Listen to the Land: Conversations about Conservation w/Doug Duren Ep. 1
We at The Prairie Farm Podcast are very excited to host Doug's new show. He will be joining us quarterly to have deep, and thought provoking conversations about our land ethic and how we can make a difference for the future. Because... "It's not ours. It's just our turn."
In this first episode, we discuss CWD, land fragmentation, Sharing The Land, our founder Carroll, and a lot more. We deeply enjoyed this conversation, and we believe you will as well!
Check out this episode of the Prairie Farm Podcast to find out more!
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00:00:00:12 - 00:00:15:13
Unknown
I'm Doug Doeren, and you're listening to the listen to the land podcast, conversations about conservation, hosted by the Prairie Farm podcast here at Hoxie native Seeds in Iowa.
00:00:15:13 - 00:00:32:21
Unknown
I am excited about doing this podcast because I've had a lot of requests and a lot of suggestions, I guess, to do, a podcast of my own. And, I used to think that if I had a podcast that I would call it what was I talking about?
00:00:32:23 - 00:01:02:14
Unknown
As I tend to kind of forget what I'm talking about. So that may come up where that maybe that's the third or the second subtitle or something. But I'm excited to do this because. I have a few things to say, and I have been on a lot of podcasts, and that seems to have been enough in the in the past, but I've had such a, great experience here at Hoxie Seed and such great admiration for Carol Roxburgh.
00:01:02:14 - 00:01:31:10
Unknown
And, my dear and late friend and for these two guys and what they've been doing and how they're going to carry this on, that this just seemed like such a natural fit. As we started to talk about how we could work together in the, in the future. And so we hope to be doing this. Well, no, we plan to be doing this quarterly.
00:01:31:12 - 00:02:03:02
Unknown
So whatever that is, once every three months we'll release one. And, maybe it'll be more I don't think it'll be less. And, you know, Nick and Kenny will be here with me, bringing their, expertise and and sense of humor to all of this. And I hope that we can provide another component to the conversations that they've already started.
00:02:03:04 - 00:02:43:14
Unknown
I'm happy to talk about. We have some subjects we'll talk about today, essentially introducing the podcast. But, I hope that we can touch on some of the subjects that people wanted to know more about. There will be a lot of philosophy, there will be some suggestions. There will be some comfortable and uncomfortable conversations. And one of the things that I would like from you as the audience is to contact us if you have any subjects that you'd like to hear about, questions that you have.
00:02:46:09 - 00:03:05:18
Unknown
And, you know, we'll try to get to them. So welcome some of them. I want to I want to add, about this is, is we always enjoy hanging out with you. And the more time we get to spend with you, you know, you're known as, like, the seed guy for people. Or maybe people know. Yeah, there's the white guy.
00:03:06:07 - 00:03:20:03
Unknown
But it's what you want, whether you want to be or not. Yeah, yeah, that's an interesting point. So people have you on their podcast to talk about these specific things, but the more I've gotten to know, it's like, man, Doug's got so much to share. And when you're on someone else's podcast, you just don't always get the chance.
00:03:20:03 - 00:03:38:15
Unknown
You kind of talk about what they want to talk about. So I'm excited for that. For more of the, you're already listeners and audience and then any of ours that haven't heard yet, which I think most will probably have, but yeah, gets love layers to Doug Darren. Absolutely. Yeah. They're shallow layers. Well, I do a lot of them.
00:03:39:21 - 00:04:07:09
Unknown
I if I was going to summarize my outlook on things, I am wider than I am deep. I'm one of those, I think people call a jack of all trades and master of none, but I would like I, I do think that because of just sort of my nature, I'm interested. I'm easily interested in something, and some things I know more about and others I don't.
00:04:07:11 - 00:04:33:07
Unknown
One theme through all of this, if you've paid attention to me, that I don't pretend to be an expert. I am more of a philosopher, and part of what I can do is provide, experience. I'm 66 years old. I've had some experience and perspective, on issues and chronic wasting disease is one of them, and I'm happy to talk about that.
00:04:33:13 - 00:04:59:17
Unknown
And I'm sure we will in one of the, one of the podcasts. Part of the reason I'm here in, what is the name of this town we're outside of Linda Lynn Linval, Iowa. Oh, yeah. The booming metropolis, is. I'm on my way to, a seed event in, Jefferson City, Missouri, where I'm the, I'll be speaking tomorrow night.
00:04:59:19 - 00:05:29:04
Unknown
Of course you won't hear this before then. As a part of an event for the Missouri Conservation Department of Conservation, Missouri Department of Conservation, and, a couple of their, conservation groups down there. And I'm so excited to learn about what they've been doing with seed and how that's been going for them, and then encourage them to, you know, stay after it.
00:05:29:04 - 00:05:49:02
Unknown
Unfortunately, in Wisconsin, we gave up, and, you know, consequently, we can have a real conversation about what happens when you give up. What what do you mean by give up? Like the problem became so huge that you decided we can't keep doing this? Or was it more of, like, people kind of started denying there was a problem?
00:05:49:07 - 00:05:56:09
Unknown
What does it mean to give up? Well, the.
00:05:56:11 - 00:06:22:03
Unknown
Oh, Nick, I spent the whole podcast talking about this. No, I will say this that, our Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources had a good plan. The implementation of it maybe wasn't as good, but they were. Remember, you would know this, but, Kent certainly would, that we, had a good program. We had a good way of controlling population, which is how you control disease.
00:06:22:05 - 00:06:48:12
Unknown
And about ten years into that, it became political. And so rather than following the science and doing science based management, which is what the North American model of wildlife conservation that hunters like to own their chests about, rather than following that it was actually hunters who put political pressure on the legislature and the governor to stop the population and disease management programs.
00:06:48:14 - 00:07:10:00
Unknown
And I say we we gave up, I didn't, and a lot of people I know didn't. In fact, we continued it. To try to, to, to try to do the best thing for the resource, you know, and, and it was fairly obvious to me what that we were headed in the right direction with what we were doing.
00:07:10:00 - 00:07:30:03
Unknown
Well, usually something gets political because some party is motivated to keep control or power or money. So what are the hunters have to gain? Why? Why are they? Why are they putting pressure on legislators to not do that? Some of the hunters I guess the biggest management, tool, the best management tool there is for controlling whitetail deer population.
00:07:30:03 - 00:07:46:06
Unknown
And when you control population, you're also controlling disease. Right. So you got a lot of deer and there's a communicable disease. It spreads through them more easily. Whereas if you kill more and they're spread out a little bit more, it's it's going to slow down. And the only tool that we have because it's always fatal and it doesn't.
00:07:46:08 - 00:08:26:02
Unknown
Yeah. It's, it's, it's not going to go away. Yeah. The tool was earn a buck, which required a hunter to kill a doe before they could kill a buck. And it was a particularly good way of controlling population. Hunters in Wisconsin, especially southwest Wisconsin, had been spoiled. It's just going to speak frankly about this, because we were in excess of 65 or 70 deer per square mile of habitat when a gun hunter would go out on an 85% of the areas habitat, at least my county and surrounding areas now.
