00:00:00:12 - 00:00:03:12

In three, two, one.

00:00:03:20 - 00:00:06:12

Jared. You're wearing a chain saw shirt.

00:00:06:12 - 00:00:10:10

You've been hosting a habitat podcast

for a long time.

00:00:10:11 - 00:00:12:18

We've talked about a lot of TSC work.

00:00:12:18 - 00:00:15:06

You've done a lot of TSR work.

00:00:15:06 - 00:00:19:06

Surely you've had a sketchy

chainsaw story.

00:00:20:03 - 00:00:22:16

Maybe someone cut a tree

and it fell where no one

00:00:22:16 - 00:00:25:16

was was wanting it to fall.

00:00:26:00 - 00:00:28:17

Maybe one fell early

because it was all rotten

00:00:28:17 - 00:00:31:17

through the middle or something like that.

00:00:31:22 - 00:00:32:09

Got it.

00:00:32:09 - 00:00:36:06

Do you have a sketchy, sketchy

chainsaw story that,

00:00:36:11 - 00:00:39:15

you might not want your wife to hear

or your mother or something like that?

00:00:40:16 - 00:00:42:04

Yeah, definitely.

00:00:42:04 - 00:00:43:19

Thanks for having me on, guys.

00:00:43:19 - 00:00:46:14

Look forward to this for a while now.

00:00:46:14 - 00:00:47:00

Yeah.

00:00:47:00 - 00:00:50:18

I used to be pretty embarrassed

by this story, and I didn't tell anybody

00:00:50:18 - 00:00:53:19

for quite a while because, you know,

embarrassed, but, Right.

00:00:53:19 - 00:00:54:20

Yeah.

00:00:54:20 - 00:01:00:03

I've been running a sore now for probably

7 or 8 years, and by means no expert.

00:01:01:19 - 00:01:04:06

But I was out on my first property.

00:01:04:06 - 00:01:05:23

I do everything, usually by myself.

00:01:05:23 - 00:01:09:20

One man team, which is, again,

I'm smart with the chainsaw. And,

00:01:10:23 - 00:01:14:10

I was cutting through a tree,

felling the tree,

00:01:15:08 - 00:01:17:18

and it was, rotten.

00:01:17:18 - 00:01:21:13

So it starts to fall, and I step out

of the way, and I was videotaping.

00:01:21:13 - 00:01:23:07

It was trying to get some content,

you know?

00:01:23:07 - 00:01:25:15

So I'm doing a couple things at once here.

00:01:25:15 - 00:01:28:14

And a branch probably about the size

00:01:28:14 - 00:01:31:14

of a baseball bat, maybe six foot long.

00:01:32:12 - 00:01:35:12

Snapped off the top of the tree

as it fell.

00:01:36:02 - 00:01:38:20

So the tree is falling to the side.

00:01:38:20 - 00:01:41:16

I'm stepped away to the side,

but this branch comes down

00:01:41:16 - 00:01:43:10

right on top of the helmet.

00:01:43:10 - 00:01:46:04

Oh, and, I didn't fall over anything,

00:01:46:04 - 00:01:49:04

so it kind of missed me,

but hit me in the head.

00:01:49:09 - 00:01:49:18

Yeah.

00:01:49:18 - 00:01:50:20

And, you know,

00:01:50:20 - 00:01:53:21

ever since then, I'm like, okay, that's

why you wear your chaps in your helmet.

00:01:53:21 - 00:01:57:03

Even if you're doing something

you've done a million times.

00:01:58:20 - 00:02:00:02

Like it was winter time.

00:02:00:02 - 00:02:01:23

I was out there by myself.

00:02:01:23 - 00:02:03:13

Could have gone ten different ways.

00:02:03:13 - 00:02:05:22

Wrong, right. So. Oh, yeah.

00:02:05:22 - 00:02:07:02

Yeah, yeah.

00:02:07:02 - 00:02:10:02

Being in the winter could have just

knocked you out and you got frostbite.

00:02:10:06 - 00:02:12:00

You know,

by the time you come to or something.

00:02:12:00 - 00:02:13:03

Yeah.

00:02:13:03 - 00:02:15:21

Ken, who are we talking to that.

00:02:15:21 - 00:02:18:21

It was like their their coworker

or something.

