and Wisconsin does it too, they'll do like brown trout relocation surveys where they'll go in and they'll shock streams or they'll even encourage people to like yeah, keep fish. Still s the does Iowa still stock Browns? I don't know about that. I know it's Imagine they do because they they don't naturally reproduce in in Iowa water. I think they do on I think they do on occasion.

Pierce Nelles (31:56)
Again, it's got it right, it's gotta be the right conditions for So I know further north there they'll they'll be again, it depends on on where in the water shed they are and what the water quality is around that. Definitely stock rainbows. Yeah, yeah, and rainbows, I mean those things are yeah, I've got Okay, so I a I got a theory on that that I want to run by you. Yeah. When I'm when I'm choosing my inline spinner, 'cause I cannot fly fish. In fact, I I don't think I've ever tried to cast a fly rod. My dad had one when I was a kid, but I never used Yeah, I'd love to learn. I always think like, is it pointless in Iowa waters to get like a I love the little Thomas cyclones. I'll corrupt ya.

Nicolas Lirio (32:33)
Ha ha.

Kent Boucher (32:45)
It's like a really old lure company. Mm-hmm. And they're just little spoons is all they are. they work. Yeah. but they make some that are patterned like a rainbow, like a small rainbow. Is that pointless to use? No, because these fish are never encounter encountering a small rainbow trout. No, no, they don't care. They care about the vibration and the size of the meal and how how it's being moved, right? So like rule of thumb, regardless, yes. Like like I always say like bright fly, bright conditions, dark fly, dark conditions. Or if you've got high muddy water, throw something black 'cause they can actually see the profile of that better than they can like a bright white or a chartreuse or something like that. I don't know what it is exactly, but the color gets kind of washed out. Yeah, exactly. Right. Color matters to some degree, right? To a degree.

Pierce Nelles (33:33)
But yeah, like clear water and stuff, like bright day, a lot of times I'm like if it's a sunny day, keep it like silver if you're throwing spinners or like, you know, gold even something flashy kinda in their face, or like a white if you're throwing streamers. If it's kind of I don't know, like I guess average conditions or something, you can always go to like a more natural look. So if you've got a spinner that's maybe I don't know, like something with some olive or potentially even like a little bit of black, but it's got some gold with it too or yellow. That's gonna kind of give it the contrast, but also not look so in their face that they're like, my God, what is that? Yeah. but then when it's dark out, or like you've got high muddy water, so you know, throwing black, brown, or bigger flies or lures that are gonna put out a lot of vibration. Cause they've got a Man, I'm gonna re listen to this part of this podcast five times, take notes. Yeah. But you've got like on all fish they've got a lateral line. And so that I'm sure you've seen it on, you know, even bluegills or bats, it's kinda cool too. If you pick up different species and you look at that it's just a line in their scales that goes from behind their gill plate all the way down to the start. but they

Kent Boucher (34:40)
Isn't it part of their nervous system?

Kent Boucher (34:48)
Can you imagine having that sensitive of like a a sensory organ that body just like get punched right there? You're entirely

Pierce Nelles (34:58)
But they I mean they can they use that to sense vibration from like other fish, from things hitting the water and like also from danger along the bank. So like when you're trout fishing, if you're gonna like approach a hole or anything, like if you're coming at it from above or you're trying to like sneak up on on these fish, always be mindful of your shadow and be mindful of like how heavy your footfall is on the bank. Now there's some debate that if you're fishing in a pass Skinny guys are they got all the advantages of fishing too. Ha ha ha. There's some debate though that like if you're in a pasture where there's a bunch of cattle, they're they get desensitized to having fifteen pound, hundred pound animals trompling along. Anecdotally agree with that.

Pierce Nelles (35:39)
I think they're just as spooky personally, but I mean, what do I know? Yeah, yeah. D what I think is so amazing about trout fishing, especially in the Midwest, is that it's like so much of fishing in Iowa is just a man made experience. And to some degree that you know, we have the trout hatcheries, which I believe there's are there two or three in Iowa. There's the one in declara, one in Manchester. Is is the one in Guttenberg is that I know that's right on the Mississippi, so it might I don't know if they do trout there or Sure. But no. So in a way it is a man made experience. However, you're fishing native waters. You know what I mean? As far as this is what the land gave us. They these little spring fed creeks. And so you're in you're interacting with Iowa as she is, right? And I like that be and I like the adventure of it that you're constantly I mean, it's hiking too, right? Yep. you you can walk along the bank, I suppose if you have some waiters or

Kent Boucher (36:43)
if it's in the middle of the summer and it's it's a warm day you could get in the water and walk through the water too. Totally. And there's just like more It's not a static type of fish. Yeah, exactly. It's a more interactive type type of experience. You're covering ground like each little section of the creek is its own little puzzle. It's not like you're standing on the dock and you're just yeah spraying and praying, right? Yeah, and I think I th I don't know, I just I like I like that a lot about it. Yeah. I and it's y it's however you wanna do it, right? If you wanna throw spinners, great. If you wanna throw streamers, great. If you want a nymph or th like a lot of times we'll do a dry drop or we call it where you've got a like a foam beetle or like terrestrial insect, anything that you grows on lives on land and then falls into the water, like we'll throw those and then off the bend of that hook we'll have twelve to eighteen inches of tippet material and then a nymph down below. So you give the fish the option I can eat, you know, what's in my face 'cause at the end of the day, eighty plus percent of the fish's diet is subsurface, right? But you get those squirrely fish that do wanna eat something big and aggressive that happens to splat on the water. Or you can be a dry fly purist and throw only hand tied naturally or like natural material dry flies and try and fool the trout that way and make him come up and eat. Yeah. And yeah, it's you g i you can be as as into the weeds as you want to with this, right?