00:08:26:02 - 00:08:45:03
Unknown
Yeah, you've seen it know. So when you if you're a gun hunter who tend to be people who don't have a lot of time and like to go out and sit on a stump opening morning, shoot a deer and they're done by noon or whatever. And I I'm disparaging gun hunters now, which I'm sure Kent is very surprised for me to hear.
00:08:45:05 - 00:09:02:03
Unknown
But it's true, right? I mean, it just doesn't require as much. And it's a very short season. You got opening day and you see 30 deer and you pick a, buck out of the crowd because you want to shoot a buck because it's got antlers. And that's all part of it, too, which I don't. I'm. I like killing Buck's.
00:09:02:09 - 00:09:39:03
Unknown
Yeah. Like killing big, giant bucks. But if you had to earn that buck by shooting the doe first, people don't like to be told what to do. Yeah. And so that was one of the things. There were some other things that we can get into when we actually talk about it on, on this podcast, where we devote probably a podcast to it that we're a part of it, but that that and longer seasons, gun seasons that were starting earlier and which were in the traditional bow hunting time and bow hunters didn't like it.
00:09:39:04 - 00:10:01:06
Unknown
They didn't like that gun hunters were out hunting during what they saw as their bow hunting time. And what's odd about that to me is that 95% of the land in the area that, that we're talking about in southwest Wisconsin is privately owned. If you don't have a gun hunting on your land and don't have a gun on your land, I am now at the point where I'm advocating for when September 15th comes around.
00:10:01:06 - 00:10:20:09
Unknown
The deer hunting starts. I should be go on my land with a rifle if I want to. And that is controversial. Yeah. No. Yeah. But. And when I said that, a member of the bow hunting community said, well, you act like you're you own a deer. And I'm like, I'm not the guy who's trying to restrict people's hunting rights.
00:10:20:10 - 00:10:34:20
Unknown
Yeah. And hunting opportunities. I'm trying to encourage it. When we start talking about sharing the land, that's a part of it, too, you know? Right. If if a landowner wants to remove a bunch of deer from his property.
00:10:34:22 - 00:10:52:18
Unknown
How do you decide who's going to get the opportunity to do that? I can tell you this as a as a deer hunter who killed a bunch of deer. I don't like killing more than 1 or 2 deer a year because it turns into a real project. Yeah, that's right. I shot seven dogs. One one. Day, one afternoon, one afternoon, and just piled them up.
00:10:52:18 - 00:11:12:07
Unknown
And then I went hunting, gutting them all, and put them in the back of the truck. And I kept two of them, and I hauled the other five to. And I was like, this is a job. Yeah. And so what percentage of the deer coming back with, in my township? Over 40%. It's south of me. It's a little less than that, but also south of me.
00:11:12:09 - 00:11:36:14
Unknown
It has been, has been there for more than, well, almost two decades. So in some places, more than two decades. So now they are starting to see the results of, not controlling the disease. And suddenly the population, they've got population issues and higher percentage of boxer positive, 50% of blacks, more than 50% of the bugs that we kill are positive and they pass it on.
00:11:36:14 - 00:12:03:18
Unknown
If they, if they to like, when they breed, are they asking if, chronic wasting disease is an STD? Nicholas. Yes. But also, do they know is it just like, do they pass it on to their kids when they when they have a foreign. Well, when it's interesting we're not there's a lot that we don't know about chronic wasting disease, which is one of the things that the naysayers will say, well, you know enough about it.
00:12:03:18 - 00:12:25:10
Unknown
And it's like, well, the evidence suggests, the science suggests, yeah, is what science is. I've heard people who know better say, well, if we don't know 100%, we don't know anything. And so, like, that's not how science works. Yeah, yeah. The data suggests this. The data suggests that it's passed on, can be passed on by a doe to her fawns in utero.
00:12:25:12 - 00:12:48:03
Unknown
Oddly, there have been, instances where those usually have twins, where one is positive and one is not wild to begin with. And then, of course, the first thing that a doe does when a fawn hits the ground is to lick it. And that's. Yeah, the main mechanism seems to be the main mechanism for spreading the disease.
00:12:48:03 - 00:13:06:11
Unknown
So a positive Doe is going to pass. It is likely to pass it on to her fawns very quickly. Obviously you don't just get one tag, but let's say you you get one tag for the year or let's say you get two tags and and you're wanting to eat meat, you want venison and you kill two, two deer.
00:13:06:14 - 00:13:30:03
Unknown
You're planning on eating them, and they both have. You're out of luck for that year. Is that. No. Okay. But we're going to discover so many things as we do this podcast. And one of the things that I find really interesting is because you don't really have a hunter's perspective on any of this. No. So yeah, it's like these you have questions, but they're good questions.
00:13:30:03 - 00:13:50:00
Unknown
And that's a great question. And so I mean, I was just sort of a little light went on that like, I'm so glad next part of this. Yeah. Oh it used to tell me that and it holds true that up with oh no kid would tell me, do not pretend to be a hunter. When we first started the podcast, he's like, don't pretend just to hear yours.
00:13:50:02 - 00:14:10:04
Unknown
Well, we got to tell a story about Nicholas one time. He did. He did not heed my advice. Oh, yes, he did that once with baseball. No, we won't tell that story. The worst story of my life. We, And he was. He was talking to a customer on the phone. He's like, hey, you should check out our our podcast sometime, you know, because the guy mentioned you like to hang around.
00:14:10:06 - 00:14:28:12
Unknown
We've had hunters on there. You know, we had Ryan Callahan on there. You know Kyle, he likes to hunt out in the, he's like, totally draws a blank. And he's, like, staring around the room. He's like, you know, I gotta say something like. But yeah, he comes up with, you know, the, the, Western Mountains. Okay.
00:14:28:12 - 00:14:45:22
Unknown
Well, there's more to that story. First of all, I wasn't speaking for Cal, record. I said he had just told us a story. No, I'm saying you. We had him on the podcast. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, no, what it was is what came to my brain. I know it's the Rocky Mountains, all right? I know what they're called.
00:14:46:00 - 00:15:00:05
Unknown
What came to my brain was Smoky Mountains, and I was like, that is there. And then I had a brain fart. So I was just like the mountains on the west. The western mountains western. Well, it's just we had a good conversation about the western mountains. And the dude didn't drop a beat. He just we just kept on talking.
00:15:00:05 - 00:15:31:04
Unknown
But Ken Ken was eating his lunch, trying not to throw it up, laughing so hard. That's hilarious. But I think here's the thing five. What is it? Can't you probably know these numbers? Five 6% of the public hunts? Yeah, they're 4%. Yep. And so 95, 96% doesn't. So when we're having conversations about conservation and hunting is a part of or can be a part of conservation, I respect your work and knowledge about conservation.
00:15:31:06 - 00:15:50:08
Unknown
Thank you. Well, he represents the other 90, but you rep in the hunting thing, so those are great questions. So what was it? What were we talking about? Yeah, I was getting the sometimes I was getting all curious and, so do you get a new tag in Wisconsin? Yeah, actually. So I'll say a couple of things.
00:15:50:08 - 00:16:16:18
Unknown
The first one is there has never been a proven link between eating positive, crab meat from a positive deer and then somehow contracting creates wild Jacobi's disease, which is the same variant that we get is the same disease that we get into prion based disease. Is it by God? What's that? Is it deadly? Always. Oh, man. So, Kent, would you eat it with tested positive?
