Matt Hatala (00:00.098) Matt Atala, owner of Prairie Rose Farms, and this is the Prairie Farm Podcast. I'm Steve Hansen. I'm Jill Bebout. Chad Gravy. Nicolas Lirio (00:05.262) I'm Mark Kenyon. Kent Boucher (00:06.54) I'm Doctor Julie Mechan. Nicolas Lirio (00:10.946) My name's Jeremy French. I'm Laura Walter. Kent Boucher (00:13.048) Carol Hoxbergen, owner of Hoxie Native Seeds, and this is the Prairie Farm Podcast. This is Hal Herring, Back Country Hudders and Anglers Podcast. Nicolas Lirio (00:22.826) Skip Sly, Iowa Whitetail, Valerie Van Coten, State Historical Society of Iowa. Matt Hatala (00:27.916) Dr. Matt Helmer at Iowa State University. Nicolas Lirio (00:30.36) My name's Kyle Lauberger with the Native Habitat Project. Kent Boucher (00:33.218) I'm Judd McCullum, I appeared out of the wilderness and this is the Prairie Farm Podcast. Nicolas Lirio (00:37.548) Welcome to the Prairie Farm Podcast. At Hoxy Native Seeds, our mission is to provide native seed and education for landowners and land managers that care about their ground. So the education, we're doing that through the podcast and interviewing experts and the stuff we put out through our website. But the native seed that we provide, whether we grew it or we work with other producers that grew it, we are here to provide that for you. It's what keeps the lights on for us. And it's what we love to do. Most of our seeds grown right here on our farm, hoxynative seeds.com. and if you need a little help with consultation, not sure what to put on your ground, we would be happy to help you with that as well. Give us a call, hoxynative seeds.com. Matt, I know this gets a little vulnerable, but before we jump into pigs, you had a heck of an upbringing. yeah. And and like one of Ken and I's favorite parts of your story. I mean, we like you as a person a lot, but one of our the reason we keep coming Kent Boucher (01:34.155) Matt's fun hang. Nicolas Lirio (01:35.148) Yeah, he's he's an awesome dude. Is you like your story's incredible and it's currently unraveling, right? It's currently going on. We're we're here in the middle Matt Hatala (01:44.289) Where is it? Kent Boucher (01:45.262) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:46.73) Like the stories unfolding. Yeah, yeah. And but bring us back to me, 'cause you had pretty what the psychologists would call an adverse childhood. Matt Hatala (01:57.772) Yeah, I've got some kind of strange lore, I guess you could say. And to me it's not that strange because I've, you know, grown up with this my whole life, but so I was actually born in in South Korea. my biological parents were both in the military. My mom was in the army and my dad was a marine. so the apple didn't fall far from the tree there. I was, yep. so my my father had gotten my mother pregnant after a night at the e club, the enlisted club. Kent Boucher (02:17.262) Yeah, 'cause you were in the Marines for a while. Matt Hatala (02:27.84) on base and somehow she was able to disguise that pregnancy and take leave and instead of coming home she went into the city of Seoul, South Korea and had me there. Kent Boucher (02:43.098) so you y you have do you have like a South Korean birth certificate since you weren't born on base? Matt Hatala (02:48.602) So when I was seven years old, I got my citizenship. I had a green card until I was I think like six or seven. I have a younger sister who was adopted from South Korea as well. So and she is South Korean. I'm not. My parents were both Irish Italian. So but yeah, you'd be surprised how many times I get that question. That's the only reason. That's what I tell people. Like I w I'd be, you know, up there right now. That's my fallback right there. Kent Boucher (03:06.998) You can't run for president. Kent Boucher (03:12.526) I just Nicolas Lirio (03:16.886) Mm. Matt Hatala (03:17.272) But yeah, so I I had a green card until I was like seven years old. so I was born in South Korea. I was put in a foster home over there, where I I started the first eight months of my life and then was adopted to to Iowa. and the funny thing that I always tell people about this is back in the eighties they they didn't have, you know, like pictures of who you were adopting or there wasn't a bunch of information. So my adoptive parents had no idea that they were getting a Caucasian baby. Kent Boucher (03:50.252) Wow, that'd be a big surprise. Was your name already Matt Hatala at that time? Matt Hatala (03:57.294) My name was Kim Sung Min. Yeah. So it has a there's a picture of me as a baby with a placard. Yeah, it's wild. so I get there and they find out that yeah, you get a cockadian so I always joke, I'm like, yeah, they were the a hundredth adoptee that month, so they got the white baby. It's like special consolation prize or something. Kent Boucher (04:01.095) What? Kent Boucher (04:21.422) Ha ha ha. Matt Hatala (04:23.342) But yeah, so I I was I was adopted to Waverly, Iowa, where I grew up my whole life and then went into the military and did four years there and then was really, you know, all over the place. I lived in California, South Carolina, Michigan, Iowa, back and forth to Michigan again. until I really, you know, started getting into the ag industry, when I worked up in Michigan and you know, kinda fell in love with with the idea of of growing stuff myself and being a part of that that process and then having a son really drove that home even more. to where we first started off before we were doing pigs. We were growing produce in a hoop house that I had built in our backyard and selling vegetables and stuff like that. So yeah, it's it's been a I guess a strange path all my Nicolas Lirio (05:13.326) My grandma when when I was like two years old, my mom and biological dad gotten divorced, and my grandma s she swears this is true. I don't know, I wasn't really around or cognizant, but she says that she prayed every day for a couple years that my brother and I would be raised on a farm. Even though my mom is like not a farm. Really? No, yeah, just prayed that I'd be raised on a farm. Lo and behold, yeah. Yeah, I couldn't get away. Dude, if you get attached to a farm, I'll tell your son this here right now. Kent Boucher (05:13.496) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (05:41.964) You don't get away. Not because your dad tricks you and keeps you there or anything like that. It sits in your blood and it just boils there. Low a low simmer for years. Matt Hatala (05:51.224) Well we were talking about that earlier, you know, like this is I I hope one day that he wants to, you know, take this over, but it's not a pressure thing, you know what I mean? I think we we all saw so many kids growing up in high school that were forced to be on the farm. The first thing they did was get far away from Kent Boucher (06:05.631) Yeah, not not not just not farm, move out of the state. Yeah, go on. Nicolas Lirio (06:10.24) I don't know. Well I was so I graduated in twenty fifteen. I was a little later than you guys and I if you didn't want to farm by then you didn't have to. You didn't have to. There were very few super poor barely making it by farmers. It was either commercial ag and they didn't really need your help, or they r or the sons that really wanted to be around and really wanted to farm and skip class to be farming. You know, I didn't see as much of now to be fair I had a s really small class, but I don't know. Matt Hatala (06:37.262) Yeah, I just remember, you know, growing up in high school, the kids that did have to be on the farm, it was never like something they seem to enjoy, you know. Whether that was for this, that or the other reason. and I'm not saying every day is super enjoyable out here. We have our days. But it's always been, you know, like, hey, this is my dream and you know, y if you want it someday it can be yours too. But if you wanna go yeah be a chemist somewhere, do something I don't you know I mean, whatever you wanna do, that's Nicolas Lirio (07:05.376) So fine. Well that I d what did you say your name was Kim? Matt Hatala (07:09.6) Well see, I don't know if it was read backwards or forward. I don't know if it was Min Sung Kim or Kim Sung Min because the way that they write over there as far as Nicolas Lirio (07:20.576) Okay, so so from Kim Sung min to Hog Farmer, y you joined the military. We've we've bought g go back and listen. We've talked almost since the beginning. Matt Hatala (07:31.65) Wasn't there? Kent Boucher (07:32.246) Were didn't you do some hemp farming in there too at one time? Matt Hatala (07:35.19) Yeah, so that's when I got into the ag industry Was it in Michigan? Michigan, yeah. So we were helping convert traditional or conventional corn and soy acres into hemp production. Kent Boucher (07:37.902) Is that in Michigan? Kent Boucher (07:47.884) And the market basically just never never took off, right? Nicolas Lirio (07:51.242) Even which is crazy 'cause Rogan himself was pushing hemp and it still didn't take off. Matt Hatala (07:56.488) It was one of those things that yeah, it was it was starting to grow. and my intention was to move back to Iowa, because the legislation was coming around in the farm bill the next year for Iowa to be able to include it. Or I'm not the farm bill, I'm sorry, but there was legislation coming out the year after it got legalized in Michigan that was gonna allot Iowa the same opportunity. No is Kent Boucher (08:16.544) Was this for the the THC value or for the like fiber? Matt Hatala (08:21.74) C B D. It was all it was all C B D production. So no THC production. the fiber market, especially at this time, this would have been like two thousand eighteen, nineteen, it wasn't there. And even still now, like it's just even though Nicolas Lirio (08:34.606) People swear by it. There's a there's a t shirt company right now that's going ballistic on Instagram with ads on like they use hemp or something and and but what why so it's po it's getting more popular. Why did what happened to the market? Why weren't you able to make a go at it? Matt Hatala (08:48.834) Well, i when Iowa got the opportunity to open up for production, the legislation surrounding it was so restrictive that it didn't allow for a good opportunity into the hemp market and that's why, you know, you don't see it here in Iowa. We we don't see hemp being grown at mass scale here in Iowa because it's not set up to do so. I think a bond Nicolas Lirio (09:16.002) I wonder if there were entities that only wanted corn and bean and so they lobbied they're like, Well, we'll legalize it, but l so many restrictions that it's basically moat it's gate. Matt Hatala (09:24.992) I I think so. I I really do believe so because you look at I was I think the second or third largest hemp producer before World War Two, before it was banned. Like we were a powerhouse yeah. A lot of the rope and stuff that was made for World War Two, canvases, stuff like that was coming. Kent Boucher (09:41.472) I'm pretty sure we're actually