00:02:19:04 - 00:02:24:13

Like, the tree fell on him and he was by

himself, and it actually knocked him out.

00:02:24:13 - 00:02:28:00

And the only reason anyone found him

is because his phone did the like hole.

00:02:28:09 - 00:02:29:05

Are you okay?

00:02:29:05 - 00:02:31:22

And then it called 911

because it jostled around.

00:02:31:22 - 00:02:34:05

I you must have been talking about that

with somebody else.

00:02:34:05 - 00:02:35:23

I had not heard that story.

00:02:35:23 - 00:02:36:15

That's okay.

00:02:36:15 - 00:02:41:00

Well, guys, the guy who is running

our excavator, he told me this story.

00:02:41:00 - 00:02:43:14

And this is crazy, not our excavator.

00:02:43:14 - 00:02:46:21

We got an excavator on the property

for tearing down a couple bins.

00:02:47:10 - 00:02:48:06

Cool. And,

00:02:49:10 - 00:02:50:13

he and I go, dude,

00:02:50:13 - 00:02:53:13

what's like, what's the scariest moment

you've ever had with this thing?

00:02:53:13 - 00:02:56:03

He's like, well,

I was on the side of the river.

00:02:56:03 - 00:02:57:19

Skunk River, I think it was.

00:02:57:19 - 00:03:00:19

And and I was pulling out big trees.

00:03:01:02 - 00:03:03:15

Well, and

and you got to keep on this excavator.

00:03:03:15 - 00:03:09:17

He's like, this is a 50,000 pound

excavator and a tree fell down like it.

00:03:09:17 - 00:03:13:04

Basically, he dug up enough dirt

that it didn't have enough root system.

00:03:13:04 - 00:03:16:19

It fell down earlier

and the root system under him

00:03:17:00 - 00:03:20:12

picked him up

in, like the leverage picked him up.

00:03:21:02 - 00:03:23:11

Yeah.

And he said he threw it into reverse.

00:03:23:11 - 00:03:27:10

So as the tree was falling, he was rolling

back off of the root system,

00:03:27:17 - 00:03:29:22

but it picked him up and tipped him

forward.

00:03:29:22 - 00:03:32:11

And, that was horrifying.

00:03:32:11 - 00:03:33:21

Dude, that.

00:03:33:21 - 00:03:36:13

Yeah, that is terrifying. Holy cow.

00:03:36:13 - 00:03:38:13

Well, we're going to go

ahead and in this. Podcast,

00:03:39:15 - 00:03:40:03

we're all going to

00:03:40:03 - 00:03:43:03

go hug our family members.

00:03:43:04 - 00:03:44:16

Great monikers going up right now.

00:03:44:16 - 00:03:47:10

Yeah, that's what

00:03:47:10 - 00:03:48:15

yeah that's terrifying.

00:03:48:15 - 00:03:50:13

But it brings about a real truth.

00:03:50:13 - 00:03:54:05

You know, you, Well, it's interesting

I had to stop the tire shop.

00:03:55:23 - 00:03:57:06

Before we started this podcast

00:03:57:06 - 00:04:00:06

this morning, and,

00:04:00:10 - 00:04:02:19

I was, I was talking with the guy about,

00:04:02:19 - 00:04:05:19

split rims, so old style,

00:04:06:08 - 00:04:09:08

you know, farm equipment, trucks.

00:04:09:20 - 00:04:14:16

I suppose at one time, maybe even

the majority of vehicles had split rims.

00:04:15:10 - 00:04:18:22

Which is kind of like this band

that goes around the outside

00:04:18:22 - 00:04:19:15

like a plate

00:04:19:15 - 00:04:22:21

that goes around the outside of the rim

and holds down the beat of the tires

00:04:22:23 - 00:04:24:18

when I understand it.

00:04:24:18 - 00:04:29:12

And, there

some people call them suicide rims, widow

00:04:29:12 - 00:04:33:12

makers, you know, you get enough pressure

behind those things, they separate.

00:04:33:12 - 00:04:39:07

And I think they just literally bust off

the the rim like a bullet. And,

00:04:40:16 - 00:04:43:13

there's a guy, a friend of mine.

00:04:43:13 - 00:04:47:09

Who. He's like in his mid 60s now.

00:04:47:09 - 00:04:51:08

So his dad owned a, auto shop

when he was a kid growing up there.