Kent Boucher (38:10)
Tinker. Exactly. Yeah, dude. The the monotony of it. But I don't understand like Monotony of it. I don't think there's monotony in it. It's like or her musky fishing for that matter. Well the like to me it's like

Nicolas Lirio (38:26)
Yeah, tiny little details. Actually it does sound it does sound like a lot of fun. Smooth.

Kent Boucher (38:38)
I think you would actually enjoy it because you're interacting more with the land. Like you gotta you're like you're like especially if you're in the heart of the driftless man, there's like, you know, s bluffs and stone cliffs that you're next to and you you gotta like, you know, duck around tree branches it's tight quarters. It's I think I don't know, I think it's I think Hunter, I was just gonna

Nicolas Lirio (38:59)
Kent's trying to sell us on doing a trout fishing trip as a as a as a group. okay, I got a question for you. Friends, the prairie's getting tall. It's getting time. The birds are a whistling and a chirpin. And that means it is almost hunting season. So if you enjoy walking through the tall grass, pulling ticks off of yourself, and hanging out with your dogs, we highly recommend going to birdhuntersupply.com. Now, I understand if you want to be out on the landscape, you don't necessarily want to just hang out on a website. But Dr. Russ Benedict was correct when he said the prairie was actually a very adverse place, and we need to be prepared. So prepare yourself for your hunting season, your trail walking season, and your bird dog hunting season at birdhuntersupply.com. They've got everything you need for yourself on the bird hunting and everything you need for your bird dog. We highly recommend the assortment of equipment. That they provide on there is extensive and far above my head, but they have exactly what you need. Not only will they take care of you in that, but they actually help take care of the land as well. When I was talking to the owners, they said we actually donate a certain amount of money to conservation every single year. And I asked them, do you have a donation button at the end where people can donate when they check out, which is really common? And he said, No, we actually donate from our profit. So they literally take their earned profits. And donate that to conservation efforts because they care. They want to see the landscape have habitat and stay healthy for future generations. Highly, highly recommend birdhuntersupply.com. How do you learn enough of this where you go, Yeah, people would pay me for that? You know what I mean? Like because the confidence that it would take. Because people aren't gonna catch fish every time. So you have to be confident enough to be like, well, look, it it Yeah.

Nicolas Lirio (40:49)
It ain't me. Because you know, I I know my stuff and you know what I mean? How how do you get there? That's a big question, Nick. Never ha you ever Do you ever have clients that don't catch anything? I haven't had one of them in four years probably. Man. Yeah. Pressure's

Nicolas Lirio (41:06)
We do this trip. You know what? You know what? Yeah, I I try and I I say that with as little ego behind it as possible, but I I do pride myself. I started as a casting instructor and on top of it, like I'm I'm self-taught. So I've made every mistake in the book and had to figure things out for myself over the course of the Your casting instructor bona fides a little bit. With the Orvis, right? Yeah, so I I'm a Yes, yep. So I I've I got my start with Orvis just after COVID, working in retail and then make it or made the the switch to we've got a fishing school over in Johnson Creek, Wisconsin where we do one and two day schools, basically one day schools we dive into all the the terminal side of fly fishing and understanding like this is how a fly line works and why You know, a tapered line is more important than a level line and like how essentially just what the mechanics are behind like how do I pick up a fly rod and actually like make it shoot line out twenty five feet in front of me, right? And that's our goal for the day. And we do some fishing and practice casting on water. And then the day two is more diving.

Pierce Nelles (42:20)
the driftless, I would say like the edge of that on the east side is probably like, I don't know, half hour west of Madison, twenty five minutes west of Madison or so. but our two day school or on the day two, then we focus more on like these are the insects 'cause the insects are gonna differ depending on where you're at in the country, right? Like we've got if you drive two hours north to central Wisconsin or even like western Michigan, there's a big hex hatch, which is like a giant mayfly that's like we get them on the Mississippi too, but like a big two inch mayfly. The hatch at night. big brown trout come out because it's just like giant meal for them and they can just gorge themselves. But like in the driftless region, most of our f bugs are, if you're looking at hook size, it's like a size 18 or 16 to 20 really. And so with hook size, the higher the number, the smaller it is. Size 20, I wish I had one on my hat or out in the truck or something like that. It's like, I mean, that big. It is super, super small. All of our bugs. So like good rule of thumb, if you are gonna fly fish the driftless is Just because you can't see it doesn't mean the fish can't see it. And you'll be amazed at how well these trout can see. Wow. but to answer your question, you know, is just kind of that. And I've always loved coaching, right? And like I I like seeing things click for other people. I get a lot of reward out of that. And so when I can kind of take that, take my knowledge of not only the streams that I've spent over a decade exploring, then combine that with. casting instruction and guidance and get other people to care about this resource and, you know, appreciate all the unique things of these little tiny fish. 'Cause even if they are like six inch fish, I mean a lot of times a six inch fish is the prettiest fish that you'll catch all day. Well 'cause they've got the you know, the younger colors and everything, super bright yellow bellies and I love fifteen plus inch fish too, when they get all colored up this time of year when they're getting ready to spawn too. But I mean Each fish, their markings are like a fingerprint, right? Like they're all unique. They never look the same. It's not like a bluegill where all of them have the same you'll tell it's a brown trout or a brook trout, but it it's they're all unique in their own special way. They all behave kind of differently. you can cast over one spot and pick through it with nymphs, and then you'll be just about ready to move on and you'll get one random fish that just wants to explode and eat a dry fly, or like a big grasshopper pattern or something. So it's it's super unique, but I guess

Pierce Nelles (44:41)
It was the casting instruction that led me to want to become a guide. 'Cause the casting instruction, like y as long as you can get people to cast and that's the thing too, like in the Driftless region, our streams are small. Right. Like I was telling Nick earlier today, most of are as wide as a sidewalk to as wide as like a city street. You know? I they're they're not big streams. So a lot of It's like it would be fly fishing on hard mode. It's honestly I I would argue the opposite. Like if you can if you can make a I would think a I would think a lake would be way easier. Well yeah, I mean from a snagging standpoint, yeah. But at the same time, like most of the cast like I would say like eighty percent of the fish that we catch are within twenty five feet of us.