not too far from where he did some running around in Iowa, but I'm pretty sure Jesse James, who grew up I think northern Missouri, I'm pretty sure that was one of the products h his family raised was was hemp for rope like you're Matt Hatala (09:56.898) Well and that's why you see all this quote unquote ditchweed, it's all the remaining hemp genetics that have maintained through the years living. Those are like OG hemp genetics from back in the day. Kent Boucher (10:04.95) That is fascinating. Nicolas Lirio (10:10.144) a conversation with someone who's really in the know about vast agricultural markets just r that it's his niche that's what he does and he was like dude I've seen people with 500 acres of hemp can't sell a pound of it so you tried hemp you're coming back to you're coming back to Iowa yeah you jump into hogs and we talked about that earlier but if it's okay I want to skip forward to the last 12 months or so and what's amazing to me is and I'm not trying to Matt Hatala (10:33.634) Yeah, absolutely. Nicolas Lirio (10:38.636) I'm not taking away from anyone. I'm just trying to add to you here that a lot of people who want to start farming and do they've got these success stories, they've got a hand up elsewhere. I I recognize that with myself. My hand up is that my dad, for 35 years before I jumped back into the farm, toiled away and made no money. Like that that was my hand up, right? Other people, they inherit land, they have another business that went really well, and so they come back and they've got, you know, $800,000 to jump in with. You know, there's all these things. You had zero. I I'm not trying to I'm not trying to say you were poor, but like you had zero. You're not far off, brother. Yeah. And and you come here and I came and visited almost two years ago. And my brother here is sleeping in a tent on this farm because he hadn't had a residence here yet. And and you were just like, whatever, to get the hogs to go. You're you work with the USDA with the USDA loan. Kent Boucher (11:32.204) Yeah, I remember you telling that story. You said you like looked around the corner and saw a tent popped up and you like It was right over Yeah, you like nudged you nudged man and you're like, You sleeping in there? Yeah. It's like Matt Hatala (11:38.03) In that corner, right? Nicolas Lirio (11:45.538) said I'll make it work, right? Like when was the last time people went and got an attent to make their agricultural products work? It was like eighteen sixty four. That was the last time that that happened. And so Kent Boucher (11:56.718) It's actually the James family, doesn't it? Matt Hatala (11:58.488) But to like go back, I mean, it it's kind of all ties in really well together, talking about like, you know, my my childhood and like I guess I've never had this thing built into me to think that like it can't be done or like you know, like within the first three months of my life, so many things had changed and like I guess my whole life I've just never had this like perspective of like what can and can't be done. It's more of just like what I think I can do. Yeah. you know, so I I didn't have that built into me be like I probably shouldn't do this or maybe there are some barriers that I won't enjoy 'cause it's I don't know. My life's been really all over the place and I think that things can sometimes, you know, happen for a reason or work out for a reason. And if we don't put ourselves in a position to let that happen, you're gonna let it pass you by regardless. So you might as well get in a tent and get out on the farm and what you can do, you know. Kent Boucher (12:46.2) I love that attitude. Nicolas Lirio (12:47.712) I mean astounding you bought how many hogs did you buy when you first got your first round? Matt Hatala (12:53.032) man, well to to the first time I bought two pigs off of Craigslist when I was raising in my backyard. And then we went from two to ten and then we went from ten to like forty. And now you guys just saw today we're we're well over a hundred now. I gotta get all rankled up and next week and count but Kent Boucher (12:59.872) Right. Kent Boucher (13:10.59) One a spot or a thing that we've highlighted in past interviews with you, but I I always like highlighting this part. It was a friend's parents who like trusted you and believed in you to let you use their land up in up in Waverley to get started, right? Matt Hatala (13:25.778) Yeah, it was a childhood friend that we grew up just down the road from each other and and then you know, w that farm was just as part of my childhood as as my house was. We were over there all the time. And when I first started, I quickly outgrew my my two acres my house. so I approached Joyce and Larry Kurtz from Waverley and they were amazing. They you know, th it was a Holstein farm that had been shut down. in the seventies and they continued on a a lamb operation for a while after that into the eighties. By the time I got there in the early nineties, pretty much everything was was done for. They still had a couple of of sheep on the farm, but it wasn't in production any longer. and it just kinda sat there you know, since probably the early nineties. So when I approached them about it, told them what I was doing, yeah, they believed in me. They they thought it was really cool and they actually gave me that lease for the first year without having to to pay anything. like hey, we like what you're doing, we appreciate it, you can use this entire space, just gotta be out by this date and you know, best of luck to you. Kent Boucher (14:28.92) Maybe. Nicolas Lirio (14:29.174) Amazing. I mean pr just props to them. The so Kent Boucher (14:33.762) That's what I want to say this. That's a fairly common, you know, when we have there's only one Matt Hatala story, of course. But when we when we hear of other other people that are are farming the hard way, a part of the story, and sometimes it's in bigger ways than others, right? Like in my own story of wanting to farm, I got a huge leg up. Carol, right? He he believed in me, brought me on, taught me how to do it. And I basically had Other than sweat, blood, sweat and tears, no financial responsibility to get going on farming, right? But there's almost always somebody who said, I'm going to give of myself to make this work for this other person. And the operations where that doesn't happen, it's because nobody was willing to do that. Nobody nobody who had the power to to either in a small way or in a huge way. help that pr individual along in in their journey to to being a farmer. They they they just nobody showed up to do that. Matt Hatala (15:39.264) Hundred percent. And I look back and there there's two people 'cause I don't I don't wanna make it seem like I haven't gotten a leg up. I I have gotten a leg up, not necessarily on the farming side, but on the like the product side. Yeah. My contact Justin Brunson, like that has opened the door. Kent Boucher (15:57.208) Just awesome. Shout out to that guy. Nicolas Lirio (15:59.369) How'd you connect with that dude? Matt Hatala (16:00.908) He found me on on social media when I was when I still had like Kent Boucher (16:03.956) He said you know how people are be like, I'm just a computer nerd or I'm a I'm a I'm a you know nineties rom com nerd or s you know, whatever the topic is, right? It's like okay, you you you like it a little bit. When when we met Justin and he called himself a meat nerd. Dude's a meat nerd. yeah, he made he Well yeah, and he and he's like showing us all these pictures of his his like freezer where he's got all this aging meat and stuff. Nicolas Lirio (16:23.119) Meat tastes like popcorn. Kent Boucher (16:31.886) He's like getting so giddy, you know, his blood pressure's going up while he's like talking about all the all this stuff. It's like you are a meat nerd. Matt Hatala (16:38.818) That has been the the biggest leg up for me. Outside of the Kurtzes taking a chance on me and and allowing me to run on on their their land that first year, I have gotten a big leg up and I wanna be honest about that too, because a lot of the doors that have been opened for me in restaurants and stuff like that, I can all, you know, trace back to my relationship with Justin. Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (16:58.24) I hear ya. I hear ya. But that didn't happen before you entered the pigs. Here's what here's what happened when you when you decide to enter pigs, you were a good guy. And those two people went, Matt's a good guy. I want to help him out. And then you did the work of putting yourself on social media and Justin found you. Like for instance, Skipsly and a ton of other people have helped us a ton. But they weren't helping us before we got started. So do they deserve credit? Absolutely. Does Justin deserve credit? Absolutely. But But the there was no relationship there before and you didn't br you didn't bring anything into it, if that makes sense. Matt Hatala (17:33.748) Right. I just I guess I wanna go b like when we're talking about people that had legs up and stuff like that, I just wanna be honest about anyone that I did have because especially when we're talking about something that may be conceived as like me promoting people getting into farming, which I think more people need to, but it's definitely a scary thing to do. And I wanna be upfront about like, hey, you know these these restaurants that I'm selling to and like this deal that I'm working in Colorado, like It's great and it can happen, but it's not like a normal situation. Like you shouldn't bank on that happening. So I just want to make sure that I'm throwing that out there so nobody looks at this and goes, well, Matt's been doing this for three years and he knows this and he knows that it's like I did have to do the work and I had to show up every day and do that, but that door wouldn't have been there for me to go through if it wouldn't have been for Nicolas Lirio (18:18.19) So so every year at Hoxinative Seeds, I'm gonna fight you on this because every year at Hoxy Native Seeds we get a giant order. And then every year at the end of the year I go, my or or several, several giant orders that it's like for a few months we really banked on that order, right? And every year I go, my goodness, without that giant order, you know, we're just not gonna, well, you we're not gonna be able to make it. I don't know what we're gonna this next year. Every year I have this little panic about it. And then every year another really big order comes in. And my my point with you is like, you are gonna find the doors. I think you think you got lucky. And and Matt, I'm telling you, dude, you didn't get lucky. You put in the work. Matt Hatala (18:56.682) Well and that's funny 'cause I like earlier when we were standing out there looking at the pigs and you lean over and you ask me it's like, Is this the most stressful time of your life? Kent Boucher (19:05.472) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (19:06.51) Yeah man it is. Matt Hatala (19:09.664) Is but the the But the the reason I'm able to smile and laugh about it to what you were saying, Nick, is because I'm starting to get there, right? I'm starting to have that belief in myself that like, hey, I don't see the path right now, or like it may look like, you know, there's only a five percent chance that this can work out, but like I've seen that before. You know, that my whole three years has been up and down in these points where, you know, you feel like that if I don't get this next big order in, where are we gonna be at? And I'm not saying that I'm at a point where I'm like, Kent Boucher (19:10.882) For reminding me here. Matt Hatala (19:38.444) I'm not worried about it, but I'm I'm not worried about it in the sense of I know that I'm gonna show up and do the work that needs to be done to figure it out, even if that isn't, you know, super, you know, present at this moment to see how clear, you know, that path is. Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (19:52.48) Right. so I wanna jump into something you're you're starting to hit on. And before I do that, I need to give a little spiel that I've given half on this podcast before. Kent's heard it several times. in order for any business, we're gonna step out of farming, in order for any business to succeed, you need to be good at two out of the following four things. Not one, two. You need to either be good at producing slash making, right? So making pork, growing corn, making coffee, making social media content. If you're a social media business person, you gotta be good at Making a thing. You the other one is design or taste. You have to have really good taste or design. For instance, my wife, she's she has really good taste. People come to our coffee shop because my wife's taste, they they can trust it. There's things like that. The other one is selling. So that's really good at marketing, really good at at sales. So you can either be really good at selling things online, or maybe you're really good at getting in with big producers and you're able to say, Hey, buy all of my pork. You know, have a have a big deal. That is good at selling. And then the last one is hunting. looking for opportunity. So when you hear about big business people investing in companies, that's their skill set. They're good at finding what do markets actually need, what are the people willing to spend money on. So that's hunting. Most farmers and we're so a lot of people are wanting to get out of conventional ag and then they go, but the system doesn't work for it. And I'm I'm here to tell you it's because farmers are usually, I want to give them credit, they're usually really good at making. They're good what what banks call operators or producers. They're good you know, they're good at that stuff. But they've had the privilege, because because it is a commodity, there's pros and cons, they've had the privilege of not having to get good at any of the other three. Not not small family farms. They they have to. You're really good at taste. People, look what's your social media handle? Matt Hatala (21:45.518) Prairie Rose Farms? Nicolas Lirio (21:46.382) Prairie Rose Farms, look this up. It might be the most beautiful Instagram social I've ever seen. No no joke, like the whole tile scheme, it's beautiful. And Matt Hatala (21:54.696) Like, it's the most beautiful pig Instagram out of all. Nicolas Lirio (21:57.55) Awesome Also if you go back to the beginning of my Instagram you can see a picture of a pig that I took on this farm a couple of years ago and it's my favorite picture I've ever taken. Right next to a picture of my wife who is probably that's that one's number one I should say. Kent Boucher (22:10.731) There you go. Nicolas Lirio (22:14.894) So anyway, the the your taste is really good. Thank you. And I I think you're getting good at selling and marketing, but people don't understand when they when they say, I want to get out of the system. The system made it so farmers don't have to be good at any of the other three things. They just have to be good at making. And so they don't understand they don't have to just get good at farming. They also and marketing or whatever other one you pick, let's say it's marketing and selling. That's a full-time job. So you have to be Do the full time full and a half time job of farming, which is a one and a half time job. And then you have to have the full-time job of marketing it. And you do that from four o'clock to eleven o'clock at night. Right. And so I think people just don't understand that that is how the system is made. And they don't understand you have to have two out of the four, not just one. And you've been working on that. That's why it's astounding to me. Like the fact that your social media is as beautiful as it is. Matt Hatala (23:04.43) Please. Nicolas Lirio (23:10.604) I w I don't know where you find time for that. Like I was just watching you hang out with the pigs and you're having to do work while you're here and I loved watching it, but I'm like, when does have time to make this amazing content? You know? How d how do you figure that out and what do you think of like was that a learning curve when you first got in that, I need to learn how to sell this stuff? Matt Hatala (23:27.986) So for me, since I was a kid, me and my friends used to make movies and stuff like that. So like filming stuff and editing stuff was always something I had an interest in. after I got out of the military I went to college for a while and visual communication was something that I studied there. So like even more in depth on like video editing and like how to make stuff look nice and sound editing and stuff like that. so I I I d I don't wanna make it sound like I'm just inherently like, I just it's so easy. I did have some training in it. But it really for me it was just about remembering Trying to put myself in the shoes of the audience, what would they want to see? Right? This may mean be monotonous for me. I do this every single day, but like would somebody else find this interesting? Or I try and think of it from the perspective of like if I was watching this. Like if I was watching this, would this be visually pleasing for me or this capture my attention? you know, a lot of stuff when we first started out was more me talking to the camera. And I still try and do some of that from time to time, but it's transitioning more of like. what Instagram used to be is just like beautiful art and pictures and stuff like that. And I just want videos of like the tranquility and like just the the the quote unquote vibe out here, you know? Nicolas Lirio (24:39.884) Now I feel like it's everybody it's just a bunch of ads of people trying to sell you e courses for whatever you're in. It's like tough. Kent Boucher (24:44.718) Mr. D. Yeah. Matt Hatala (24:47.064) That was so one of the biggest compliments I've ever gotten from one of my buddies was he's like, Yeah, man, you know and he's not the type of guy to really be on social media or anything like that. It's not like a part of his life. He's Yeah, I I really like your social media and I can tell you're not trying to be an influencer and I'm like, Yes, thank you. Like that is that is the furthest thing that I want to be out here. So I I hope it's never come off that way. I just always want to give people, you know, a perspective of not only you know, a small farm but pigs on pasture, you know, kind of what it takes to get here and and just what our day-to-day life kind of looks like sometimes. very sugar coated, right? You know, it is very surface level. We aren't getting too deep on anything, but that's why I like these opportunities where we can actually go in depth and talk more about it. Nicolas Lirio (25:27.2) If you if so with your the size of your operation you have going on right now, if you didn't have to do because you're doing marketing and selling really hard and you're doing hunting as best you can, hunting for those opportunities to put your put your product. and I I mean we don't want to sugarcoat it. His Instagram's beautiful, but like it's a grind to find a place. I feel like, you know, we've been called like that big prairie company. Our social following is bigger than our prairie company is, if that makes sense. Like it's it it's we grind every single day. Every single day on like And I c still call Kent like, I don't know, dude. Like, this is so hard. I don't I do where do how do we get this done? And but for you, if you took away having to do any of the other three things, hunting, selling, or using your taste to like make it look beautiful, how much work does it actually take to raise hogs and not have to sell it? Matt Hatala (26:16.718) Honestly, Matt Hatala (26:21.24) There is not as much work that goes into it hands on day to day. It's more of the preparatory stuff. Running new paddocks, you know, breaking down fence, you know, cutting new pathways, stuff like that. And and even that, it's not that intensive, honestly. I mean you think of like grass raised cattle, you know. The cattle are out on grass every day, you make sure they're standing upright, you do your health checks, everyone's looking good, they've got their food, it's Until they need to be moved or go somewhere. Kent Boucher (26:52.494) It's the calving season that's that's the long for them and for you it's farrowing season. Matt Hatala (26:58.062) Sparrowing, the castrating, the weaning, the fence training, like those are all the big things that are real time consuming. And like that's a whole week, right? Between setup, moving, doing whatever we're doing. But outside of that, I mean, it's really not that hard. You know, I it it really isn't. You know, it it's and I say that now after three years of doing it, it's hard when you're getting into it, just the learning curve and like figuring out how your farm works and the best rotations and this and that. And we're still still figuring that. I'll be figuring that out forever, right? But I'm so much more comfortable right. now with it than I was in the beginning that it seems easy. That's the easy part. The farm, that that's the easy part. Yeah. The hard part is the hunting, the social media, the, you know, talking to someone in Italy about our order to make sure it gets here on time because they had the wrong address and it was going to get sent here instead of Indianapolis. You know, those are all the things that like I didn't expect to be doing when I got into it, which was just an oversight on my part because I was so focused on like I want to start a farm and I want to raise pigs and da da da. Which I'm kinda glad I didn't know in the beginning 'cause I might not have done it. But once you're in it, you're in it. So but yeah, those those those are honestly harder than the the farming itself, I believe. Kent Boucher (28:05.314) Yeah. What would be the perfect world? Like and maybe it's existed before, but