00:04:51:08 - 00:04:54:08

And and, he

00:04:55:09 - 00:04:58:17

and and it's interesting

because his dad was a World War two vet,

00:04:59:11 - 00:05:02:11

in the European theater and,

00:05:04:19 - 00:05:10:05

he, would not allow, so it's a guy

who's accustomed to danger, right?

00:05:10:05 - 00:05:12:17

Like, he's, he's lived danger.

00:05:12:17 - 00:05:16:01

And, he, he even, would race,

00:05:17:05 - 00:05:21:17

like, kind of semiprofessional or amateur,

I guess would race, like, stock

00:05:21:17 - 00:05:25:22

cars and stuff and, he would not allow

00:05:26:01 - 00:05:29:01

his sons to, be anywhere near,

00:05:30:01 - 00:05:32:11

one of those rims

when he was working on it.

00:05:32:11 - 00:05:34:12

Like, that's how dangerous they were.

00:05:34:12 - 00:05:37:16

But it's it's

a part of the reality of doing,

00:05:38:22 - 00:05:41:13

you know, some of the work

that the three of us do here on this

00:05:41:13 - 00:05:44:18

podcast is you you really have to,

00:05:46:06 - 00:05:47:06

as Carol would say,

00:05:47:06 - 00:05:51:13

Nicholas, be observant

and and be paying attention at all times.

00:05:51:13 - 00:05:56:07

And sometimes I'm almost thankful

for those close calls like that.

00:05:56:07 - 00:05:57:12

You talked about their Jared

00:05:57:12 - 00:06:00:17

with the tree branch,

because the second thing you said after

00:06:00:17 - 00:06:04:01

you told that story is now,

I always make sure I'm looking around.

00:06:04:01 - 00:06:05:00

I'm way back.

00:06:05:00 - 00:06:07:07

You know, I'm not, you know, complacent.

00:06:07:07 - 00:06:08:17

And I guarantee you,

00:06:08:17 - 00:06:12:15

Andrew, the guy who runs the excavator,

who's a very good operator, by the way,

00:06:12:15 - 00:06:16:01

and he can't be more

than, like, 22 years old.

00:06:18:01 - 00:06:20:23

I bet you he thinks about that every time

he's in a similar position.

00:06:20:23 - 00:06:23:23

And and, you know, I think it's,

00:06:24:08 - 00:06:27:13

you know, it's it's a good it's

kind of good to go through

00:06:27:13 - 00:06:31:19

those close calls because it's a

that should be, lesson learned for life.

00:06:33:10 - 00:06:34:10

I totally agree.

00:06:34:10 - 00:06:35:10

You know, we,

00:06:35:10 - 00:06:38:12

we were talking before we hit the record

button, like, we have kids get home to.

00:06:38:12 - 00:06:39:23

We have stuff to do. Yeah.

00:06:39:23 - 00:06:43:19

You know, I have I have, goals

I want to accomplish in life.

00:06:43:19 - 00:06:47:16

So if I could take them out

by a random tree, that would suck. So.

00:06:49:00 - 00:06:49:19

Yeah.

00:06:49:19 - 00:06:52:06

Is this how it's going to end?

00:06:52:06 - 00:06:52:15

Yeah.

00:06:52:15 - 00:06:55:06

And die. And war. But,

yeah. I'm just a branch.

00:06:55:06 - 00:06:56:01

So on my head.

00:06:56:01 - 00:06:59:01

And this was it? Yes.

00:07:00:04 - 00:07:01:11

So I'm. I'm curious.

00:07:01:11 - 00:07:06:04

You walk into, a wooded area

or you observe a wooded area.

00:07:06:04 - 00:07:09:11

I imagine people

either hire you or friends.

00:07:09:11 - 00:07:12:00

They say like, hey, can you come

look at my woodlands?

00:07:12:00 - 00:07:14:18

You go going first

three things you're looking at

00:07:14:18 - 00:07:16:22

when you're in a woodland area and why.

00:07:16:22 - 00:07:19:22

What are you looking for? Good question.

00:07:20:05 - 00:07:25:14

Looking for open canopy

percentage, looking for,

00:07:27:17 - 00:07:29:05

invasives and

00:07:29:05 - 00:07:32:21

looking for timber value as well

00:07:33:02 - 00:07:36:02

to maybe help fund the project or to get

people started on the right direction.