Kent Boucher (45:20)
I see. You're you're looking at it as You don't have to cast as far. Correct. Yep. Exactly. And most of your casts are landing where there's fish. Right. Exactly. Well not even that 'cause I mean you do have to there is some nuance to it where it's like if you're six inches to the right and you're not in that current seam, they'll snub you and, you know, won't do anything for you the entire day. So you do have to kinda like find those feeding lanes and be able to read the water a bit. but all that comes with time and that's, you know, why you hire a guide, right? Especially if you're new to it or if you want to learn a fishery like this.

Pierce Nelles (45:50)
There's a lot of nuance to it. It can but again, it can be as complicated or as simple as you want it to be, right? It's all depending on what style of fisherman you are and So what what what are like when you first started, you had your own business, you had which is like so customer results driven right at the beginning, you know, face to face. They can you can feel their energy if they're having if they're pissed, you know, it's like totally it's like being a server at a restaurant, you know. It's but what like so what the first year I mean I sucked at this job my first couple of years. Like what what was that like for you? Terrifying.

Pierce Nelles (46:17)
Yeah, it's a service industry for sure.

Pierce Nelles (46:27)
think it's like anything. It's I don't think it's ever really as bad as you think. Like if you were somebody looking at it from the outside, but when you first start it, you're all self conscious and you you second guess yourself and you doubt yourself and you think that whoever you're with is seeing through, you know, the fact that, you know, they're paying you money to help them catch fish. And it it's terrifying, right? It is genuinely spooky because you're you're I mean, we're all good business practice practitioners here. Like we don't want to screw somebody over, right? So it's like I I want to make every single day and every experience for people the best that it possibly can be. and so yeah, like year one, it's spooky, right? Because you you think it's all results driven. But in the grand scheme of things, like over the past several years that I've been doing this, like one, like the program's gotten more and more dialed. Like I I've improved as a guide over the past several years. But also you do start to come to terms with like at the end of the day, it is fishing, right? And so you you have days that are great and you have other days that just plain suck. And I mean, not this year, but last year. I remember usually the first two weeks of October before the season ends, it it's prime time. And it was booked solid, was having a great season, and the conditions were like bluebird, sunny skies. We hadn't gotten rain for probably three weeks, and the fish were just pricks. Like they were they were not having I I yeah, I I don't sweet talk trout, sorry. Like you can tell when they're in a mood. And you know, it it's the kind of thing where you know you have to have some of those conversations. Like you're doing everything right. The fish just literally aren't biting. And you can obviously you do everything. You tailor the the tactic and you know your flies and what you're gonna throw to them and the way you approach each spot and you get angry Ha ha ha.

Nicolas Lirio (48:15)
Reviews when the people don't catch stuff? I have yet to. Yeah. Okay. All right. Well y I mean you're a n you're a nice guy, you're easy to be around, I bet that helps quite a bit. Are a lot of the people that book, are they out of towners that are Yeah, I've got a lot of clients from Chicagoland. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that's what I would say. Chicagoland. I mean I've yet to pull anyone from Iowa, I think. I had a couple from Texas earlier this year. That was super fun, but

Kent Boucher (48:36)
How do they put locals? I mean, do you get people that are living right there in Wisconsin? Like, you know, we got all this trout fishing around here like A handful of them, yeah.

Pierce Nelles (48:43)
Yeah, yeah, handful of them too. Yeah. I I kind of like I don't want to say a pigeonholed myself, but a little bit. But like I went to college in the west suburbs of Chicago and was very fortunate to have a fly shop. that I'm still very good friends with those guys to this day. over in Naperville, do page fly fishing. Go check if you're in the Chicago Land area. But great guys there. And so I I'll go down there, I'll do a fly tying class in the in the winters and I've done a couple of trout presentations there and there's a a sitka store over in Vernon Hills, Illinois that I've did a number of presentations at as well this year. And so I did all my marketing down there and then gas prices went up and then like I was like, shoot, I should have maybe done a little bit more closer to here, but that's yeah.

Kent Boucher (49:26)
I think you could do well by like advertising to companies. You know No, let's say you you know, you just finished up a busy season and you wanna do like a team building thing, everyone's having fun. Totally. And I've done yeah, a number of corporate

Pierce Nelles (49:40)
Yeah. Yeah, and and maybe someone on the team's already caught a monster trail. Exactly. Show you how to hold him either. Yeah, I I do think I think it would be a lot of fun. I think that like as a team going out, you know, and just learning how to trout fish would be a lot of fun. But Pierce was literally saying the worst conditions to be outside as a human are just the best trout fishing. Yeah and grey. If you think you'll be miserable, man, that'd be good. That's kind of outdoor.

Kent Boucher (50:08)
It's rainy.