00:16:16:20 - 00:16:47:04
Unknown
I probably would not eat it now. Okay. But in. Well. But if I knew if I did, I would. There's, there's, there are pesticides that I encounter on from time to time that I would lose more sleep over if like, let's say I got splashed in the face or something. Yeah. Than I would if, if, like, let's say I went well, the classic example, there's a big, wild game dinner, what, 15 years ago or whatever.
00:16:47:04 - 00:17:09:00
Unknown
Yeah. Oh, sorry. But, you know, just out of CWG. Me. Yeah. You know, I mean, it would always be in the back of my mind. It'd be a concern. But because like Doug has said, there's been I mean, it's I mean, how many people in Wisconsin do you think have probably been eating infected meat? I have not eaten knowingly eat and see the positive meat.
00:17:09:00 - 00:17:30:05
Unknown
But I know that I've been exposed to the to the prions. Yeah. And got it. And so there's probably at this point I'd say because I think that keyword there knowingly, I think there's probably a lot of unknown, unwittingly, people have eaten Covid positive meat for decades. So.
00:17:30:07 - 00:17:59:20
Unknown
At 66 years old and you at what, 27? You know, I wish you. Oh 3535 you know, and, be careful. Lean into your mike. Oh. I'm sorry. We're we're, certainly have to die from something else. Yeah. So one of the things that I. And I don't mean this to be hyperbolic or scare people or anything, like there has not been a proven case where it has transferred to humans yet, right?
00:18:01:05 - 00:18:27:23
Unknown
Studies have shown that that's a very real possibility, that the possibility is not zero. Right. But it's not great. I do not judge or begrudge anyone who says, you know, I killed this thing. I'm going to eat it. Yeah. I do have these conversations, which are interesting because of the having the kiosk in the dumpster and all that, where people are like, I'm throwing this one out, but I'm gonna eat this one.
00:18:28:02 - 00:18:42:22
Unknown
So you going to get it tested? Well, we'll get that one tested. The one that's clearly sick, but yeah, I'm not worried about the other one. I'm like, it's more people will say, I'm going to eat it anyway. Okay, but you wouldn't eat the one that's at the later stages of the disease. That's what it does. You would eat one that does.
00:18:43:03 - 00:19:03:05
Unknown
Personally, I don't do it, but I don't begrudge people. But I also or I don't judge people who don't, but I don't also want to I also don't want to be judged because I'm choosing not to. Right. And I don't think that would change quite honestly, if I was, in a position where honestly, I could just go out and shoot another deer.
00:19:03:08 - 00:19:27:11
Unknown
Yeah. To answer your question, in Wisconsin you get a replacement tag. Oh, and so if and now what one of the things that we've tried to do that my county Deer Advisory Council and I introduced and now has become regulation in Wisconsin. If you shoot a doe and you get it tested and it comes back positive, you replacement tag is for either sex.
00:19:27:11 - 00:19:48:22
Unknown
Oh, so the idea is that we're encouraging people to shoot a doe and get it tested, rather than requiring them to. The jury's still out if we're really if that's going to make up any kind of an impact on a better I, I would imagine also it will definitely get more, testing. Yeah. We'll get people killing more deer.
00:19:48:22 - 00:20:12:03
Unknown
There's just so it's it's it's to me it's very simple. But at the same time I understand the complexities of it. Yeah. And, and, and I, I just want to have those conversations about conservation with people and in this case, about seaweed. And that's why I'm going down the Missouri, after we're, done here today. Because they're they're at a point where they.
00:20:12:05 - 00:20:32:08
Unknown
It's over. I shouldn't say it's over in Wisconsin, but the genie's out of the bottle in Wisconsin. It's in all of our 72 states. It's in, like two thirds of them now. County. And I'm sorry, counties in the state. Thank you. See, that's the other reason you're here. Okay. Put the right words in my mouth. People know the dog is aware of the the 5050.
00:20:32:10 - 00:21:00:18
Unknown
Yeah. You know, we're 72. Well, you know, we're thinking about taking over Canada and Mexico, right? I mean, infecting western mountains are in oh, I'd say 30 as well. So there you go. So, yeah, that's a big subject. And it's one that maybe people have questions about and we can talk about. But, I am trying my efforts to pay attention to the science, and I have been since I was first identified in Wisconsin.
00:21:00:20 - 00:21:26:05
Unknown
And, I think it's important for us to do the best thing. We talked about that a little bit yesterday. That part of what we're trying to do on their farm is we're trying to do the best or right thing. And what is that? If suddenly we're told that, you know, what's going to happen is that the population is going to stabilize at 20 deer per square mile, and you aren't going to have very high prevalence.
00:21:28:12 - 00:21:56:01
Unknown
Then I would say, well, let's get them to 20 deer per square mile as fast as we can. Yeah. And maybe that'll, that maybe the, the prevalence will stabilize, but that might also be the number of deer that the, that the Mother Nature can best support on our land. Yeah. And I think the number that that's a sustainable number in our, in southwest Wisconsin at least is closer to that rather than 60 or 65, where it is in some areas now three times.
00:21:56:03 - 00:22:23:04
Unknown
And we are seeing that decline in population in our, in our area. And that was I mean, that's that's triple what, what is, you know, calculated to be healthy. Has there been you know, the old ecology lesson is, well, eventually you end up with a population crash and it's it's pitched as because of disease and overuse of resource.
00:22:23:06 - 00:22:51:03
Unknown
And and then following that, after a population crashes, the carrying capacity is, is typically permanently or at least for many generations of that species living in that ecosystem. The carrying capacity is limited because of long term damage from the overuse of of the resource, because, yeah, the rest of the members of the biotic community have suffered and now it's their time to maybe get back a little bit.
00:22:51:03 - 00:23:21:04
Unknown
Yeah. So has have those has that level of effect. So on the biotic community level has that been started to be noticed because of such a heavy deer population? Oh yeah. I mean, it's one of the biggest conservation efforts I'm involved with on our property is the regeneration of red and white oak. And it's virtually impossible or certainly very difficult if you are, you know, sort of typical planting of oak trees in a row.
00:23:21:04 - 00:23:37:03
Unknown
It used to be that the method was you would plant a row of white pine some, and then a row of white oaks or red oaks, and those white pines would make the oaks grow tall and straight and be good timber value. But what it also does is provides cover to the deer. Walk right down those roses and chew them off.
00:23:37:03 - 00:24:03:00
Unknown
So if you're not tubing, or whatever. So, you know, so much of what has been done in conservation, methods over the years seemed like the right thing at the time. Right. And it worked in the 70s and 80s to plant like that. But then we have this deer population. I I'll show you this when you're on the farm the next time we have a 14 acre white pine plantation that doesn't have an oak in it, it's supposed to be every other room.
00:24:03:05 - 00:24:33:06
Unknown
There's not an oak in it. Wow. And we sprayed Deer Guard. We did all of these things, and we liberally used, the best deer repellent there is, which is a small piece of copper at a very high velocity. And we do we kill it in an amazing amount of deer to the point where there's people in the area think that what I'm doing is, is this is detrimental to.