00:07:37:01 - 00:07:40:01

What percentage

are you trying to have the canopy be open?

00:07:40:22 - 00:07:43:19

Don't you know that all kind of depends,

but I like

00:07:43:19 - 00:07:46:20

I like 50%, you know, or more.

00:07:47:19 - 00:07:50:09

Wow. That's

more than I would have expected.

00:07:50:09 - 00:07:53:04

A lot of places

I go, almost all the properties

00:07:53:04 - 00:07:56:16

I visited on the consulting side of things

need to be cut.

00:07:56:16 - 00:07:59:01

I mean, there's I bet there's

00:07:59:01 - 00:08:01:01

three out of 100

00:08:01:01 - 00:08:05:12

that maybe it's opposite where,

you know, it's a clear cut situation.

00:08:05:12 - 00:08:08:12

Or they bought a farm

that was already locked.

00:08:08:21 - 00:08:11:21

But I mean, the much by far

the vast majority have,

00:08:12:05 - 00:08:15:18

a mature to mature of timber

for wildlife value.

00:08:16:04 - 00:08:18:07

And, it needs to get cut.

00:08:18:07 - 00:08:21:07

So, I mean, I can almost tell you

every place I go

00:08:21:07 - 00:08:24:09

to, I'm going to walk in and go,

all right, get a forester on board first.

00:08:24:20 - 00:08:29:03

You can even do that for a show up and

just start to get that ball rolling. So

00:08:30:02 - 00:08:31:03

are you using,

00:08:31:03 - 00:08:34:11

State Forester when you do that usually,

or do you have

00:08:34:20 - 00:08:39:10

are there some, you know, like Esplanade

or was it is Davies the other one?

00:08:39:11 - 00:08:40:00

Oh, sure.

00:08:40:00 - 00:08:44:08

Like like like those big,

you know, teams of loggers that.

00:08:44:15 - 00:08:46:02

Go all. Over the country.

00:08:46:02 - 00:08:49:01

I mean, who are you when you say colony?

00:08:49:01 - 00:08:51:15

Forest or who are you?

Who are you going to?

00:08:51:15 - 00:08:52:07

Good question.

00:08:52:07 - 00:08:55:08

I think it really can can vary.

00:08:55:08 - 00:08:59:21

It's whoever can get there

to the person's property in the area,

00:09:00:08 - 00:09:02:21

whoever is a good fit for the job.

00:09:02:21 - 00:09:06:05

A lot of them are so busy right now,

so either stay or private.

00:09:06:06 - 00:09:07:11

I'll go either way.

00:09:07:11 - 00:09:10:05

I've had both.

00:09:10:05 - 00:09:13:05

And usually it's it's

who's local to that area.

00:09:13:09 - 00:09:16:05

You know, if I have a forester in Michigan

and I'm in Ohio,

00:09:16:05 - 00:09:19:16

they might not want to travel

and do do work down there or, or whatever.

00:09:19:16 - 00:09:21:16

So I usually leave that up to the client.

00:09:23:19 - 00:09:24:10

But I do

00:09:24:10 - 00:09:27:15

think that state foresters are, are great.

00:09:27:15 - 00:09:30:09

They're just very busy as well.

00:09:30:09 - 00:09:33:02

So it really depends on who can get there.

00:09:33:02 - 00:09:36:13

And get the job done, per

the goals of the landowner.

00:09:37:11 - 00:09:38:03

Yeah.

00:09:38:03 - 00:09:43:03

What are you what's what's, what's a red

flag when, when a forester shows up

00:09:43:03 - 00:09:47:04

and you're like, oh, you know,

when we might need to look somewhere else?

00:09:48:12 - 00:09:51:13

When they all talk about, like, timber

value.

00:09:51:13 - 00:09:54:23

Only, you know, you get because,

I mean, they're, they're they're forestry.

00:09:55:00 - 00:09:55:09

Right.

00:09:55:09 - 00:09:59:20

So they're always about the health

of the forest and, or the timber value,

00:09:59:20 - 00:10:02:20

which is great

because they have to get paid, I get it.

00:10:02:21 - 00:10:08:12

But wildlife goals don't are not always

synonymous with timber value goals.