Kent Boucher (50:14)
You're on work, so yeah. And most people around here love it. That's true. Yeah, the cold front. The famous cold front. Yeah. And that's not to say that they won't eat on a sunny day. Like y different seasons throughout the year. Like in the springtime we have our our we call it our hatch seasons. That's when you've got your Mayfly caddis and midges hatching pretty much daily as long as the conditions are right and those streams not totally blown out. even last year I had one day where it like I mean, the stream was probably up four or five feet and it was just it looked like chocolate milk and there was the thickest caddis hatch I saw all season long and there's just no way you can fish to those fish because like they can't they can't see a bug that's that big, right? but you know, you tailor your approach to imitate the nymph stage of a of a mayfly or a caddis or a midge during those portions of the day. And then once you see s start fish start to rise and everything, then you switch to dry flies or you know, whatever it may be. But then as we get into summer, we see more ants and beetles and grasshoppers start to come out and then all of them fall into the water. the course of the year. So like July July can be kind of a tough month because it is just the days are the longest. It's the hottest, like the trout are just kind of lethargic at that point. But when you start getting into late August, early September, and really on through the season, all those grasshoppers that were, you know, a half inch long for most of the year, all of a sudden they're like the size of your thumb and they land with a pretty big splat. And like the trout know that that's a pretty calorie dense meal for me. Sure. and so you know you can have a totally

Pierce Nelles (51:43)
super nice sunny pleasant day in September and be throwing big foam hopper patterns or beetle patterns or whatever and the fish will eat just fine on those too. Hoppers for trout. You know I have yet to try that, but they so that's another thing. They're the biggest fish are nocturnal feeders. So what else comes out at night? frogs. Right? You walk the stream you hear bloop, bloop all these fish jumping into the water. And so a lot of guys it's gained popularity. Eating frogs. They'll they'll eat in January too. I talked to a guy in the central part of Wisconsin, like the Central Sands region. They're eating wood frogs. As soon as it's above freezing and the frogs come out of hibernation, they caught a fish that had like the back legs of a wood frog still like in its mouth that was like halfway down its throat. Wow. And yeah, because it's it's just a high protein meal for right? Like if you're a big fish who is lethargic, 'cause in the winter they really only eat for like an hour and a half or so. And aside from that, they're just can like and that's during the warmest part of the day when their metabolism bumps just a smidge. But aside from that, like they glue themselves to the bottom or, you know, up under the bank and they just conserve energy until springtime comes and there's more food available to I something I don't understand from what you were talking about earlier is you so Iowa doesn't have as as quality of habitat just probably because of how much how little grassland we have and and and especially in driftless Wisconsin they can't farm as intensively out there so they've got Yeah and so and and so they've got if they have better trout numbers than we do naturally, why are we allowing fishing in seasons they don't allow?

Pierce Nelles (53:08)
More aggressive terrain for sure.

Nicolas Lirio (53:20)
Wisconsin. I think it's because of the stock. Because of the stocking essentially, yeah. So Wisconsin, we shut it down October fifteenth through the first Saturday of January to allow our Brook and Brown trout to spawn undisturbed. 'Cause they make rather than like I'm sure you've all seen like the big like crater looking like bluegill and bass beds and stuff, trout will make what's called a red where they basically take their tails and they clear off a bunch of silt from the gravel. So you've got these big bare patches of of gravel that like I mean they stick out like a sore thumb on our streams. and then the females come in and they go to lay their eggs and then the males are all over the females trying to, you know, fertilize those eggs and then the female backs out and then the males guard the fry, guard the nest. And so you get And that happens second half of October into November.

Pierce Nelles (54:06)
Yeah, yeah. And so you'll get these fish that are there to reproduce, right? And that's their primary concern is protect these babies and fend off any other fish that might try and fertilize these eggs. So you get fish that are super aggressive, just like you do when people fish spawning bass or bluegill or anything like that. You're dragging them off beds. in trout streams and like part of the region Wisconsin and you could argue whether it's water quality or whether it's because of this practice or whatever it may be. in Wisconsin, we shut the season down to prevent people from fishing to those fish, which would then expose those eggs or those baby trout to other fish coming in to eat them. Cause at the end of the day, like winter's coming, other fish are hungry, like, you know, i it's it's just nature at its core, right? You know, people want to survive or fish want to survive. but then you also don't want to have Anglers who most of our streams you do a lot of waiting. You don't want people to trump maybe misidentify a a red or just be like, nice. It's just a nice shallow spot here in this gravel, I'm just gonna cross here and then you're trampling eggs and stuff like that. Your population might suffer that way. But wouldn't that help Iowa not have to stalk if they more vulnerable times? Like if they stopped when Wisconsin stopped. So might as well let people fit If they were to shut it down.

Pierce Nelles (55:29)
I think there's a I think there's an element of that. Like at this point, like I I want to say it's too far gone, but like it's pretty dang hard to make a stream warmer, right? And to like improve the habitat. And there's obviously a bunch of restoration practice that can happen. You can do things to shore up the banks and prevent erosion so y the habitat stays better. You've got these deeper cuts and stuff into the ground, or you've got you know, just better plunge pools, like whatever it may be that like can help funnel water more, make it more oxygenated, better And essentially just be better suited towards keeping trout in there and alive. and so yeah, you can obviously do improvements. Are they going to make the water colder and make the water cleaner? That is dictated primarily by what's surrounding that area, right? We can do all the restoration work we want to do in a stream that's surrounded by a couple thousand acres of crops that all funnel down to that stream. But if that farmer's spraying pesticide or, you know, the topsoil all just flushes in there or whatever it may be, that stream's gonna either fill in with silt and then the rocky substrate that trout thrive in or that insects thrive in. That's not gonna be possible for it's just not gonna be suitable for them. Or you get algae blooms from fertilizer flowing in there, or you get, you know, excessive levels of nitrates or pesticide use that then kill off the the insect. That's been like a big point of contention and kind a t I guess talking point f in Wisconsin lately is like is increased pesticide use leading to fewer hatches over the course of a of a fishing season. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I I I don't understand why the DNR does what they do. Not like as an I don't understand they shouldn't be doing this. I literally don't know. And and even like things I thought about C W D and then we interviewed Jace and Jace was like, Let me give you some data. Let me let me tell you some points and I'm sure that that exists for trout. So is there a trout who what's like the biologist level in the DNR for Iowa that would oversee trout? So like one person that oversees all fish?