00:24:33:08 - 00:24:59:06
Unknown
Not to conservation or what's best for the. Because they don't really look at it like that. Well, it's hurting their deer hunting. Right. And so if you have a focus that I have this property to go deer hunting or all I'm interested in doing outside is to go deer hunting. Well, you want to see all the deer that you can't, but we know and, certainly, science has showed us that that is not doing the best thing for the biotic community.
00:24:59:08 - 00:25:31:04
Unknown
And as Aldo said, the thing is, right, when it tends to preserve the beauty, integrity and stability of the biotic community, and it tends to be wrong when it does not. Yeah. And so that's my motivation in all of this. Right. As we've talked about a little bit in the past, and we can talk about more, our farm has a lot of woodlands because of my, my, family, when they first bought that property, it was for the woods because they were lumberman.
00:25:32:01 - 00:25:53:20
Unknown
And, we still have 200, over 240 acres of woods in to try to regenerate that. Here's an interesting thing about whitetail deer. They love native species. Yeah. And they're browsers, right. Or they're generalists. There's there's another word for it that I heard recently, and I forget what it is, but I always said they were browsers and that's not exactly right.
00:25:53:20 - 00:26:14:00
Unknown
They. Yeah. The guy who I just interviewed gave us that term, doctor Mark Turner. Yeah. And I even wrote a blog about it and I can't remember what she this is how much I like your podcast. I learned things, I listen to it and I learn things from it. I don't even remember where they how I heard it.
00:26:14:18 - 00:26:43:02
Unknown
But it's like, so there's this, you know, kind of consciousness, so, yeah, there's a term for it. Somebody look that up and it's like, it's like super. It's something. So like, yeah, it sounded a little. It sounded a little woowoo honest, like Dave or something. Yeah. And, but they need to browse. And they will not or they don't prefer will not eat or don't prefer things like autumn olive.
00:26:43:17 - 00:27:06:04
Unknown
Multipolar rose honeysuckle. Yeah. The things that dominate the that are dominating the landscape. But what they will eat are viburnum and choke cherries and, are and hazel not and or hazel brush, as my dad used to call it. Because when he was a kid, that was what that's the brusher went out and cut concentrate selectors. There it is.
00:27:06:04 - 00:27:30:09
Unknown
Concentra rate selectors. Yep. That's doesn't even matter now. Yeah but no listeners. But but and so what ends up happening is they when there's a high population they browse those native species, those native woods so heavily and then you've got these invasives that. Yeah, all they need is a little opportunity. And so now you've gotten the the competition out of the way and boom they're back.
00:27:30:11 - 00:27:58:17
Unknown
There you go. So it's all connected. Yeah. And I think that's one of the lessons of, of conservation. Right. There's that whole thing that I, that Leopold quote I just did, there's a the one health movement now and, some of you guys were talking about with water with your previous guest and all of those things. I mean, it's just like none of these things in, in the ecosystem kind of stand alone.
00:27:58:17 - 00:28:22:10
Unknown
It's a system, right? It's a biotic community, is a biotic system. And I don't pretend to know be an expert about any of it. I know enough about kind of all of it to understand how it is connected. And then through my work, the thing that I have learned, I learned it from a college professor at Buena Vista College.
00:28:22:10 - 00:28:42:17
Unknown
The storm, like you said, Doug goes back to Storm Lake. All of a sudden, all roads lead to Storm Lake. No roads like that one. That was one in and one out. Last spring it was flooded. But, I, I really enjoyed my time there. And that's an interesting perspective that we can talk about some time that how different that is.
00:28:42:17 - 00:29:15:23
Unknown
The last time I went through there, that area, how different it is, how the farming practices are different. But, Doctor Jeff Peril was one of my professors and mentors there. I was a returning, nontraditional returning student, which can be a subject about how did you get to where you are? And I was real frustrated because I felt like I was trying to make up for lost time, that I was out doing things, traveling the country and planting trees and working in the mountains and doing different things.
00:29:15:23 - 00:29:40:07
Unknown
And then I finally decided to go back and finish school. And I was really frustrated about, like, my lack of knowledge about things. And he said, Doug, you don't need to feel like you need to learn everything. The most important thing for you to learn is how to find out and how to tap into that. And, you know, that was like being a good researcher and everything.
00:29:40:07 - 00:29:59:02
Unknown
Now, well, I just got the damn Google machine on my phone. Oh, right. Yeah. But then you've got to learn how to kind of sort through that stuff too. But that's I think that's an important lesson for everybody. One of the things that I've really learned is because I'm not a, you know, a PhD or whatever expert in a particular field.
00:29:59:04 - 00:30:22:01
Unknown
I know, as I said, I know more about some things than others. Oh, I'm fly hunting here. Yeah. We've been we've been getting harassed by flies. Don't worry, Doug, we're working on a studio and I'll be free of flies. There's, there's three right there. I'm not against flies. I'm not for you about either. Oh. Oh, that was a trick.
00:30:22:01 - 00:30:41:03
Unknown
Yeah, it's a triple kill. But the point was, is that. And he said you just need to learn how to find out and find the people and find the resources, and then be discerning about how you tap into those. It was like, that's good advice. I mean, I should have probably just said, okay, my college education is over.
00:30:41:05 - 00:31:18:17
Unknown
Sign here please. Because that was the most important thing I learned. Yeah. You know, and it's it's it's served me well for the last few 40 plus years. Yeah, yeah. That's, that's that's very valuable advice. You know, kind of sticking with that theme of education and, and, really, you know, it is so interesting. We know you as friends and getting to know some of your backstory, I, I oftentimes when I get to know somebody, well, I like to, kind of play back the life story that they've told me, you know, so that I started here, I thought I was going to do this, and that led to this, and then I ended
00:31:18:17 - 00:31:45:12
Unknown
up here. Yeah. You have a similar story. Oh, yeah. You and I have very similar stories. You know, we both started our careers in education and both born in the 50s. Wait, there's a fly right on the front seat, right on his nose. But, no, I mean, it's it's it's interesting how your path and then even your different careers that you did after education.
00:31:45:14 - 00:32:11:21
Unknown
You ended up and really as what people are going to know you as. And you would never claim this yourself because I know you're you're too modest to do so, but just we people know we're friends with you. And so when we go to events and, you know, trade shows and things like that, you come up in conversation often or, you know, guests that come on the podcast, you're you're known as as a conservationist.
00:32:11:23 - 00:32:34:18
Unknown
And I always appreciated when you, you did your intro. You said trying to be a conservationist, which I think is an important thing to say, because that term for someone to be counted as a conservationist, I would say, I was listening to this this on New Hampshire Public Radio podcast this last week was cleaning some June grass.
00:32:34:19 - 00:32:55:09
Unknown
My mother in law actually said it to me. She thought I'd be interested in about the Appalachian Trail. And they said something in there. They said, you they, you know, it's it's it kind of reminded me of, like anime people a little bit. Nicholson. Yeah. They they say that like, like they have these cutesy, trail names, you know, and it's kind of like, you know, I kind of roll my eyes.
00:32:55:10 - 00:33:14:14
Unknown
I'm making all sorts of people in New Hampshire. Well, just. It's an Appalachian Trail like culture thing. I worked on that trail. Yeah? Yeah. Did you have a trail name? My, cold Brook was my favorite one. Oh, there. Oh, did I have a trail name? Yeah, the people at the did well know I worked on the I worked, I was trail crew.