00:10:08:12 - 00:10:10:03

Right. So,

00:10:10:03 - 00:10:12:17

that's that's a little bit of a red flag.

00:10:12:17 - 00:10:15:23

So I would just urge folks

that if you are walking with the forester,

00:10:16:07 - 00:10:17:00

I urge you to.

00:10:17:00 - 00:10:19:00

Every time I do, I learn something.

00:10:19:00 - 00:10:23:06

But get your goals, convey your goals

clearly from the very beginning.

00:10:23:06 - 00:10:25:15

And that way, you know, the guy can say,

00:10:25:15 - 00:10:28:16

okay, we might want to cut this out

a little harder than maybe a select cut.

00:10:29:13 - 00:10:32:08

So that's that's really probably it.

00:10:32:08 - 00:10:36:17

Loggers that again, I'm skipping

past Forester I'm going to a logger.

00:10:37:12 - 00:10:39:18

A lot of red flags can be can be seen.

00:10:39:18 - 00:10:41:20

And I've dealt with most of them.

00:10:41:20 - 00:10:43:18

Unfortunately,

as well as my friends with their,

00:10:43:18 - 00:10:45:04

their properties and their projects.

00:10:45:04 - 00:10:48:10

So that's the Forester will help you,

00:10:48:11 - 00:10:48:16

you know,

00:10:48:16 - 00:10:52:18

as a little bit of an insurance policy,

if he runs, if he hires his logger

00:10:52:18 - 00:10:56:03

and he kind of runs the show for you,

he takes his percentage.

00:10:56:11 - 00:10:58:14

But then again, he's

kind of on the line too.

00:10:58:14 - 00:11:01:16

And you have a lesser chance of being,

you know, high graded or

00:11:02:01 - 00:11:05:06

or anything like that, where they'll take

all your good trees and leave you.

00:11:05:08 - 00:11:06:19

Leave you the junk.

00:11:06:19 - 00:11:09:18

What are the red

flags of the the the loggers?

00:11:11:02 - 00:11:12:09

Yeah.

00:11:12:09 - 00:11:13:03

Great question.

00:11:13:03 - 00:11:16:03

The stuff that I've dealt with would be

00:11:16:15 - 00:11:19:19

getting the project started on time.

00:11:20:00 - 00:11:23:00

Getting it finished.

00:11:23:06 - 00:11:26:06

Taking everything

they're supposed to take,

00:11:26:08 - 00:11:29:08

for instance, on my 40 acres.

00:11:29:17 - 00:11:31:03

I needed it done quickly.

00:11:31:03 - 00:11:35:05

And, they were already delaying forever,

so, like,

00:11:35:05 - 00:11:39:07

they didn't take a lot of the shagbark

hickory or soft the younger

00:11:39:07 - 00:11:42:08

soft maple that was still there,

that I wanted to take the aspen

00:11:42:08 - 00:11:43:14

as supposed to take all the aspen.

00:11:43:14 - 00:11:47:18

They took the nice big soft maple

and the oaks and got out.

00:11:48:10 - 00:11:50:00

So that's what you can be.

00:11:50:00 - 00:11:51:09

That's called being hydrated.

00:11:51:09 - 00:11:55:14

And that can happen to folks, because it's

a lot more work to take the junk trees.

00:11:56:08 - 00:11:59:12

You know, they can they can get

their good stuff and get paid and get out.

00:12:00:12 - 00:12:00:19

Another

00:12:00:19 - 00:12:03:19

one can be your roads when you're done.

00:12:03:21 - 00:12:06:21

You know,

it would be nice to have in the contract,

00:12:06:21 - 00:12:09:12

you know, at least fix my roads back up

to where they were before

00:12:09:12 - 00:12:12:12

you guys got here. Type situation.

00:12:12:12 - 00:12:14:15

Just because they get all rutted up from

00:12:14:15 - 00:12:17:15

from a cat being in there like that.

00:12:17:15 - 00:12:18:23

Very right.

00:12:18:23 - 00:12:21:17

And, and, you know, I,

I understand there's some of that

00:12:21:17 - 00:12:25:00

that comes with the logging,

you know, it's going to be a man.

00:12:25:17 - 00:12:28:21

But there are things like that

that, that you gotta watch out

00:12:28:21 - 00:12:31:21

for, payment, you know?