Pierce Nelles (57:37)
of times it's by county, because you're gonna have like in Wisconsin we've got over I mean we've got in in the state as a whole, we've got over thirteen thousand miles of trout stream. And then in in the driftless region alone, it's like sixty-five to like sixty five hundred to seven thousand miles of trout stream just in southwest Wisconsin. the same goes for Iowa. There's a lot of streams. And when you pull up a you know, go to the DNR map or pull up trout routes or onyx and you switch on the layer that's gonna show you what the where the fishable trout water is. It's a lot of water to cover for one guy. And a lot of these counties have you know, one fisheries biologist and maybe two and one will be like a lakes biologist and the other one will be an inland specialized like or an inland waters trout biologist, or fisheries biologist. And then that can dictate or be either trout or like in Wisconsin, I know Iowa as well, you've got like inland creeks that are technically like a cool water creek or a warm water creek that'll actually hold smallmouth in them. there's actually a lot of fun overlap and a good way to find really, really big trout is if you've got a a stream that holds smallmouth in the bottom of it and you've got trout further up where you figure out where that overlap is, you can 'cause big fish just want to eat high protein meal. Sure. And like all the suckers, the sculpins, the you know, the the trash fish. Yeah. the baby ones at least, like further down there, they'll move down into those l lower systems and just basically eat high protein meals. We actually in Wisconsin they did a a tagging survey. I'm waiting to hear the the data on it. But I I talked with one of the guys who's friends of the biologist up there. they shocked a twenty inch brown out of the Coon Creek watershed in like the lower stretch of it, basically trying to find these big fish, and they put location tags in these fish to see just what they do over the course of a year. Do they want like do they go further up into the headwaters so that they can contribute to spawning or do they just hang out down low and

Pierce Nelles (59:37)
Like essentially just like what do they do over the course of a year, right? They tagged one of these fish, twenty inch brown. The next day they checked it and he had swam nine miles upstream. Hmm. So they like was that just because he was like got handled and shocked and was like, Screw this, I'm out of here. I'm headed to the the headwaters where there's more food? Like I I don't know. I'm very curious to see what that data shows. Yeah.

Nicolas Lirio (1:00:02)
I would be fascinated to see that. Well, we don't actually have all time this evening, so we have to get boogie in here in a little bit. But before we do, two more things. One, you run the Wisconsin Sportsman, and I'm not the podcast, I'm not just trying to shout out for no reason. I'm I have a very specific question for you on this. Sure. Hunters and anglers, you've been doing this for years. Mm-hmm. What has the sentiment been on conservation as the years have gone on, or is there none? Is like As a whole, obviously there's people that are very passionate. We know hunters that are very passionate about it, but you are we're on the conservation and we do some hunting. You're in the hunting space and maybe some conservation on the side in terms of your podcast. I'm curious what the sentiment is in the hunting space specifically. Towards conservation as a whole. I I would say everybody these days is get it I I don't want to say everyone, but I I think the general trend that we're seeing is it's pro conservation. People are seeing public land yeah. People are seeing public lands under attack. public land over the last like public land hunting and fishing for that matter. like it that's another thing we didn't even touch on. It's like Iowa, it well, I guess I'll start with Wisconsin first. As long as you're standing in the water and your boots are wet, mm you know. Use common sense with this, but as long as you're in the water, you are on public ground. As long as you're within the high water mark and you can you are staying wet and you're not getting up on the bank, you can cut through private land. Now, again, if there's a big string of barbed wire and a big no trespassing sign, maybe don't do that. You know, right? That's probably not the best practice. Although a lot of times there's really big fish in there. But Could also be a really big dog or a bull or something. Is that

Kent Boucher (1:01:40)
So Wisconsin's called the wet feet law, right? D does Iowa have that? Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, they do not. So in Iowa, yeah, you have to be fishing in a a designated, you know, and they have easements too, right? So in Wisconsin you'll have an easement and y those usually are indicated by like a DNR fisheries sign or something or like a trout thing that'll have the regulations for that stretch of what your harvest limit is and all that. Usually if you see one of those and obviously double check it with trout routes or onyx or the gazetteer or there's a number of books out there that you know, show same for Iowa, that'll show easements and where the public access points are. but where there is an easement, it gives you I believe it's thirty three feet from the center line of the stream. so you can walk on the bank so you don't have to be in the water. I got a I got what you got. I got a great question for you. Would you so Iowa something that Iowa has that Wisconsin does not have is right to right to track retrieve. Would you trade the weapon? Right to retrieve, yeah.

Nicolas Lirio (1:02:41)
The wet foot. The right to retrieve law. man. Well let's say it this way, both states have to have one of those laws and the other one's given up. dude. If we're talking the number of deer hunters versus the number of trout anglers, I think we're gonna outnumber them in that regard. and be more on the side of right to retrieve. That would be That's tough though. I mean that shuts up so much water. Like and I I guide tech ninety nine percent of the water that I guide on is public, right? It's within an easement or it's in a public area that you know I I

Pierce Nelles (1:03:22)
There there's no secret spots anymore. People always want to know like, like this spot was a secret. People got bent out of shape when trout routes came out 'cause like, there's spot burning everything. No, this was all publicly available information. You just didn't know where to look for it. Well, same with Otics, right? Yeah. And so it's all How do you think they built their app? Higher Zeulin Pike. To go survey it out for. So yeah, I don't know. That's a tough one, man. I would I would love to see both in both states. That'd be lot more fun.