00:33:14:15 - 00:33:34:18
Unknown
Okay, so you are. You weren't. You know, I wasn't like, you know what? The hikers really? Gypsy Longstocking. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. That's exactly so they said. And here's the thing about your trail nickname. You can't, like, choose it. Like somebody somewhere along the trail is going to give you a name. Maybe, you know, it's kind of almost earned.
00:33:34:20 - 00:34:00:11
Unknown
And I think being known as a conservationist, there's a lot of self-proclaimed conservationists out there. But I think it's your body of work that gets recognized and and that title gets ascribed to you by people who who are doing the conservation work, which you are. They recognize that. So which is kind of the powerful connection that you and Carol enjoyed.
00:34:00:11 - 00:34:21:15
Unknown
You observed what Carol's done his whole life. Like, that's the guy who's doing it. And so when I think of the long trail that took you really kind of almost post-career, although you still that ended up here and. Yeah. And what you're going to be known for is, is, when a lot of people are saying, where's the beach?
00:34:21:15 - 00:34:53:01
Unknown
And, you know, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm unplugging from all this around me. You have you have really built the and are continuing to build the legacy that will that will, will, be what you've been known for, you know. Well. Yeah. You know, the other day we had meat eater through at the farm, and I'm really excited about this project.
00:34:53:11 - 00:35:18:06
Unknown
Because it's not hunting, right. It's about the farm, and it's about conservation, about some of the stuff that we've done. And part of what I showed them. And we'll do this on the podcast, too, when we talk about, like, stuff that we've conservation, projects that have gone well, and then ones that didn't go well. And like I was telling you about that pine plantation or that oak plantation, it was supposed pines are all supposed to be gone now.
00:35:18:06 - 00:35:39:01
Unknown
It should be just big, tall oak trees there. And then the challenges and all of that, it's it's it's a constant process. Yeah. It's a never ending thing. When I was a young, when I were a younger man's close, to quote Billy Joel, which is not someone that I quote very often, but, when I were a younger man's clothes, it kind of goes along with that.
00:35:40:16 - 00:36:09:14
Unknown
The thing about, one and feeling like, inadequate because I wasn't an expert at something. Right. And that was that was such good advice that I got from that professor when I were a younger man's clothes. I felt like, that it I did it. There's a story of why that's in my my head, but I also, I mean, it wasn't.
00:36:09:16 - 00:36:33:03
Unknown
I thought you get to a point, and then you done. I mean, I want to get, like, start talking about the previous administration, like my friend John calls his ex-wife. And I used to describe mine, but, previous administrations have become like, you gotta like it. And I gotta give that up to my buddy brother John. Oh, that's funny.
00:36:36:20 - 00:36:51:03
Unknown
I mean, one of the things that I took from that relationship was I was like, are you going to be happy now? I mean, like, are we done with all of this? And she goes, no. And I really learned that, I mean I think everybody learns this eventually, or at least I think thinking people do that.
00:36:51:03 - 00:37:07:20
Unknown
It's not you're not, you're not trying to get to the station because the station is you dead. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. I mean, it's the journey along the way and the things that you're doing. And, we were shooting with this crew the other night and was they were saying goodbye. This is funny. You guys all get to meet my dog, Mark.
00:37:07:20 - 00:37:25:22
Unknown
Eventually they were. I'll spend more time saying goodbye to Mark than they were me, but, And they were, like a very nice dog. Yeah, well, he said, I mean, he's he's charming. He really is. You know, the only person who's not as charmed by him as everyone else is Steve and Ella. You know, I love Steve, but you know, it's not material.
00:37:25:22 - 00:37:47:10
Unknown
Dogs, though, is pretty funny. So, anyway, they said something about keep up the good work or something like that. As we were parting and as I waved, I said something that I say often, and I would challenge everyone else to do this. To do what you I'm doing what I can, where I'm at with what I've got.
00:37:48:01 - 00:38:15:01
Unknown
And I think when you start thinking about wanting to do things to be good in conservation and do good things, that's it. Lindsay, our dear friend talks about doing the work and if there's somebody who does the work she's it. Right. But doing the work of conservation doesn't mean like you have to be, I don't know, like Ryan Callahan and, you know, saving the world.
00:38:15:17 - 00:38:36:16
Unknown
What a guy. Yeah. He really is. I mean, he's he's, I there's no one I admire more than Ryan Callahan and all of this, that strong words. Do what you can with what you've got, where you're at. We were talking, yesterday, and in fact, I was listening to our our conversation as I was driving out here this morning.
00:38:36:18 - 00:38:55:15
Unknown
You were talking about the 5000 square foot prairie that you did, and you're like, kind of analyzing it, and, well, you know, I probably should have killed it for long or, you know, had it covered for longer and all of that. But what a great thing that 5000 square foot, which is the size of a. Yeah, eighth of an acre, basically eighth of an acre was a lawn.
00:38:55:20 - 00:39:31:19
Unknown
Yeah. But rather than having lawn, you've put it in prairie and you were talking about how there's butterflies and bees and all of this and bobwhite quail. Yeah. That is a great example of doing what you can with what you've got, where you're at, and more of that, please. You know more of that, please. Yeah. Well, one of the so the philosophical side of this, which we got to be careful with because that can turn into a never ending, pit where we finally get what are we talking about?
00:39:31:19 - 00:39:56:03
Unknown
We get. But, you know, I've thought a lot about. The symptoms of a of a culture that is so materialistic and so, instant grad vacation. I want good things, but I don't really want to suffer for them. You know, those are all symptoms. But there's a lot of good things going on in our society. Yep, yep.
00:39:56:03 - 00:40:21:18
Unknown
We don't want to overlook those. But conservation by default it's you're fighting from your back. So you got you're going to assess the problems. And one that I think has not because of, you know, a lot of the conservation problems that we've ended up with have been because of ignorance, some cases greed, just bad decisions, bad policy, those things.
00:40:21:20 - 00:40:51:01
Unknown
But some of them, I think just happen unintentionally. Or maybe there was good meaning behind it, but it, it didn't go the next step that it needs. And one of those things is, I think a lot of people we talked about this yesterday in a previous conversation, the whole hunting is conservation thing. The idea that I can call myself a conservationist because I'm making my financial contribution for my hunting license that I get allows me to go and extract a resource.
00:40:51:03 - 00:41:27:13
Unknown
Yeah. And because going back to what Lindsay said about doing the work, I think that that is so important, whether it's through advocacy work, you know, sending out letters and calling, politician and who who make the policy that determine on large scale what, what's going to happen, on a lot of different issues. Or maybe it's, putting a prairie in your yard or doing good timber management practices or, getting on board with research backed animal disease mitigation efforts.
00:41:27:13 - 00:41:49:17
Unknown
Let me give a little example. That's, of what you're talking about that we had here. So we, dad has had always been very I know was very lenient about who hunts on the farm. You know, he tried to be careful. He let his friends go first and stuff like that. But honestly, we had, like, strangers drive in from out of state just because they met all you do, you know?
00:41:49:17 - 00:42:07:07
Unknown
Yeah. And it sure looks like a lot of pheasants live. Yeah, that was just a nice guy. Just. You bring him some Budweiser. He late? So. Well, we started sharing the land. He was a Budweiser guy. He was. And then when he got older, came out, I became a blue moon. Yeah, I became a blue moon. Yeah. Yep.