it it currently doesn't. What would the perfect world be all your neighbors around here for maybe, I don't know, a radius of five miles would just buy buy Nicolas Lirio (28:22.346) Yeah, like like perfect customer base. Like well. Kent Boucher (28:24.546) Yeah, yeah, like if you could if you could say this is this is what would be ideal. Would it be direct to consumer within five miles and you're sold out? Matt Hatala (28:37.026) For me, because it's just me, I like to do more big orders, whether that's to restaurants or like we're doing now with the salami, just because the can time constraints that it takes to run orders, to get individual customers, you know, selling holes and halves and stuff like that is is a great way to start out, but you sell one person a whole pig, they're not gonna need a whole pig for at least Kent Boucher (29:03.822) Yeah true. Yeah. Matt Hatala (29:04.782) Right. So you're constantly having to go out and find these these consumers. farmers markets for me, they work really great for some people. I'm I'm not knocking farmers markets. It's excellent opportunity. You see a lot of people do really well in them. For me, again, time constraints, that's a whole day gone. And then there's the weather and then there's events. There's too many factors that so those things Kent Boucher (29:26.84) Yeah, and it's great. So the so basically basically the unit price, the unit price for pork has gotten low enough to where you have to raise enough pigs. Like there's a sweet spot in there, right? To you have to raise enough pigs to make enough money to support you and your farm. But that means then that you have to have enough of a customer base that it like That's a great point that your neighbors aren't gonna eat through enough pork for you to only have your you know, for you and and the unit price for a a pound of pork is is low enough that you can't say, Well, you know, all my neighbors I d only need to raise ten hogs a year and everyone's fed and I'm paid. That's not enough. So you have to you have to because of that unit price point, you have to have that that scope of customer That is much further than just your your neighbor. Matt Hatala (30:30.582) Well, in in my farm obviously might be a little bit different than especially when we were talking about people that have inherited farms and have maybe a different setup to Yeah, i again, that that might work better for them. For me, you're right. I have to go to things that I can consistently rely on as far as a consumer base, which so like restaurants is great for me because I don't have to go out and find those consumers. They're already coming right to this place. Kent Boucher (30:38.697) Sure, yeah, their overhead's lower. Kent Boucher (30:57.452) Yep. Right. And it's a lot of eaters. So there's a lot of volume of pork. Matt Hatala (31:00.704) I don't gotta yeah, I don't have to go out and market my pork to them. They're coming here to get it from somebody else that's done that front end work to to get them in their door. Or like with the salami deal, the charcuterie for pork is probably the highest margin so you can get into, right? And when you're getting into regenerative pork, especially in a state like Iowa, where we have such a consumer base of people that are used to cheap commodity pork. There is way too much education that needs to go on for people to understand the difference between what I do and what they do. And with that not being there, they're gonna see the the sticker price and they're just gonna go, no, no, I'm not paying that. Unless they know me or unless they are very much into regenerative and are in that world. So that's why I went initially for because we started off direct consumer, right? We started off with that, but I was selling to people in California and Georgia. Where the pork market isn't the same and people Nicolas Lirio (32:05.608) Yeah. Matt Hatala (32:08.29) Yeah, you know what I mean? And and in the bigger cities and you get these people that are very you know, health conscious and stuff like that. And and my demographic was more outside of rural Iowa for for pork. So that's where we started and then we went to restaurants because it was a big big sales. It was easy for me to do big orders, you know, once every couple of weeks, once a month. And now we're moving into salami and working with distributors. and I think If you're gonna get in, and I'm just gonna talk about pork because I don't know lamb, cattle, chicken. But if you're gonna get into pork and you're gonna get into regenerative pork, I would highly suggest you find a niche. You you need to find a niche. For whatever reason, pork has been kind of sidelined as a something that people don't really think about. When you talk about regenerative, you think about chicken coops out on paths. When you think about Грас из-нетю, бо компарит до. Kent Boucher (33:06.114) Yeah, it's not raw milk, it's not grass fed beef, it's not it's not even I would even say surprisingly, sheep and goats have have you know, they're they're just that association of a of a you know, a regenerative, sustainable farmstead. It people think of that even before they think of hogs. Matt Hatala (33:28.238) Absolutely. And because of that, you're gonna be running a very niche product, right? You're gonna be running a very niche product and you need to find a market that complements that, you know? And for me Matt Hatala (33:43.222) It just made the most sense. And I I kinda wanna work it in reverse. You know, like I'd eventually love to be able to go back to doing cuts and stuff like that. But building my business and I'm only talking about my farm. This may be different for other people. But for me, I had to go with large quantity size at the best margins possible that reflected the work and the way that I was raising my pigs out here without getting washed out in a grocery store shelf, you know, sitting next to porch that is two dollars less right and all you see on the shelf is well this is two dollars less than this and you know right so I'm not meaning to sound like there's not enough education out there so what was mean? But it's just a fact. If you're a pork producer in in Iowa regeneratively, you know it's an uphill battle. And youth Kent Boucher (34:23.297) Right, yeah. Nicolas Lirio (34:29.048) think that the pros outweigh the cons. The cons of your pork is it's way more expensive. It's like three times the price. Yeah. The pros are a healthier Iowa, a healthier body, you know, the animal lifestyle. And there there's several other pros, but Matt Hatala (34:46.638) Yep. Kent Boucher (34:50.018) Which I think I think and I'm not just picking on you 'cause you mentioned that one last. I think that's undersold. and maybe it's a virtue signal, maybe it's you know, s trying to claim some kind of moral high ground. But I I just think that people should care more about that as that that aspect Nicolas Lirio (35:09.152) Sold by people like Matt or is it undercared about by the people buying the product? Kent Boucher (35:13.644) By the people buying the product that that what I'm eating didn't have to live a hor horrific I hunted next to a hog confinement this last year. and I remember telling the person I was hunting with I don't know that I've heard a more inhumane play it was screaming the entire time. I was in I was in beautiful nature prairie around me and everything, but there was just Just it was just Matt Hatala (35:43.874) You're pulling your skin out of Yeah, exactly. Kent Boucher (35:46.088) And even at all. And even and even if a confinement guy was scoffing at me and be like, Well, that's just what pigs do, it still would suck to be in a place where everyone's screaming all the time because that would hurt my ears. You know what I mean? And I gotta think it's the same for them. Matt Hatala (36:00.288) All of our information though, like you were talking about with tails earlier and stuff like that. We have this idea of well, that's just what pigs do. No, that's what pigs do in confinement. And they've been there for so long that this has become the standard that like, if you don't cut your pigs' tails off, you know, when they're born, they're gonna you know, they could get chomped on by the other one, stuff like that. And know, you don't want that. It's like, well, no, my my I've never seen one of my pigs bite another t one's tail off because they're not in a small area. If they want to get away from that pig, they've got five hundred feet that they can go that way and get away from that. Nicolas Lirio (36:28.438) So so Kent Boucher (36:29.134) Well and I think it's part of human nature to look at other living things and be like, Man, you know what? I don't really care much about that thing. But I guess I'd I if I had to say, you know, does it have a a you know r reasonably healthy, happy life versus a stressful, confined no no agency over what's what's happening to it life. I guess I'd choose that. You know, we just had that huge thing in the news where there was that guy in the Hawaii who Chucked that rock at that endangered seal and near nearly hit her in the head and people came on g in fact some some guy who was on site beat the crap out of the dude. it was ever it just like appealed to some of afterwards as well. Right, right. It it just really it really tugged on something that is innate to I think healthy people where yeah, I you know, I'm not a seal. I don't Nicolas Lirio (37:15.636) It was his attitude that I Kent Boucher (37:29.026) I don't see seals often, I don't really care about seals, but don't go chucking rocks at their head, right? Matt Hatala (37:33.921) Well it like there's no Kent Boucher (37:36.046) Like I think that's good. We should we should appeal to that. When we when we're at the meat market, we're like, this was yeah, I'd pay a few extra bucks for something that didn't have to live in that, you know. Matt Hatala (37:47.224) There's no monetary ROI on something like that, right? Like I don't make more and and I guess you could argue that because people are willing to pay more that value that, right? So there might be a little ROI. But I'm saying like it's not done because of I'm making more money off of it, right? You could argue almost that I'm losing money because with their confined system they don't exercise and they gain weight quicker. But I can go to sleep every night. Exactly. Right? I couldn't go to sleep if I worked in that building. Kent Boucher (38:09.688) But it's way more efficient. Kent Boucher (38:14.286) That has value. Matt Hatala (38:14.786) Dreams every day and you know be okay with that. Nicolas Lirio (38:17.836) I wanna ask about I wanna play the devil's advocate on that. Let's do it. So here's here's the phrase I've heard this many times. We couldn't feed the world like we do and have pa that much pasture raised cattle and hogs. Matt Hatala (38:34.39) tried. You know, I it's and here's the other thing. This this whole feed the world