Nicolas Lirio (1:03:50)
Yeah, but I'd much rather have the right to retrieve. Yeah. Well I mean the sentiment too though is like as soon as and we see it with public land right now, right? The is if you can't access it or the the quality of it isn't what it maybe could be or it's not maintained properly. People don't have any stake in it, it just falls by the wayside and eventually it gets sold off. Right. And so I think we we run into the same issue in fishing and hunting, right? If the you know, we we don't have a law that allows us to access the stream bank. I'm not gonna care that the water quality sucks in Wisconsin because I can only fish this stretch anyways. So let's just focus on how can we improve this little stretch here when we could be four miles downstream from, I don't know, some big pig farm or, you know, who knows what Maybe somebody would just set up this enormo enormous cattle feedlot right next to let's say the state's you know last purest stretch of water. Yeah. Maybe something like that would happen.

Pierce Nelles (1:04:46)
I mean I I I literally lived it. Like when I was a kid, I th two years old, a mile and a half up the road from us, we had a manure truck tip over, dumped all the tank into the the stream. It killed off the entire watershed for I mean, at least fifteen miles. and it was years before it could even sustain life again. Right. So we had a I was fortunate we had a lady Sorry Right, yeah, right. And we had a lady who worked for the DNR that went to church with us and I'd, you know, being a little kid, I'd go down splash around in the stream and I had a little minnow net in a five gallon bucket and I'd flip over rocks and I all of a sudden I start seeing these crayfish. And so I'd start scooping up. And that was like my summer my summer task was every day I'd go down there, I'd flip rocks and I'd catch as many crayfish as I possibly could underneath the bridge and I'd fill up the five gallon bucket and I'd dump them all back and I'd go back the next day. And then I told the lady at church that and she was like, Really? Like they were invasive rusty crayfish. But she was like, Seriously like I'd We didn't think that that watershed could even support life still. And I was like, Well, that's cool. And, you know, didn't think anything of it at the time. But then the next year went to go do the same thing. All of a sudden there's these little tiny fish that are all kind of speckled and like modeled, modeled sculpins. They're darting around in between all the crayfish. Like, huh, so I start catching them. And I tell the lady at church, she's like, Okay, we're getting a biologist over there ASAP, 'cause that that's a really good sign that you've got a little bit of biodiversity starting to return to this fishery. Yeah. are like roaches, you know, like they're just wherever. Mud bugs. I I mean trout eat It's a yeah. Yeah. People people sleep on the crayfish for the crayfish patterns for trout. Trout big trout in particular mash crayfish. makes sense. But then like I remember third or fourth grade or something, I got off the bus after school and I there was a truck parked down by the bridge and I like, Well, what the heck's going on there? And it was

Pierce Nelles (1:06:35)
You know, some college interns who are shocking the stream to do a survey of it and so I got killing all my fish. Leave my crayfish alone. But I got to walk alongside the bank while they had the probes and I got to see shock the stream and all these white bellies and brown trout start, you know, coming out from underneath the grass and they let me get in the water afterwards and, you know, slap on the the tape measure and gather their data and then we threw all back and everything. No, so that's cool. That's it, you know. Yeah. Well I was not being f facetious earlier. There that literally happened in Iowa. Bloody Run, I think, wasn't it? Yeah. yeah. I think it was, yeah. That's a cool creek. That's a fun I don't know if you've ever been up there. That's North northeast, yeah.

Kent Boucher (1:07:16)
I've heard the nitrates though now are like insane. Yeah. And that's at least someone's making money, Pierce. Yeah. Like the sad thing. Yeah. Yeah, our state's economy's never been better. And you know, and and all that excess money we use and and so that we can stock fish and I'm not against stocking fish, but maybe we wouldn't have to if we would stop these agri losing businesses. the state the state tried to stop that feedlot and did not happen. the di the state did? you mean the people did?

Kent Boucher (1:07:47)
There's a yeah I believe definitely that, but I'm pretty sure I don't know if the I don't I don't wanna I don't wanna misspeak here. Okay. Yeah. when so so the sentiment you think strong in conservation and you feel like it's trending that way, do you think it'll do you think there's like strong conviction behind it? Or is it the is it the trend? I think there's conviction behind it these days. I think it's always gonna be fewer people than you want, but the people who are who are serious about it are you know, the people who are doing the work more often than not. And there's conservation orgs out there like Trout Unlimited just absolutely kicks butt. Yeah. They raise a lot of money. And a lot of times it's the it's the armchair quarterbacks who are living in the suburbs and they they love their one weekend of trout fishing a year that they make up there. But I mean they they Pay the membership dues and they make their donations and all that goes to stream restoration, habitat improvement and you know, stocking programs, depending on where you're at. So