00:42:07:09 - 00:42:26:19
Unknown
Well, well, he never tasted Spotted Cow. Obviously. No, dad bought it. He. I'm not kidding. There was a guy who drove around the community, and the guy would go from farmer to farmer. 550 5:00 Jackie, take 15 minute breaks. Why? They call him 5:00 Jack now, because he showed up at 5:00, but it was always 5:00 when he showed up.
00:42:28:03 - 00:42:44:14
Unknown
By the end of the day, you showed up to these farmers at 3 or 4:00. This message is plastered. He says that beer after beer. Beer. So dad would always have his cheap, you know, Budweiser with, with 5:00 Jack. And he usually showed up about late at one time when I was young, it was late morning, and then it ended up being early afternoon.
00:42:44:14 - 00:43:01:13
Unknown
Well, so dad lets people come and on the farm. Well, he grabs on to sharing the land like culturally loves it. So this guy who had always let up on his land and dad's, well, you know, we're doing this chair in length. And to dad, you're giving up a half day of work. To him, that's nothing. He's like whatever.
00:43:01:13 - 00:43:16:02
Unknown
And this guy's like, all right, well, is there any way I could pay you to get it out, to get out of doing the thing? And. And that kind of irritated dad, right? So, no, no, we got it. And you got to, work the day. That's that's the deal. And he said he was interested in the education side of it.
00:43:16:02 - 00:43:35:00
Unknown
Right. Well, isn't the, I'm sorry. Yeah. The story, because he started quietly for so long, I was like, is he asleep? Yeah. Yeah. So. But go ahead. Well. And then this guy, he, he comes back and says, well, how about this? What if I have one of my employees? Yeah, I'll pay one of my employees to go out there and work the day for me.
00:43:35:02 - 00:43:53:14
Unknown
And dad is like, now who's like, you know that? Wow. This is the first time I've heard that story. Oh, yeah. It's really something. It's like, what would what would the land got gotten out of it? The same thing, kind of. What would we have gotten out of it as a business? Kind of the same thing. But dad was like, no, it's a mindset that's not yeah, that's the point.
00:43:53:14 - 00:44:15:17
Unknown
That's totally against the more you want wanted the conservation ethic passed on to yeah, to that person as opposed to, yeah, well that's a good idea, but I'll just pay for the guy. I had hunted like six years for free. Just 150 acre field over that we have of of tallgrass prairie, hunted every year for free and, and, didn't want to give up a half day's work to get another day of hunting.
00:44:15:17 - 00:44:43:07
Unknown
Oh, crazy. That really is. And, I'm it's almost like we're going to have to have a Carol segment in every podcast or something, but, I mean, that's really wise, but that is the point, right? I mean, part of sharing the land and part of. Hunting is conservation is. Yeah, it's not just extracting or paying the buying your license.
00:44:43:07 - 00:45:05:13
Unknown
Right. To briefly go back to the whole thing about deer and said, well, I want a license. I mean, what it doesn't entitle you to a deer, but it really kind of got that way in Wisconsin for a while. So, this idea and what Carol said there just makes me admire him even more, because that is the point, right?
00:45:05:15 - 00:45:27:09
Unknown
Is that there is more to this. You are a member of the biotic community. You're not just, an interloper who comes in and takes in and leaves. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You know, and, I mean, it's a little bit of human nature, right? Because in I mean, that's pretty much what we did in America, right? We just kind of came in and took what we wanted.
00:45:27:09 - 00:45:50:08
Unknown
If something was in our way or someone was our way, or we took it away from them, unless they were one of us. Yeah. And yeah, we're not going to go down that road. But today anyway. But yeah, that's really it. And I'm fortunate, man. I'm really fortunate. You know, my family's property has been in my, my family for 120 plus years now.
00:45:50:10 - 00:46:17:03
Unknown
And I had this other good fortune of becoming friends with with Steve Vanilla. I know when I met Carol, I never met anyone quite like him, but I know a lot of people were cut from the same cloth. You know, that they, they, they want to contribute. And I mean, when folks are making content, what is your contribution to conservation?
00:46:17:03 - 00:46:34:10
Unknown
I mean, that's kind of a question, right? When people are filling out their conservation resume and sharing the land to try to find when we then we try to match them with the landowner for access. That's really the core question is what is your contribution? And you might be a new hunter goes on, I don't know. Yeah.
00:46:34:12 - 00:47:00:03
Unknown
Well, part of this is we're looking to help you learn, and part of what we do is encourage people will get to I mean, there's all kinds of opportunities, right, to, to go to a field day or, go to your extension or something like that. And, and here at Hoxie, what you require people to do is isn't really manned space flight.
00:47:00:03 - 00:47:17:23
Unknown
It's like, take this dull shovel and go out there and try to. Oh, that was just me. But go out there and we'll show you what we need to do. And then isn't that process. This is Indian grass. This is bluestem. We're leaving the Indian grass. We're taking bluestem. And right there a lesson was learned, right? Yeah.
00:47:19:03 - 00:47:43:07
Unknown
And then they made that contribution. They dug that bluestem out and then Indian grass was left. And you can't tell me that those folks were standing there going wow. I mean they had to learn what the difference was right. Yeah. And so you're identifying that you've, you've, you've contributed and those guys said the same thing that when we did that the Onyx film that is lovely, that really features Carol.
00:47:43:07 - 00:48:03:16
Unknown
And then we followed up with the interview with him that but those sharing land cooperators that you have, they clearly had they, they, they, they, you could see the pride and that we came out and we did something about this. I felt terrible. I mean, I dug some bluestem, don't get me wrong, or, you know, dug some bluestem.
00:48:03:18 - 00:48:24:01
Unknown
But man, when we came back, and hunted, I didn't take five steps in the prairie and a rooster got up and I shot it like, well, my work here is done. Did you get that? I looked at the cameraman and he's like, yeah. And, we hunted some more and stuff, but I actually felt kind of bad about that because, I mean, I almost felt like, that I wasn't.
00:48:24:03 - 00:48:45:19
Unknown
I can remember where you're digging right here. There's great spots. I just always picture him with that. That, shirt just soaked in sweat all the way. I couldn't believe the caliber of work, man. Yeah, we got to show up that day. I couldn't believe it. Yeah, and and we continued to benefit from. Yeah. Yeah. Many times.
00:48:45:19 - 00:49:04:12
Unknown
Yeah. Well, that's and that's one of the things. And it was quiet work, right? Yeah. It's not like you got chainsaws running or driving a tractor and all that kind of stuff. I actually we've done some work on my place. Where in that pine plantation. We've gone in and limbed the trees. Well, of course, if we went in with pole pruners and chainsaws and of course, then that becomes the whole thing, too.
00:49:04:12 - 00:49:23:12
Unknown
I really want people who don't want anything about a chainsaw running a chainsaw. Yeah, but so then we encourage people to go out and learn how to run a chainsaw at a class where you it's a chainsaw safety class, like doing a hunter safety class, right? Yeah. Interesting. Anyway, but we're out there and they're doing it with loppers and hand saws and that sort of stuff.