00:12:32:16 - 00:12:34:16

Yeah, there's,

there's a few different things that

00:12:34:16 - 00:12:36:23

few nightmares I've,

I've heard and gone through.

00:12:36:23 - 00:12:39:23

So I'm going to give you two scenarios.

00:12:40:03 - 00:12:43:04

And, this may or may not have

happened to my family twice.

00:12:45:20 - 00:12:49:05

They've,

they've had loggers approach them.

00:12:49:21 - 00:12:54:08

So, we know she got a real nice timber

back there, and one guy

00:12:54:08 - 00:12:58:07

even admitted to walking through it

like it shows up.

00:12:58:07 - 00:12:59:02

Who are you?

00:12:59:02 - 00:13:00:08

Oh, I'm a logger.

00:13:00:08 - 00:13:03:05

Yeah, I was walking in your timber

back there, and,

00:13:03:05 - 00:13:05:18

So, like, you know, just just.

00:13:05:18 - 00:13:09:03

Blatantly trespassing and,

00:13:10:01 - 00:13:13:01

and both times my family is, has,

00:13:14:07 - 00:13:16:11

gone with,

00:13:16:11 - 00:13:19:11

these, these loggers

that have approached them.

00:13:19:17 - 00:13:22:01

And overall, I don't think anything

00:13:22:01 - 00:13:25:01

too egregious has happened,

00:13:25:19 - 00:13:27:17

to the properties as a result of that.

00:13:27:17 - 00:13:31:06

But I did notice one,

I walked with a state Forester

00:13:31:06 - 00:13:34:06

because it was after I had

00:13:34:09 - 00:13:37:02

I had had been listening to, Wyatt Hunt.

00:13:37:02 - 00:13:40:22

I've been listening to your podcast,

the Habitat Podcast, and, it's either

00:13:40:22 - 00:13:44:04

you or Mark or maybe both of you guys

stressed that importance

00:13:44:04 - 00:13:47:05

of working with a qualified forester.

00:13:47:23 - 00:13:52:02

And so this happened before

I, I think both properties were logged.

00:13:53:14 - 00:13:55:13

No one property was logged.

00:13:55:13 - 00:13:58:07

Maybe I had hunted one year.

00:13:58:07 - 00:14:01:17

And so I didn't really understand

anything about habitat

00:14:01:17 - 00:14:04:21

other than like, it's important

because I was a biology teacher, you know,

00:14:04:21 - 00:14:08:11

but I didn't

I didn't understand the nuances of, of,

00:14:08:19 - 00:14:13:05

you know, manipulating an ecosystem

to make it healthier. And,

00:14:15:01 - 00:14:17:15

so I had a forester

00:14:17:15 - 00:14:21:09

come in after the fact and her comments.

00:14:21:09 - 00:14:21:23

She was great.

00:14:21:23 - 00:14:25:06

Her comments were like, you know,

next time, if your family decides to

00:14:25:08 - 00:14:28:11

to log, call me first

and then I can, I can,

00:14:29:08 - 00:14:33:00

you know, help

make sure that that, this is done

00:14:33:12 - 00:14:38:10

in the best way possible and, and,

she even mentions like, man,

00:14:38:10 - 00:14:40:23

they really did get all the walnuts,

didn't they?

00:14:40:23 - 00:14:46:16

You know, like, she was like, saying they

they came through and whatever

00:14:46:19 - 00:14:50:19

they could, you know, other than maybe

like a few, like, really, odd shaped,

00:14:51:15 - 00:14:54:15

not good timber value trees.

00:14:55:00 - 00:14:58:06

They, they got pretty much

all the walnut trees out

00:14:58:06 - 00:15:01:06

of, you know, that 40 acre

piece of timber.

00:15:01:11 - 00:15:04:03

And, I kind of noticed that, too.

00:15:04:03 - 00:15:06:07

Then years later and I didn't even

00:15:06:07 - 00:15:08:03

I didn't even know anything

about the second one

00:15:08:03 - 00:15:11:07

until I went back there to hang a tree

stand in the summer.

00:15:11:07 - 00:15:13:18

I'm like, Holy cow, what happened in here?

00:15:13:18 - 00:15:14:15

You know?

00:15:14:15 - 00:15:18:00

And, I was told, yeah,

this guy knocked on her door and

00:15:18:17 - 00:15:21:01

and he told us he'd pay us as much.