Nicolas Lirio (1:08:49)
We just we just they just I think I don't I don't see the orders anymore, which is kind of a weird thing. I'm pretty sure Judd was telling me that they bought some seed from us here recently for but we've been talking for like two years. Like we need to get someone from Troun Limited on here. So I'm sure you know the right guy we need to interview. Yeah. but you're the marketing merit, you could just email them and have come on over here. Start filling in Ken My schedule. Yeah. Well, that's encouraging to hear. I've just really got Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Nicolas Lirio (1:09:19)
I've got one more question. it's about here on the team. I'm I'm genuinely curious out in the wilderness, like not Kenya, you don't have to peek Ken Knight's ears, you already got the job, okay? What is the sentiment on our podcast from people out there? Because when you talk to people, the the Iowa Nice is real. They're not gonna tell me to my face, well It kinda sucks. So I that's an interesting I'm gonna get to that answer there. You mentioned Iowa nice. I'm waiting for the Iowa equivalent of like a Char or Charlie Barons to appear out of the maybe it's Judd McCollum. I don't know. It could be That's right, he is an Illum. Dang it. He wants to annoy. It w what do you mean by the Charlie Barons? Like what part of him? The comedy, the the

Pierce Nelles (1:10:12)
Comedy, the the conservation. I mean, he's active especially like on the data centers right now, as well as the different power lines and stuff going across like I DM'd him asking if he'd come on the pod. Got no response. I don't I don't blame him, but if you know someone that I'll tap the network and see what I can do. I'm trying to get on my show too, yeah. I feel like he would on your show. Like he's definitely heard of your show. I feel like if you hunt quite a bit in Wisconsin, you've heard of the Wisconsin sports. You know it's just how good. Yeah. We're like third connections, I think. So if Charlie if you're listening. You I'm coming for you, buddy.

Nicolas Lirio (1:10:42)
Aren't you like fourth connections from everyone in the world? Isn't that a thing? Six. Six Sixty, yeah, that's what it was. I just had another one with Bruce today. One of his college teammates I coached for Yeah, it's like

Pierce Nelles (1:10:58)
That's right. That's unbelievable. Kent doesn't know anybody, but he knows someone that knows you. Yeah, that knows you. He doesn't But to answer the question, I think the the sentiment towards the Prairie Farm podcast is overwhelmingly positive. I think the information I know, I'm j I'm this is this is my own my own take on this. But I think the information that you guys are putting out is extremely important right now when there's a lot of That's beautiful.

Pierce Nelles (1:11:29)
No, there's a lot of there's a lot of crap out there, right? And it's tough to weed through all the information, all the stuff that comes across a feed. I think being an authority on conservation related issues that don't just I mean we yeah, it's about it's the prairie farm, right? But I mean, like we've talked about, you've got biologist guides, experts in various fields from I mean, whether it be hunting, fishing, weather people. That was wild. Actually looking for another microplastic Okay, one scared the absolute crap out of me after listening to that. But two, it's like where else are you hearing that information from Yeah. I I I don't think the the prairie farm is is is bro science, right? I I think So I think we're we're we're in good standing there. Yeah.

Nicolas Lirio (1:12:18)
Yeah, that's that's that's a that's a bit I fear that. I do. As a five No, that's I and I I've told this story before, but it was it was a little bit. Like we had some experts on, but we didn't even I wasn't an expert interviewer, Kent was at that point, but the we met a guy named Jimmy at Pheasant Fest who knew who we were and we'd only had the podcast like eight months at that time and it it like genuinely disturbed me. Former biology teacher, I fear that. Yeah.

Nicolas Lirio (1:12:47)
And I started like reading more about the topics I was gonna bring up on the podcast 'cause I was like, random people this is affecting random humans' lives. I better do you guys pay. Do you do this where it's like you get somebody who says like I listened to the show and then you like picture that person every time you put an episode together? Yeah. Like I can picture like a dozen people that to my knowledge, those are the only people that listen to any of the Wisconsin sportsmen. I'm like, Well, that's just must be my my audience, I guess. Absolutely.

Kent Boucher (1:13:14)
And there's a there's a certain fondness I have for those people and I've and I value their opinion. Yeah. Whether themselves or not. The fact that I know they're listening, I'm like, I wonder how they thought about that. Do they like that? What would they want me to tweak you? Whether they whether they have any credibility

Pierce Nelles (1:13:29)
Yeah. It's it's one of the great joys of my life when people that I deeply respect, I mean, many of them have been on the podcast, but they listen and they just text me, really like that last episode. Or something specific. Hey, crazy story. I also, you know, it deep joy. Like it's hard to I mean, you've had it, you know. It's just it's hard to explain. You know, it's like, someone else cares about something I'm putting out in the world. I think it also triggers the like creative brain. It's why so many people want to be like creatives, is because they want to put something out in the world that other people like. Yeah. You know. They they want to do something that matters. And and the the I don't know, so much of your life i my I have one of my brothers, he says people are weird. He just says that. And because people have their ways of doing things. I was thinking of this last week when we're when you and Tommy were talking about how often to switch your your towels for for showering. Family

Kent Boucher (1:14:28)
The they're within their own upbringing, their own family, they th they have their ways of doing things, right? And It's Now when it comes to how how often you change your bath towels, it's not so important. But when you start looking at what you do for a job, the message you're wanting to communicate, what you're passionate about, sometimes you when you're in your most honest version of yourself, wondering, is there like does this carry any weight to what you know, or or does this is this worth hearing or is this even worth my time? And then when you h hear that validation, you know. It continues to it helps you know your what you're you're doing is matters to somebody. Yeah. Well, and like like you said, like so few people actually will send a message, whether it be yeah, a critique or you know, just a positive message, like, hey, that was a cool conversation. you know, liked your take on this, whatever it may be. It's the same thing with like reaching out to like public officials. Yeah. Like we talked to the congressman on on my show and he said if there's an issue that you care about, again this is in Wisconsin, but like if there's an issue that's, you know, up for a vote or something, if he hears five

Pierce Nelles (1:15:43)
It gets like five calls or emails or here's from five citizens. That's a lot. Yeah. So it doesn't take a whole lot to really move the needle on a lot of these issues and Something I mean, we've talked about this, but something and I maybe I mentioned here on the pod, I that I really want to do is I want people to be like, This is my name, this is my email, this is my zip code, and we automatically database it. And then on topics that are relevant in your area, we basically just conservation wise, strictly, we reach out on your behalf, not claiming to be someone like let's say a lady named Sarah reaches out. We wouldn't Hey, we we would just reach out to someone in Sarah's district and say, Hey We represent, you know, eighteen people in your small state district. Like this is what they care for Yeah. We represent the representative form of government that we have here. Yeah, I I just think it would be interesting to like be able to help people have a voice, you know, a little more unity, with a little more unity without having to like stamp a political Well we weren't elected.