00:49:23:12 - 00:49:42:08
Unknown
And now you get this group of people moving through the pines. And I stood back at a couple of different points and they're all talking. So all these friendships are forming. They're also talking about what do you think. You know the animals really use this and well I think Doug said that, you know the turkeys like to come in here.
00:49:42:08 - 00:50:07:22
Unknown
And now deer travel through here and there's and I mean they're like explaining to each other what they knew at that point. Yeah. You know about like thermal cover and that kind of stuff. And I mean, most of these folks were not particularly experienced hunters or conservationists. I was talking about my friend Pat Durkin earlier, and I know he's written this before, so I want to make sure that he gets credit.
00:50:08:00 - 00:50:42:04
Unknown
And he said, I know expert whitetail hunters who don't know what kind of tree they're hanging their deer stand. And I think those people are becoming more and more rare thanks to people like our mutual friend Mark Kenyon, who's really encouraging people to be getting more involved with conservation. And and I think that folks like, Tony Peterson, who's with the meat eater group and some of your friends, that they are looking at it and from a more holistic approach and I, I like the direction that hunting is.
00:50:42:04 - 00:51:10:07
Unknown
Conservation is going. Yeah. So yeah. Good trajectory. Still some ground to cover. Yeah, yeah. We, I've been pleased with got him. The majority of the hunters that, I interact with, and, I don't know, there's probably some sort of natural vetting that happens if they're talking to me anyway. But the I mean, they're like, I don't be on this guy.
00:51:10:09 - 00:51:35:12
Unknown
Yeah. I don't care how many species got it. This is getting weird. Yeah. Usually. Well, no, you know, they they seem to care and and can I've talked about this. There's like this evolution of the hunter. I want a buck. I want a big buck. I want good habitat. I want to help the next generation.
00:51:35:17 - 00:51:54:19
Unknown
I want good habitat for buck. So, wait, maybe that's not the right goal I want. Yeah, good habitat for the ecosystem, the ecosystem. And then at some point, they start caring about the next generation, start giving back to young hunters. And there seems to be this evolution. Now, what's really cool is it seems that more people are having that evolution younger, you know, sooner.
00:51:54:21 - 00:52:23:08
Unknown
Yeah. And I think that's vitally important. And I think that's a bit of a, I mean, I think that's great because there are people who are older who are recognizing that, that that is the kind of thing that needs to be passed on. And I just think that we're in this time when it went from like on our farm again, be an example where hunting was just something that we got to do when we got the work done in the fall, wasn't the reason for having the land.
00:52:23:10 - 00:52:33:00
Unknown
Well, then suddenly you have people. That reason for having the land is for hunting or recreation or whatever. And maybe you think that shift was.
00:52:33:02 - 00:52:50:16
Unknown
Like you think we were just we were just wealthy enough as a nation to even be able to think that way, or to buy land and have it for hunting. Yeah. Well, yeah, that's exactly what it is. And there's, I mean, there's so many that's that's a big part of what it is. There's so many layers to that, you know, hunting media and all of that too.
00:52:50:19 - 00:53:11:07
Unknown
But it definitely recognizes more and more recognition. And I in big part to, to, I think to meat eater, of helping to recognize that that kind of discussion is really, really important. And up you know.
00:53:11:09 - 00:53:29:23
Unknown
And there's a downside of somebody from a way, as we call them, near me coming in and buying land only for recreation, because it seems like those folks, first thing they do is put up a no trespassing sign. Yeah. Whether they need it or not. In Wisconsin, you don't actually need to post. If you're on somebody's land without permission, you are trespassing.
00:53:31:14 - 00:53:36:15
Unknown
And, so,
00:53:36:17 - 00:54:03:02
Unknown
But evolutionarily and I think we probably talked about this before, but it's worth talking about again, I saw things change from these small farms that families were raised on, and that hunting was something you got to do and you got the work done. But the farm was there to be worked and and maybe, maybe we were listening to the land, but what were they people really doing was living off the land.
00:54:03:06 - 00:54:25:12
Unknown
There's that whole process living off the land, living on the land, living with the land, listening to the land, all that kind of stuff. And, in an area like ours where it's just not this farmland you guys have, there's more and more land that's being bought because people want a part of. Well, quite honestly, we have really good water.
00:54:26:01 - 00:54:54:18
Unknown
We have, immense, beautiful, beautiful place. And it's it almost lends itself more to that in its proximity to urban areas and bigger urban areas and things like that. But it's been a change. Yeah. What I have found is that people who have the wherewithal to come out and buy a piece of property tend to, want to learn more about, well, how do I make this property better?
00:54:54:20 - 00:55:19:17
Unknown
They may be selfish about it. Yeah. So how do you define better? It depends. You're saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that. Right. And and so then it becomes a question of well how do we influence their thought process. I mean, if all they want to do is have more, more deer, well, then probably gonna have a problem. So if we can get them involved with the thinking about it in the processes and listening to experts and stuff, that we can be better off.
00:55:19:22 - 00:55:44:16
Unknown
I mean, it can be better off, and they tend to have the wherewithal to put into it. Yeah. You know, I made this funny, I think funny comments about we have nicer tractors now than when we were farming. And we couldn't afford to paint our barn when we were farming. Yeah. And, and and and you know, and it's our place places an example our creek bottom was why shallow dirty cricks.
00:55:44:17 - 00:56:12:11
Unknown
Because we pushed the land to pay for itself. Yeah. And you could see how that could continue. I've seen folks from away by properties that were, you know, kind of worn out small farms who've now turned them into much better places for the biotic community. You know, it's not all one or the other. You know, in this world of.
00:56:12:13 - 00:56:32:05
Unknown
Red or blue and black and white and right and wrong, based on whatever. There's just a lot of awful lot of space in the middle, which is one of the things we talked about. Yeah. Well, maybe for a subtitle of this as well. And. Yeah, being open to the, you know, to the possibilities, I've, I've got a question along these lines.
00:56:32:05 - 00:56:54:18
Unknown
I saw I'm going to leave their name out it they said it publicly, but just say I don't want to put a bias in your head before, but I saw somebody I know, I don't think. No, no, in fact, I know that you don't know, but, the, on a podcast, they were saying that people going in and buying 40s is actually really bad for conservation because people are.
00:56:54:18 - 00:57:22:09
Unknown
Man, they're really I, I love how Ken's like, man, I just got three. But each time he kills three, they're on Doug's phone so that all their got you satisfied. Oh, man. Look, look guys, we're trying it. We're trying to deal with the fly problem by getting a studio. Well we'll see. The, So they were saying that buying 40 someone splitting, 240 in the 40s or a 160 in the 40s and splitting it up is actually really bad for conservation.
00:57:22:09 - 00:57:45:23
Unknown
And I remember listening to that and thinking, I need to ask ducks. I don't know, it's out of my. I have an answer. Yeah. Please. That's called personalization. So when you're personalizing land, especially in an area like again, where I am where it's kind of a well, my county is 85% deer habitat. You know, a lot of it's farmland, but it's because it's edge and all that.
00:57:45:23 - 00:58:05:22
Unknown
So by breaking, let's say, like if we were going to break up my family's farm, the how we could maximize the amount of money at least just used to be the case that we break it up into ten 40s, put a road through it, and, 40 acres is a lot of a lot of land to most people.