thing. Yeah. I'm so sick and tired of hearing that. When we use this line of feed the world, all we're really saying is that we're willing to degrade our own state and our community's health to provide a service for someone across the world that is never gonna give back to that community. We're taking away from it. Why are we worried about feeding the world? Well Nicolas Lirio (39:04.61) I've got a Kent Boucher (39:04.962) Well that that was that was that was Molly's answer. Yeah. What why why she was in Illinois and so this is this is Molly Gleason. why can I not think of Ill is like Illinois I can't remember the name of the the organization that question is why does why does Illinois need to feed the world? Why can't Illinois focus on feeding Illinois? Yeah. And I think that's just that's a reasonable question to ask. Nicolas Lirio (39:08.054) Yeah, why Nicolas Lirio (39:21.6) I Nicolas Lirio (39:33.75) I've got a I've got a follow-up question and that exact cause I right. There I agree with you. And then there are pros and cons. Here's the con. If we get away from us shipping food to South America and South America shipping food to us, are you okay with having basically no fruit for six months out of the year? Well, f five months out of the year in Iowa? Because that's a tra and I'm not saying that like the way you're thinking is so stupid. I'm just saying that's the trade-off we have to tell ourselves. Kent Boucher (40:00.598) Well but but there's gotta be there's gotta be some some middle ground there, right? Because it wasn't because that we're not that far removed from that. My grandpa grew up that way, right? Yeah. There was the the global food exchange. So you'd have to be like that. Fresh fruit. Because what did those people do? They all canned. They all they all canned during the during the season. No, no, of course not, but you could still have Nicolas Lirio (40:13.494) Okay, then I would say diminished amount of fruit or something like that. Nicolas Lirio (40:23.685) but they're you can you can't can all fruits. Kent Boucher (40:29.972) you could still have limited eye so what I'm saying is you're mostly right, but there's there is a responsibility placed back on and it's not just because they had fruit trees. You canned fruit you get from the grocery store. Yeah. But you have to adjust your lifestyle to to to Nicolas Lirio (40:47.0) No, and and you know, it's like we can complain about shirts made by thirteen year olds and whatever Laos or whatever country, you know, it and but here's the trade-off. And if and peop I just I don't understand. People aren't ready to accept this. Are you real are you ready to pay more are you ready to pay fifty-two dollars a shirt? And and and I wanna say that I am. I wanna be like, yeah, I you know, I I wanna say that I'm okay with the consumer Kent Boucher (41:14.006) Yeah, okay, that's a great point. It's the exact same it's the exact same problem. Nicolas Lirio (41:18.238) Are we actually? Easy it's easy to to come it's easy to fight for the peasants from the throne. Kent Boucher (41:25.986) Hundred percent it's like you make that up? I did, just on the side. That's a good that's a good line. Matt Hatala (41:31.456) It that's all we've ever known too, right? So you're asking people to give up things if Nicolas Lirio (41:35.406) Yeah. But wouldn't that also Matt Hatala (41:40.962) Provide opportunity in the state as well. Yeah. You know, if you can't get all that stuff because it's coming from here, there and the other, well, wouldn't that just drive you know, opportunity for people to start doing that here? Because that's one of the things that we were talking about the other day on the phone is I've heard this so many times recently that when we're talking about big ag or large scale farms and you'll hear farmers say, well, you know, I I'd love to do something different. I you know, I but I'm so tied into the corn and soy market because, you know There's no other markets the government hasn't set up anything for us to do otherwise and that they haven't provided us this easy one way street to where we can go offload it just the w same way we do corn and soy. Kind of bogus, right? Nicolas Lirio (42:25.614) Was in college, I worked for a marketing company and it was a small marketing company. And my boss, he was a really cool guy. And I remember him taking me to lunch one day and telling me, Nicholas, the most important thing you'll do in business is name your company. I don't know if that's true or not, but you better believe I was blown away when I met the company Iowa Cover Crop. I mean, it's a brilliant name, but it's a little misleading because you might think, okay, they do cover crops, but they actually do a lot more than cover crops. Basically, if it's not corn and beans, they probably have it. You're talking about grains, alfalfas, lawn mixes, cover crop mixes, forage mixes. They do all sorts of things. In fact, they even have CRP and native mixes. I really like the people who provide those for them. If you are looking for anything that's not corn and beans and seed and you're in Iowa or a state touching Iowa, I highly, highly recommend looking into Iowa Covercrop. That's IowaCovercrop.com. and they have a new podcast. I really enjoy it. They didn't ask me to put this in the ad. I just wanted to because I've really enjoyed their podcast. Super informational. If you're looking to learn more about cover crops for your farm and how they can apply for your specific situation, you're gonna want to check it out. It's called Under the Covers. Again, that's IowaCovercrop.com. Why is it bogus? Matt Hatala (43:36.846) it is bogus because you you've got a group of people that will sit there and, you know, talk bad about the government's influence in agriculture and then the same sentence say the only reason they're not diversifying and doing anything different outside of corn and soy is because the government hasn't set up a sure for sure market like they're used to in corn and soy. And I guess what it goes back to is there's gonna be a point of uncomfortability. Right. We cannot avoid something uncomfortable in the trajectory of agriculture within Iowa. Right. If we want it to change, it is gonna get uncomfortable. Now, whether that's going to the extreme of saying, we're not importing any vegetables and like forcing people to create new markets here, or on the same path that we're on right now, where we have rising cancer rates and we're degrading our soil quality and we are on a ticking time bomb. Because it's only getting worse and worse and worse and there's not being anything done at the moment to counteract that. And even when we do start countering accounteracting that, how many years is it gonna take to even clean up the damage that we've done and gets back to some sort of neutral? Right? So there's always gonna be this level of uncomfortability, and I get so tired of the people that seemingly have the most chips and have the most opportunity or set up the most, these big farmers talking about there's nothing I can do. Well Nicolas Lirio (45:00.726) I had a conversation with someone a little while ago. They've got thousands of acres. Not many thousands, but thousands, you know. And I don't they don't own that many, but they farm that many. And he was he was saying the exact I'm I'm just start I wanna do something different. I want and and I told him one of the hardest decisions we made on our farm and one of the best decisions for us was giving up one of our farms. We I mean we didn't own it, we were renting it. And the truth the truth is we The chance we ever farm that again is almost nothing. It's not nothing, but it's almost nothing. And yeah, but there's a scarcity mentality that, if I give that up, I'm never gonna get it back. But the truth is your hamster wheel's just bigger. Like you can't get off a five thousand acre hamster wheel. But you can if you downsize it slowly over time and sell some of your equipment, it you can get off a six hundred acre hamster wheel. You can't and but people don't want to do that and there's a scarcity mentality if I get you know Matt Hatala (46:02.614) I'm not saying that I'm not trying to say this to say that it would be easy for farmers to to change, you know, what we're pointing out here and now, but to act like there is no other option, like, my hands are tied. It's like this whole feed the world thing. We've gotten so used to hearing this regurgitated information that we don't even question anymore. It's just been drilling our heads. Well, the markets aren't there, so that's why they don't do it. And and that's where the conversation stops. It's like, really? Because all me and my friends got into this. Kent Boucher (46:28.77) Yeah. Matt Hatala (46:32.236) with nothing, right? And we're making markets. And we don't have the equipment. We don't have the acres. We didn't have anything passed down to us. So where I'm I'm saying like there it's not easy and it's not just like snapping your fingers and changing the farm. Get that. But don't come to someone like me and be like it's impossible when I'm out here doing what you say you can't do with less. Right. Kent Boucher (46:55.704) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (46:56.428) Yeah, no yeah, no no no large scale meaningful equipment, basically using your shoulders. Ken had a great phrase when we were dealing with silky wild rye. When when you can't use your brawn and you can't when your brawn no no when your brain and your equipment Kent Boucher (47:09.763) When your back and equipment's done. Or no, sorry, when your brain and your equipment are done, you gotta go to your back. Nicolas Lirio (47:14.968) You gotta use your back. And and I think that's amazing that you and I and the you're right. I've been saying this on the pod. Like are we willing to go through the pain? Especially with the cancer thing. I asked all the candidates that for the gubernatory rate. Like if we actually figure out what the problem is, is Iowa willing to go through the pain of fixing the problem instead of slapping a band-aid. So the the the truth is like a lot of people know what their problems are. And they're not willing to go through the pain. And I cannot remember who it is, but they wrote a book, and the whole premise of the book is that your all of your success in your life is locked behind somewhere between five and ten very difficult decisions. Like, I I am not an advocate for divorce or anything like that, but a lot of times, especially for women and d domestic abuse, one of the hardest things they could possibly do is step through that divorce door, right? It is very difficult, but a lot of their happiness and satisfaction and success in life is gonna be locked behind going through that painful step. And I've seen that over and over again. We're just not always willing to take that painful step. Matt Hatala (48:18.506) Absolutely. And I don't wanna sound insensitive either and be