Nicolas Lirio (1:16:53)
red or blue on it. I just you know, they it gets poisonous really quick. So anyway, we really appreciate you. The Wisconsin Sportsman, if you are into hunting or it do they say angling? Hunting, fishing and conservation is is what I say. Come on. It's it's a good pod. We were on there once upon a time. I had a really good bear hunting one recently. I really enjoyed that one too. Yeah, that one is cra Yeah. yeah. There's some I mean there's it's like Iowa too. I mean there's unique opportunities and some creative ways to pursue a bunch of different

Kent Boucher (1:17:23)
know what though, I a beef I got a real beef with Wisconsin. Why don't you guys celebrate Alice Chalmers? Yeah. We need to There's just so many there's just yeah, but I mean like it was you know, it was a big deal at one time. What does Agco stand for? Yeah. Gleaner Company. Alice Gleaner Company. Yeah. Yeah, what are you what is Yeah, Ali Alice We talked about it

Pierce Nelles (1:17:46)
We talked about it. We need to get the the Green Bay Packers to do an Alice Chalmers night or something. Rather than cheese heads we'll have some like an all crop head. Everybody would be poking each other in the eye. Giant foam all crop. There's no way you couldn't get those custom ordered that we could have them on in the pod here and like we're making doctors who are sitting here with us wear everyone that walks through Norway. Add it to the list, Nick. We're gonna make it happen. Well Pierce we really really Pierce super intelligent guy and I I hope he's starting to understand the ethos our whole point on Mark.

Kent Boucher (1:18:16)
Yeah, we'd love to have you on the

Kent Boucher (1:18:24)
Mark number of applicants. It was it was eighty-four and then I quit counting. And and and to be to be fair, like most there were crazy qualified people, but it willed down to like I mean you just couldn't believe the level of experience that yeah, it it had to match. And there was a couple of people, there were a couple other people besides Pierce that was like you would be Add to match.

Nicolas Lirio (1:18:49)
Perfect and it came down to a couple small things. And one is how well he handles himself on his own podcast. Not just like, he has a good podcast, but like he handles himself well. He the way that he carries himself. And Kent and I are trying to be like a force that helps unify, you know, people and in all sorts of diff disagreements. And we understand conservation can be a difficult thing to talk about. And Pierce just did it so well. And but yeah, we had a ton of applicants, the vast majority were qualified, many were overqualified. and then a bunch were like like we had two from Florida that were like, Is there any way you would take someone from Florida? And then one person was like, I will uproot my life right now and I will move to Iowa from the Carolinas and I was like That I can't pressure. I can't tumbled Yeah, yeah, I can't that's you know, there's we got a lot of growing So we really really, really appreciate all that. He's a special man. We love all you folks. Pierce is just very special. This is a special team to be a part of. I'm I'm very that was I mean Nick and I were talking about it today. Like I've I've got other ventures of my own and it was one of those things and I said it and you know, I I think I've told all you guys that it when you d I saw

Kent Boucher (1:20:03)
Like it was like a divine intervention moment. I was just I I think I was I was I was harvesting or mowing. I think I was mowing. I was mowing a new Virginia wild rye field and it just hit me. I'm like, appears to be perfect. What did you see my Facebook notification come through right before that? I I opened my phone and just like happened to open Facebook and like Kent Boucher shared a post from Hoxanative Seeds and I liked it. I was like, that's exciting. And I was like, huh. Man, that'd be super cool if there was a way to work with those guys. And then not 30 seconds later, text from Kent Boucher, and it's just the picture of the of the graphic that we used for the for the listing. And just the big eyes emoji. I was like, Dang it, Kent, we're on the same way But Yeah, it was just one of those things, you know, I think Yeah, there's Yeah, it it yeah. I don't know. There if there were ever a sign outside of that, I mean it just was one of those things I immediately had that feeling of I don't know how this is gonna work, but we'll figure it out along the way and gotta gotta throw your hat in the ring. And so I'm glad that worked out. I'm Yeah.

Kent Boucher (1:20:57)
It just hit me.

Pierce Nelles (1:21:14)
extremely proud to be part of this team and be joining such a great group of guys. You're gonna find out the real us though. Sometimes sometimes I gotcha. Sometimes we do suck. You gotta have your first hangout next week, Nick's birthday. We have instructed him to wear orange. You'll have to find out why.

Pierce Nelles (1:21:30)
Yes, sir.

Nicolas Lirio (1:21:34)
I have no idea what's going on the next I was probably Yeah, yeah, it'll be couple of weeks from now. Yeah. Now. Yeah, I I don't know what's going on, but next week we're hanging out for the old the old B Day. Yeah. The old we're close to three I know, just wait till you turn through.

Nicolas Lirio (1:21:51)
Man, well everyone thank you for listening. Just like Pierce and everyone else on this team, conservation, it happens just one mind. Out of time.