00:58:06:00 - 00:58:41:10
Unknown
I have 30 acres adjoining our farm that quite honestly, if we didn't have the farm, that that 30 acres would be plenty for me and my wife. We love that little chunk of land. But what that does, personalization leads to fractional ization of the habitat and things like. And all of a sudden there's a house there that, or a road there and that, fractional as a fractional sizes help me with fragments or fragments, fractional ization of the habitat, the landscape of travel corridors, of that sort of thing.
00:58:41:10 - 00:59:04:18
Unknown
So now all of a sudden you're creating more islands. So in a bigger sense, the connectivity of an area is, threatened by that sort of thing. So, we obviously there are some big cons to doing that, but like, I know Kent gets paid. He can't buy a 400, you know, but most bees are. Can I buy the way.
00:59:04:21 - 00:59:35:19
Unknown
Yeah, I mean, I there's no way that's a here's a it's related to this in the 19, late 1970s, early 1980s when I was coming of age, I could have bought our farm. Wow. From my parents on a land contract. And sure, there had been some finagling done. I mean, I have them an old friend who bought his family's farm after he went to college for two years.
00:59:35:21 - 00:59:50:05
Unknown
He only got grades good enough so he could play basketball. He went to the JuCo, and then the second at the end of the second semester when he passed, and he was still eligible for the fourth semester. He never went to class because basketball season was still going. He didn't care. He knew what he was going to do.
00:59:50:07 - 01:00:17:21
Unknown
He was going to go back and become a and be a dairy farmer. And during the 1980s, he bought his parents farm on a land contract and he bought property adjoining him, two farms adjoining him. And though that land paid for itself and it appreciated an incredible way. Yeah. All right. So, I mean, 250, $300 an acre, that land is now worth 12.5, $15,000 an acre.
01:00:17:23 - 01:00:45:20
Unknown
Yet the rental rates on it are still at about what it was. Rental rates were when it was about 3000 to $4000 now. Yeah. So what happened was land has appreciated not because of its value as cropland. Whereas I think that it's still very associated out here. Right. To what what can be raised on it over a 10 or 15 year period of time or whatever the timetable is.
01:00:45:22 - 01:01:09:15
Unknown
So much of the land that we're talking about like Scott, rough land right where it was and there's, you know, there's no economic value to it. So you could here's a great example. Land, rental rates around me used to be about, 125, $250 an acre. And so that meant that land was worth about $3,000 an acre, right?
01:01:09:15 - 01:01:32:19
Unknown
Four and a half to where? 4% to 5% return on an annual basis. Gross revenues, that land rental rate is still the same. It's about $1,500 an acre, but that land is now selling for eight, nine, ten, $12,000 an acre because of this other pressure on it, people wanting to who are buying it for different reasons.
01:01:32:19 - 01:02:01:14
Unknown
Yeah. So there's not an economic way, you know, to get that return on investment to be able to. It's interesting because ROI does has a lot less to do with why people own land. Now that's the point. Yeah, but so you think we're in a land bubble, boy? I'll tell you what, man. I remember when land got to $20 an acre on me and I'm like, Holy crap, I can't believe people are paying that kind of money for this land.
01:02:01:16 - 01:02:25:09
Unknown
And it's only gotten more. Yeah, I mean, it levels off, but eventually it goes up. Yeah. Are is is is going to drop, I mean, I don't know enough about like. The grain, you know, the Great Plains, this, this kind of land to know whether, you know, whether it's just totally overpriced or totally leveraged or or what.
01:02:25:11 - 01:02:46:11
Unknown
But when there's I've done analysis of properties for people, you know, ten years ago, I was doing a fair amount of that. And a part of it is, is okay, well, here's you know, there's two things when you buy a piece of land when it comes to what your PNL is going to look like. If you're worried about profit loss, and it's like, here's what your revenues are and here's what your costs are.
01:02:46:13 - 01:03:13:21
Unknown
And so some of the costs of especially of owning non farmland is the cost of the taxes. So because property taxes oddly enough on the non productive land is extremely in Wisconsin at least extremely higher than the cost of that like the, of the, of the farmland. Because there's a tax burden that has to be paid by somebody.
01:03:13:21 - 01:03:36:04
Unknown
And then it comes kind of comes down to, well, who's got the strongest lobby? And I mean, we know it's the biggest, strongest, the biggest lobby in state of Iowa is and quite honestly, it's the same in Wisconsin. And it's not the woodland owners Association. Right. All right. Yeah. And I'll let you figure out who it is.
01:03:36:04 - 01:04:00:01
Unknown
And therefore I'm trying to I'm trying to stay alive. We don't need to say there. No, no, but I mean, there's like some, some powerful entities in Iowa that one things to stay how they are and. Yeah. Right. And and benefit from them staying well. Yeah. And benefit from it and then act like they somehow are the paragon of virtue that they're not.
01:04:00:01 - 01:04:06:12
Unknown
There's just so much to all of this, right? And, I mean, we're not providing.
01:04:06:14 - 01:04:12:00
Unknown
We're not providing a whole lot of facts here. Right? It's like, well, Doug's not an expert about. Well, I'm not
01:04:12:00 - 01:04:19:04
Unknown
Oh, man. I won't lie, this is been awesome. And we really appreciate having you for everyone listening, this is a taste of what we're going to have.
01:04:19:04 - 01:04:49:01
Unknown
We have a lot more topics. We've got lists of topics we want to hear from on and, and on future episodes. But Doug, thanks so much. And yeah, yeah, I'm I'm excited about this. It's never felt right before with anybody else. Like, sure, let's do a podcast. Right. And I great credit to you guys for, and Carol.
01:04:49:01 - 01:05:04:23
Unknown
I mean, Carol is always going to be hanging around here with us, you know? Yeah. That that we have this connection and that we can have these conversations. And I think there's going to be times where we're going to be a little prickly with each other. But that's the nature of it, too. And that's a part.
01:05:04:23 - 01:05:35:22
Unknown
I mean, if we're just comfortable all the time, I think it's. That can be difficult. Surface level. Yeah. But I really appreciate this. And look forward to, more. And, as I said earlier, let's if you have something you want us to talk about or you have some specific questions to me about anything, really, short of who cuts my hair, we can, you know, I would like to address those, and maybe we'll have a segment where we're, you know, we're making this up as we.
01:05:35:22 - 01:06:00:19
Unknown
Where can they where can they send them? I don't know, all right. You could send them to social at the Prairie farm.com. There you go. And we'll, we'll, we'll get them over to, Doug and Lindsay. Yeah. And put it, you know, put in the, in the, the what do you call subject line? Yeah. Question for, for, listening to the land or two question for Doug or a comment or comment.
01:06:00:19 - 01:06:29:14
Unknown
The other thing is comment. Don't be afraid to comment and say, all right, get to the point or whatever it happens to be. I mean, I, I've developed some thick skin over the years. I'm I yeah, I appreciate feedback. So man. Well we love it. And and Justin great. As you guys all know this is not my phrase at all, but the mentality driving us today, the mirror we're holding all of our thoughts and ideas up to is a phrase that Doug Doeren came up with, or maybe was given to him from beyond.
01:06:29:16 - 01:06:31:23
Unknown
It's not ours. It's just our turn.