like it's all on the farmers. The industry itself is set up to keep them on that hamster wheel, right? Industry is set up that way. Kent Boucher (48:27.73) yeah. The whole and I think and I the the conversation has changed from that part of the farm industry to where they are in full I would say full acknowledgement of that fact that the system is set up to keep them held there. Yes. And I can be sympathetic to that. I mean there's there's there are guys who are operating like a big time farm. but they don't own much of what they're farming and what they're farming it with, right? So they are completely leveraged. And they financially are stuck and I don't know that there is a I don't know that there's a reasonable off ramp for them other than I mean, like Nick said, you know, you step your way back out of it to some degree. Or maybe you sell everything and then buy all old stuff or something. May you know, something very drastic. But and so I'm sympathetic for those people. Like what what do they do? But continuing to just stay on the hamster wheel, right? You're not gonna get those debts paid. Right. Matt Hatala (49:42.478) I think you can do both. We can be sympathetic to the situation that they've found themselves in because it could have been a generational thing. They could have inherited something that's been in their family. They didn't make those decisions to start that way and to go that way. And maybe they didn't have the know how Kent Boucher (49:48.781) Yeah. Kent Boucher (49:56.226) Yeah, not just inherited land, inherited a problem. Matt Hatala (49:58.752) Yeah, exactly. So I think we can acknowledge that by with also holding them accountable and saying, look, we acknowledge that this is tough. Yeah. We acknowledge that you are not in a good position, but you need to acknowledge what this is actually doing, not just to yourself, your community, the state, and it sucks. That's a huge burden because someone is looking at their farm and they're probably just trying to keep that alive. Right? But we also need to take into consideration Kent Boucher (50:22.605) Yeah. Matt Hatala (50:27.128) 10 years from now, 20 years from Right. And it's hard because it's again, they're so focused on day to day and keeping that far. Right. And they've got a problem that extends out in their community. It's I'm not saying that I have the answers, right? And maybe that's fair to say that I'm just, you know, complaining then if I don't have an answer and I'm bringing it up. And that's fair. But I I just think there's something to be said about we can't continue to allow these talking points to be pushed without questioning them. Kent Boucher (50:32.568) Right, yeah. Kent Boucher (50:53.26) Yeah, I agree. Pushing back? That's a great point. Nicolas Lirio (50:55.394) gonna come rescue us like why why why is no one yeah exact and you Matt you don't have I've got ounces of it in my body and Ken and I've had conversation like we've got ounces of it. You do not have a single ounce of victim mentality in your body. Try you're you're look it's it's it's all on my shoulders and I like it and there are there are real victims out there and let's say let's say someone was what had a really adverse childhood and they grow up. When they're eighteen and nineteen Kent Boucher (51:10.382) Like too. Nicolas Lirio (51:25.87) I get it. Like they suck because they had a sucky upbringing. But when you're like thirty-four, you go, I don't know where the line is, but between eighteen and thirty-four, there's a gray line somewhere in there where it became your f your responsibility and your fault. Right. You know what I mean? And so I I I'm with you. Like is people Kent Boucher (51:44.974) I wouldn't say I wouldn't say it became your fault, it became your responsibility. Nicolas Lirio (51:47.838) Your responsibility. Kent Boucher (51:51.582) Right. Nicolas Lirio (51:54.252) Like I I do I feel for farmers. They're in a tough spot. I just why I come keep coming to visit you is is because you were in a really tough spot and you said, All right, where's the shovel? Let's dig this some bitch out of here. You know what I mean? And I that's just so amazing. You got in with your own hands and you did it and and and there are real victims, real excuses out there on why things don't work. It but I don't just look into the government to solve our problems is Like you said, a lot of farmers I personally hear them be like, Well, psh farm or government they're terrible at giving out handout, you know, all this stuff and a lot of validity to you know, to some of that stuff. But also Kent Boucher (52:35.5) Do you want do you want to go find your Nicolas Lirio (52:37.486) Checks, you know what I mean? Nobody Kent Boucher (52:39.96) There you go. Matt Hatala (52:40.634) Or not only that, but like all the grant money and the stuff like that through the USDA. I've dealt with that. Trying to put ponds in, having them come out here, design everything. yeah, this is good to go. We ran it through everything, da da da da da. And then all of a sudden, wait, sorry. we found something after we ran it through this second program. it looks like the gradient slope doesn't match with what we would need for hogs being run on the land. Okay. So then where's that money going to? Yeah. It's not going to the regenerative guys. No. Where's it going to? Right? The the con People that have the bigger So again, it's I'm trying to be sensitive to the fact that like I can acknowledge that these guys are not in a great position, but don't sit here and tell me that you can't do anything. Yeah. Right. It may not be easy. Yeah. It may not be a direct shot. You may have to take some risks, but you're never gonna tell someone like me that is taking risks from day one that it can't be done. Because it can be. It's just how much you want to put yourself into it and how far are you willing to take that for what you believe in. That's that's really what it boils down to. Nicolas Lirio (53:38.754) Right. I knew this I knew this pastor, I don't know, years ago. And he was telling me this story. He'd he'd preach a church for like I don't know, three decades, four decades. And I said, What when did the congregation have the most angry response with you? And he said, One day, I sat there and I said, Hey, why why don't we read our Bibles and why why don't we pray? Like really honey, like 15 minutes a day. What what else you guys got going on? And he basically stripped away any excuse and and full accountability for each person individually. And he said the congregation was so angry with him, but it was because they like when excuses get ripped away. Yeah. People people and and and I I don't want to be too hard on farmers because they're they're in a tough spot. but our whole goal or one of the big goals with this podcast is rallying people in agriculture and in rural communities to make change together. So we're not alone doing it. Matt Hatala (54:18.146) Can I make Nicolas Lirio (54:37.311) but people have to buy in to be willing to do it. Matt Hatala (54:39.596) Well, and I think one of the reasons why we aren't as mad as maybe we should be, and again, I'm I'm not trying to blame just the farmers here. All right. I'm not. But it's because we don't see the bodies. Right? We don't see all the bodies that this is had that have been affected by the cancer rates rising in Iowa. We know people that have, right? And there is some connection there. But if you could see the devastation that this is doing visually. like we see with other things and conflicts around the world and we see the devastation and things that are happening, I think we would be a lot more upset. And I don't think we would put up with those excuses Kent Boucher (55:13.076) Our response would be I don't know what it is, I don't know how it is, but we gotta do something to fix this. Right. That would be our response. Matt Hatala (55:21.708) In the ag industry I think has done a a genius, like an evil genius job of making the local farmers in their community like the spokespeople for the big ag, right? Like they're the ones that have to take the brunt force when people get upset because we look at well, he's got this many acres and I know he sprays it with this and da da da and I'm not trying to take all the blame off them, but like it's this buffer to where they don't ever have to take accountability for this Nicolas Lirio (55:47.086) There the farmer isn't the one going to the White House trying to get immunity for for you know whatever chemical that's just been passed. Yeah, that's that's we're with you on that. You know, we are totally with you. And in a lot of cases, I would say less so less and less so as we are going into the future. But we w farmers were with the rest of us when we were told no, this stuff's safe. Kent Boucher (55:54.754) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (56:09.418) All all this is safe. This is all good. This is good for you. It's healthy. This is what rural America looks like. This land isn't developed. Well, it has a monoculture on it. Duped a little bit, but in the same case, as a rural community, I don't want to be like, look at those big bad companies over there. You know, I I there is not all bad all evil or all good in any company that I'd ever seen. So I want us to also acknowledge like, yeah, like were we duped a little bit? Yeah, but we need to take responsibility. It's our job to dig ourselves out of this. Not we're I don't want to beg bear to come and dump a bunch of money in our communities as reparations. I just want to be like, all right, well, this is the mess we kind of put ourselves in with our decisions. Now what are we going to do? How are we going to vote? Where are we going to spend our money to change it? Matt Hatala (57:03.03) Well, this is another thing that I've been thinking about because you know, we've got the governor race going on right now in Iowa and the huge topic is water quality and big ags influence, you know, people outside of the state that are influencing the water quality within the state. And I guess that to me it's like, yes, we can talk about this problem, we can identify it. And let's say we we you know, whatever this looks like, we win, we get big ag out of Iowa, okay? The farmers farming today have the same practice. They're gonna have the same practices, right? We get rid of big ag, they're not gonna stop spraying. No, they're not gonna just like, well, you know, whoever's gone now and I can do this on my own. Or I let's even say even better. The government creates a way for them to sell their grains directly without having to use some big ag middleman. Is that gonna be the catalyst for them to stop? Kent Boucher (57:34.902) They're not gonna reinvent the wheel, yeah. Matt Hatala (57:53.802) Spreading their plants? Are they gonna start doing anything different? I think it's more of a base education level of how we're farming rather than let's get big ag out of the