00:15:21:01 - 00:15:22:14

And so we said, go for it.

00:15:22:14 - 00:15:25:14

You know, walking around, there's like,

man, there's like, no walnuts left.

00:15:25:22 - 00:15:30:16

I mean, is that

is that almost always a bad situation

00:15:30:16 - 00:15:33:20

if the logger approaches you first or,

00:15:35:01 - 00:15:38:03

I mean, what would you

coach somebody to do in that situation?

00:15:38:03 - 00:15:41:04

Jared. Oh, man. Yeah. That's that's tough.

00:15:41:04 - 00:15:46:11

I would definitely for

you just more often than not.

00:15:47:04 - 00:15:50:04

Get a forester in there first.

00:15:50:08 - 00:15:53:08

I, I'm

sure there are great loggers out there.

00:15:54:06 - 00:15:57:02

I haven't met a ton of them yet,

but I'm sure there are great loggers out.

00:15:57:02 - 00:15:59:10

There that know.

00:15:59:10 - 00:16:01:09

Yeah.

00:16:01:09 - 00:16:03:16

You just have to make sure

they're not also Packer fans.

00:16:03:16 - 00:16:05:19

Is that what you're saying?

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

00:16:05:19 - 00:16:05:21

Yeah.

00:16:05:21 - 00:16:08:21

If they have a lion shirt

on, we're good to go.

00:16:10:09 - 00:16:10:21

They're going to.

00:16:10:21 - 00:16:13:14

They're going to try to pay you.

00:16:13:14 - 00:16:16:14

I mean, the less they pay you,

the more they make.

00:16:16:19 - 00:16:17:17

Right? That could.

00:16:17:17 - 00:16:21:19

I mean, that's a lot of been

a lot of business cost versus revenue.

00:16:21:19 - 00:16:22:09

Like, I get it.

00:16:24:00 - 00:16:28:13

But most

likely if you were to shop it out instead

00:16:28:13 - 00:16:32:15

or get a couple logging mills,

you know, competing for your bid,

00:16:32:23 - 00:16:36:07

you're going to you're going to get more

for the trees, the same trees.

00:16:36:20 - 00:16:39:05

So yeah.

00:16:39:05 - 00:16:41:03

And then you know again the Forester

00:16:41:03 - 00:16:44:17

has a responsibility to run that job to,

00:16:45:04 - 00:16:48:19

to what it's supposed to be readiness

and to the requirements of the contract.

00:16:48:19 - 00:16:51:12

And they're going to hold them

accountable.

00:16:51:12 - 00:16:52:00

Right.

00:16:52:00 - 00:16:53:13

You if they come there

00:16:53:13 - 00:16:57:17

and they give you a X amount of money

and they get your trees out, great.

00:16:58:01 - 00:16:59:22

Maybe, maybe that was perfect.

00:16:59:22 - 00:17:03:14

But I'm sure there were some other things

that that could have been done again.

00:17:03:14 - 00:17:07:18

Like like taking some of the,

the unwanted species out of there.

00:17:08:11 - 00:17:12:09

Other stuff that would help the habitat

that it's just going to cost them money.

00:17:12:19 - 00:17:14:23

So unless they have to do it,

why would they do it?

00:17:14:23 - 00:17:15:20

So yeah,

00:17:15:20 - 00:17:16:06

I would just

00:17:16:06 - 00:17:19:01

I would always urge you to work

with the forest or first, you know,

00:17:19:01 - 00:17:20:01

maybe after you've done

00:17:20:01 - 00:17:23:13

a few jobs and, you know, the loggers

personally, that's a different story.

00:17:24:11 - 00:17:28:03

Get in there and cut and don't

leave me hanging.

00:17:28:03 - 00:17:30:23

Then you know, that can be done. But,

yeah, I always go on.

00:17:30:23 - 00:17:31:03

Yeah,

00:17:32:14 - 00:17:32:23

yeah.

00:17:32:23 - 00:17:36:09

Well, I, I was not planning to quite go

this route in this conversation,

00:17:36:09 - 00:17:39:15

but I think this is

some of the most useful information.

00:17:39:15 - 00:17:43:09

Like I said, that situation

has happened to my family twice now.