state. Okay, big ag leaves. All the farmers that were farming for those guys are still here. Do you think they're gonna switch anything up that they've been doing for the past 20 years now just because they're gone? I don't think so. So yes, the industry created a monster here, but it's being propelled by the people that still participate in it. And whether it's here or not. they're probably still gonna be participating in those same habits. So it it is. It's it's it's two sides of the coin. I don't want to blame one more than the other, but it's a cohesive thing when we're looking at this problem that we're facing within the state of Iowa. Nicolas Lirio (58:35.092) And I think it a big part of it needs to be like being connected to the land. Cause what I don't wanna do is go to the state office and be like, we need to ban these chemicals and we need to ban GMO corn. We need I don't think that at all. That is that g that's a monster in and of itself that we would end up creating. I think the solution is like people who are really connected to their neighbors and really connected to the land just make healthier choices for themselves and the people in the land around them. and we just don't have it. And but and the truth is, we will never have that if Money continues to be our number one priority. It just it just won't. We'll we'll never we'll never get there. And peop and I find myself doing this. Like I have to catch myself. But when chasing money, even if you caught the tail of money, it's not gonna be It's not gonna bring you satisfaction. Like that's not what brings satisfaction. One of my favorite podcasts is My First Million. Talk about it on here because they really they talk about like holistic lifestyle, especially with people that have made a small fortune, which is not me. Fun fact. That's not that's not it's not relatable to me. But but I really enjoy listening. Kent Boucher (59:36.992) My first million dollar loan, that's Nicholas's episode. Matt Hatala (59:40.078) And I really Nicolas Lirio (59:41.062) Joy, listen and one of their questions they ask to wealthy people is how do you kill the money monster? Because even rich people understand that that monster that hungers for money never goes away. And so you literally have to kill it inside of yourself. You don't satisfy it. So if if we can't kill the money monster inside of ourselves, the the want for things and the want for comfort. If we don't if obscene comfort, if we don't kill that inside of ourselves and inside of our culture, like Ag's not gonna change, dude. I I don't care what legislation, I don't care what food hub is started, ag is not gonna change. The way that we do factories and overseas Asian countries is not gonna change. The way that they mine for cobalt for batteries is not gonna change Matt Hatala (01:00:20.744) No, because as a consumer base, we're promoting it. Yeah. Right. Right. But I will say though, I think that as a testament to our generation, we are seeing a step back and people saying, I don't need I can live a more simplistic life. I can do things differently. I I can, you know, not make as much money because my my goal in life is happiness and not financial security. Kent Boucher (01:00:23.505) Exactly. Right. Exactly. Kent Boucher (01:00:45.73) Well wealth being no wealth being delayed in accessibility for our generation, right? I think w eventually it theoretically gets there, right? Yeah, through inheritance or whatever, right? But I think it has I've thought about this quite a bit. I think it when you are just like if you your hogs out there, right? When we were watching eat earlier, when the grain was on the ground Nicolas Lirio (01:00:46.158) I think a lot of people don't know the difference. Kent Boucher (01:01:14.9) Everybody was on the grain. Couple minutes after all the grain was eaten up, all of a sudden I noticed every hog was eating grass. Every one of them. Right? And so with material wealth largely being tied up in in with boomers and and up, right? And really boomers are quickly becoming the oldest generation left, right? Silent generation is there's not many of them left around. But you start the younger generation start looking for wealth in other places. And I think that can be a positive and a negative, of course, right? I think there's there's a social media catalyzed self centeredness that could be one of those other pieces of wealth, you know, the old fitness influencer type type idea. But I think also there's a Kent Boucher (01:02:20.326) Yeah, right. Yeah. Big guns McGee. no the the the like there's that there's that aspect, right, where where people end up living this very isolated life. They're they're pouring into themselves. but there's also the positive side too. And there are good fitness influencers, right, who have focused really hard on personal health, you know, and and I'm gonna, you know, eat clean and I'm going to you know, be in you know, make sure that I'm doing well mentally, emotionally and spiritually and not just physically, right? And a or financially. And so we I think what you're saying is true in that we start to as a natural part of that is well, I can't I don't have the wealth to own three timeshares in in you know, Miami or wherever. but I do have enough extra folding money laying around to go and buy a better brand of pork than than what I what you know mom and dad are buying or whatever, you know, and and I think then we start to shift away from that financial pursuit as much as other generations have. And I think that that's that's that has been a very healthy thing for us. Matt Hatala (01:03:38.798) Absolutely. think our our pursuit i just in health in general, and even the younger generation, you know, Gen Z under millennials are are really prioritizing their health. And that's great because that complements a lot of, you know, right the things that we're trying to do with regenerative agriculture. yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:03:57.784) Well I've got two advice questions for ya. if let's say someone else someone was wanting to r start pasture raise hogs. Okay. First, what's your best advice for their making of the product or the farming of the pigs? And second, what's your best advice on them being able to sell their product and what they have or finding people who want it or Matt Hatala (01:04:19.116) Okay. so probably one of the number one things on the farming side that I ever did was find a good breeder and get genetics from them and run strictly their genetics. And the reason for that is temperament, ruggedness, consistency. You know, for me, I I need not so much anymore now with the salami, but especially when you're doing cuts and restaurant sales, you need to be able to give them. As cons as consistent of a product as you possibly can. Because we're in a world where the commodity market has figured out consistency, right? Consistency. Right? So genetics is something I would really heavily focus on on the farming side. And then as far as marketing your product. Kent Boucher (01:04:53.452) Yeah. Matt Hatala (01:05:10.232) The number one biggest thing for me, I think, if I boil it down, would be just transparency. Transparency and authenticness. Like, yeah, sometimes when I'm on a video, I'm kind of, you know, overexcited and I'm not always like that in real life, but that's who I am. And I do get excited about this stuff. And I think people like to see raw video of the person that they're looking to to raise their food. You know, not this polished, super clean look like. We've all been sold that from advertisements our whole life and we know it's just kind of, you know, BS marketing. So I I would say be transparent, you know, show e everything. be open about your trials and tribulations. you know, be a relatable person. Kent Boucher (01:05:53.474) Yeah, I think that's incredibly important in the the alternative farming, regenerative farming industry right now because people have I always think of that meme where there's that that black kid like he's looking at somebody's like giving him something and he's got his arms full and he's like Yeah, like like I love What are you selling me here? Yeah, yeah. I love that meme. he it that people have developed that motif when when they're presented with this too good to be true regen you know regenerative farm thing and and I think you're spot on in that the transparency behind because there are no silver bullets. There's there's there's things that that you know I'm I'm over here talking about regenerative this and that conservation this and that and I'm drinking a coffee out of a plastic cup with a plastic straw, it's gonna end up in some sea turtle's nose, you know. And and so we all have hypocrisies, we all have blind spots and we all have just ways we haven't fully bought in yet. But I think people know that about themselves because there's not a person on this planet who doesn't have those negative traits going on or negative factors going on. And when we don't pretend that no, it's just so. I I actually have found perfect, you know, balance and and you know, my operation is is above board in every way. I think that that ends up doing more damage to progress in the long run than than being honest and transparent and saying I'm doing the best I can with what I got. Matt Hatala (01:07:44.686) And I will to kind of build off of that. I think transparency and honesty and authenticness is super important. But I also want to say that this is my opinion. Don't make it about anything else. Right. I don't care what your affiliation is with this. I don't care what you know is going on. with your family, not in the sense that I don't care about your family, but like if you are if you're marketing your farm, make it about the farm. Make it about the product. Like at the end of the day, that's all people care about. La not your your morals or your outlooks or where you stand on this issue or whatever. Like I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. But if you're Nicolas Lirio (01:08:28.814) If you wanna do that, start a podcast. Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:08:30.98) All right. Nicolas Lirio (01:08:33.077) Try to keep the Hoxy Native Seeds channel about prairie, you know, and then the Prairie Farm Podcast channel about well, whatever Kent and I feel like talking about the other day. Kent Boucher (01:08:41.089) But that's good. Whatever we feel like virtue signaling about. Matt Hatala (01:08:43.768) I've seen people get a little bit of success on social media and then it's like, I've got this audience now and I can talk to about whatever I want. It's like, no, they didn't come here to hear whatever you want. Came here for pigs and so I'm gonna give you pigs. Kent Boucher (01:08:53.4) Right, yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:08:58.087) You wanna see Piglets being born? Check out Mad Tall as social media. Matt Hatala (01:09:02.286) But that th those would be my my two big things. You know, genetics, so you have the consistency. you know how your pigs are gonna turn out. You you don't have these wild cards with you know just random genetics. And then yeah, social media, you know, promoting your product. And obviously you you you can't rely on social media, like that's the front end, right? I can put a big pretty picture out there. But that's like my catalog, right? That's my reference point. I've still gotta go out there and approach those restaurants. I've still gotta go out there and approach those distributors, approach those buyers. But now it helps to say, Hey, this is who I am, this is what I do and and look at this database of stuff that I've collected for you to see to feel comfortable about what I'm telling you and selling you and and you can be reassured that that is what it is. So those would be the two two biggest things that I would, you know, suggest people really focus on if they're if they're gonna get into this. With pork too, I would really focus on finding a niche market. I I I really, really would, especially in the state of Iowa. that's just my personal opinion based off the things that I've gone through. I see people get into holes and halves thinking that, you know, this is gonna be the way out and they have great success that first time, like I said, because you got family and you got friends that want to support you. But then you hit that point of like, okay, we sold all our pigs this year. Now let's go sell some more. Well they don't need pork. They don't need pork. That well, now I've tapped out my whole inner circle. Yeah. Now I've all of a sudden gotta learn marketing. crap, I wasn't thinking about this. And then you know, they either become really good at it or they don't and you know, now you're only selling five pigs a year because you've got Kent Boucher (01:10:44.558) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:10:45.286) But you know, it's it it's interesting. My wife and I, when we opened the coffee shop, obviously we were crazy busy the first couple weeks and then it died off, and then since it dying off, it has just slowly gotten busier, right? And it was almost like we had to ask our community, Hey, can you make us a part of your daily routine? Right? And the more and there's kind of this cascading effect of where We have a really good customer and she comes in regularly and she started bringing her friends and her friends really liked it. So she they start coming regularly. You know, and you you're but before no one had been to Spire, no one had been to the coffee shop. So we were in no way part of their daily routine. It takes time to make something part of your routine. And similar with grocery buying habits. I feel like I don't know if this is true, but I feel like it would take time to convince people to make you part of their regular routine for years and years where they're buying a half once or twice a year, you know, and and that's tough to do. That and it takes time. Matt Hatala (01:11:42.614) I will say that I think the the great thing about the the detriment and the great thing about pork is it is so incredibly different than commodity pork. So there's huge learning curve there for people to understand the price point difference. But it also is so incredibly different taste-wise that once you have it, you're like, shoot, like this is what and and it it's a little bit easier, I think, once you get them that first taste. So one thing I always tell people is like. Kent Boucher (01:12:01.272) Pork short taste like Matt Hatala (01:12:11.586) Just get in their fridge once. Get in their fridge once. Don't go up to someone and say, Hey, you want to buy a hole? You want to buy a half. You're asking for a huge financial commitment from them, even if they know you. They've never even tasted your product. Put together a little bundle, a little forty dollar bundle, right? Some bacon, some chops, some ground. Get in their fridge one time, let taste the difference. Now approach them about that whole or that half, right? So Kent Boucher (01:12:13.08) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:12:21.441) Yeah, they've never Kent Boucher (01:12:36.801) It's a great way to Matt Hatala (01:12:37.396) Yeah, there's just, you know, all these little nuanced things that I've found along the way. and again, my my perception of this may be very different than people that have other abilities and have more people to help and stuff like that. But if you're doing it on your own, single person, those would be my my suggestions. Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:12:53.538) That is that is really good advice. Well I I'm gonna pause out Ms. Kentucky. Kent Boucher (01:12:57.038) No, I I just want to say I've always viewed sorry, I just bumped my mic. I I always viewed you as an example of the way forward. And I know that probably makes you feel uncomfortable, but it's it's it's but w it it's important to have those because we provide the high minded virtue signaling over here on the podcast. but you're a guy who's actually doing it. And I think if h Iowa was at one time possibly the healthiest place to be in North America, you know, when the when the first fur trappers, the European fur trappers were coming into the state and and were remarking on the biodiversity and and the healthy ecosystems and just a an unple a place of unbelievable wealth of of resources. And we're not that anymore, we're far from it. And we won't ever achieve what it once was ever again, most likely. But we need to move back in that direction. And if we're going to, we need people such as yourself showing us how. And and not just showing us how. because there are more than one way to do things, but showing us to believe in ourselves that we can. Just like you've you've said, and obviously we've been pretty critical of of the way things are done through agriculture right now on this episode, but we gotta believe in in our neighbors and believe in in the people around us that they can they can find something that's better and and healthier for them and their families and the families in their communities. And so you you provide that. You pr you provide an example of of someone who's doing that. And so I think it's incredibly important if you're listening into this to to Consider a lot of what Matt's saying and and it is true that that some of us are dealt better hands than others, but at the end of the day, it becomes our our responsibility to try and make the most of the hand that we have been dealt and and there's if if we if we don't ever pick up that that bit of responsibility, then we can't really expect anything to get better. Matt Hatala (01:15:22.786) And I thank you for saying all that, Kent. and I appreciate you guys continuing to come out here because you know, the the past couple years, I feel like a lot of our conversations are like, I can't wait to do this, I can't wait to do that. And that that bugs me sometimes because I don't wanna keep coming on here and not having more to show as far as the growth of the farm. but at the same time I think, you know Kent Boucher (01:15:44.834) You're doing it, man. Nicolas Lirio (01:15:46.422) Your your leaps you're not in a tent anymore. Hey, we're moving up, man. Kent Boucher (01:15:50.934) Don't don't don't be thinking you haven't done enough, man. Matt Hatala (01:15:55.809) I I just Kent Boucher (01:15:57.282) Part of being a farmer is you're always dreaming for s the next step, you know. Matt Hatala (01:16:00.59) Just appreciate you guys continuing to come out here and and document the journey and I I really hope, you know, here in the next year we're we're at a place where I can really say, Look at all these changes that we've made, we're actually, you know, finally at a position where I'm I'm running this exactly the way that I want to to run it. And you know, honestly, and I don't talk about this a lot, because it's it's lofty and I've got so many things right in front of my face that I need to worry about first. But if I could have my dream situation and like where do I take this? Where does this go? What is this, you know? Kent Boucher (01:16:23.918) Sure. Matt Hatala (01:16:30.274) become. It would be my goal to grow my salami company to the size where I can start incorporating other small Iowa farmers. Sure. And creating a industry that allows people like myself to have more of a plug and play and and not so much risk, you know, not take all the risk of that 'cause I want to promote. I think there should be way more people raising pigs this way. And I want to give people those opportunities and I want to show them and I'm not I'm not some pork savior or anything like that, but like I want to show them like there is a different way. We don't have to just do confinement, right? There's a reason why this used to work. And the only reason we went away from it was, you know, profit and and labor, right? Right. but that's shouldn't be the ROI that we're necessarily taking a look at nowadays when we're talking about all these cancer risks and stuff like that. So yeah, you know, my goal is to to build this out someday to where we can, you know, show that there is a viable way. to raise hogs in Iowa that is in conjunction with community health, soil health, and also profitable enough to where you're not trying to pull your hair out every single day. And one thing I do want to say before we go. Matt Hatala (01:17:45.046) Right now we've talked a lot about water quality and farming and stuff like that. And I think a lot of times we we focus on glyphosate and row croppers. Kent Boucher (01:17:52.406) Mm. Matt Hatala (01:17:53.774) Twenty percent of the nitrates that are hap that are making into our waterways come from overutilization of manure from hog confinement. So all I want to say is it it's an important conversation. I'm super glad we're having it, but like let's make sure that we're looking at all the you know, factors in this. And that's not to like single out, you know, the the pork market here in Iowa, but I listen to all these podcasts as I hear glyphosate, I hear this, I hear that, but I don't hear about the twenty five to thirty five million hogs that we raise in the state each year and how that's affecting our waterways as well. So just to throw that out there, while you're having your conversations about water quality, it is important. Let's make sure we're talking about all the factors. It's not just the row crop side of things, it's also the confinements. So Kent Boucher (01:18:39.992) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:18:40.632) Man, well we really, really appreciate it and and you're someone who's doing the work, you're moving the needle. I mean even just the acres that you purchase and and and and put hogs on and are able to actually like steward well that that's what it takes. And you all know cause conservation happens just one mind at a time. Matt Hatala (01:18:58.358) So