00:17:43:14 - 00:17:47:22

So I imagine it's a pretty common practice

if if someone's tuning into this and,

00:17:47:22 - 00:17:49:11

and you own,

00:17:49:11 - 00:17:52:19

you know, some timber and maybe, you know,

usually if you're a whitetail guy

00:17:52:19 - 00:17:57:07

and you are the, the landowner, you know,

not just a permission piece

00:17:57:07 - 00:18:00:00

or in the family piece,

you're the guy calling the shots.

00:18:00:00 - 00:18:03:02

You're probably going to be pretty well

in tune with what's going on

00:18:03:02 - 00:18:03:22

and what's happening.

00:18:03:22 - 00:18:04:17

And you're going to

00:18:04:17 - 00:18:07:23

you're going to approach some guy

banging on your door saying he was

00:18:08:05 - 00:18:10:21

he was really impressed by his timber

when he was walking through it.

00:18:10:21 - 00:18:12:17

You're going to. You're.

00:18:12:17 - 00:18:15:17

You're going to be like, yeah,

by principle, I'm not going with you,

00:18:15:22 - 00:18:19:02

but a lot of people who

maybe aren't interested in the hunting,

00:18:20:05 - 00:18:20:16

and they,

00:18:20:16 - 00:18:23:23

they're

a landowner that has some, forested acres.

00:18:24:12 - 00:18:24:23

I would say

00:18:24:23 - 00:18:28:02

it's probably pretty likely someone's

going to show up at your door someday.

00:18:28:22 - 00:18:31:04

Wanting to,

00:18:31:04 - 00:18:33:02

tap into that resource that you have.

00:18:33:02 - 00:18:36:03

And so these are just

very practical advice from Jared here.

00:18:37:01 - 00:18:39:17

Well, I got a question about forestry,

and maybe it's

00:18:39:17 - 00:18:41:00

nothing you've ever dealt with.

00:18:41:00 - 00:18:45:16

If you ever help landowners with, like,

carbon credits with their forested areas.

00:18:46:17 - 00:18:50:05

You know,

I haven't, that's super interesting too,

00:18:50:05 - 00:18:53:10

because if you can get that

to work out in your favor,

00:18:54:05 - 00:18:58:09

and, and get signed up for it,

the benefits are be great, right?

00:18:58:09 - 00:19:01:09

Tax benefits,

all that, environmental benefits.

00:19:01:14 - 00:19:04:14

But I have not delved into that

very deeply.

00:19:05:20 - 00:19:06:15

We met.

00:19:06:15 - 00:19:08:21

We were at or Forest.

00:19:08:21 - 00:19:10:17

Carbon works is or you're thinking. Of.

00:19:10:17 - 00:19:13:06

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

So we were at Pheasant Fest and we had,

00:19:15:02 - 00:19:16:08

a booth right next to ours.

00:19:16:08 - 00:19:19:14

And that's what they did is Forest

Carbon Works and, and,

00:19:21:09 - 00:19:24:00

they're not paying us to say this super

nice guys.

00:19:24:00 - 00:19:27:20

They're across the US, but I,

I don't know, I kept Heather crossed.

00:19:28:03 - 00:19:28:22

Nicholas got cut.

00:19:28:22 - 00:19:31:19

Out to be a catch, and,

00:19:31:19 - 00:19:33:19

the, the

00:19:33:19 - 00:19:36:22

the whole thing is like,

they show up, they measure your trees,

00:19:37:13 - 00:19:40:18

and then basically, they come back

every year measuring your trees,

00:19:40:18 - 00:19:43:04

and they kind of pay you

for the difference, right?

00:19:43:04 - 00:19:45:04

Because that's

how much your trees are catching.

00:19:45:04 - 00:19:48:12

Cool. And, yeah, cool program.

00:19:48:12 - 00:19:52:08

I think basically if you have a forested

area, it's just like,

00:19:52:17 - 00:19:55:19

it's not like life changing cash,

but it's like a little bit,

00:19:57:07 - 00:19:59:03

a little more cash in your pocket

every year

00:19:59:03 - 00:20:02:10

for an area that I don't think

you have to do anything with.

00:20:03:15 - 00:20:04:19

But, yeah, I'd check it out.

00:20:04:19 - 00:20:06:20

Forest carbon works.

00:20:06:20 - 00:20:07:22

Thank you. Yeah.

00:20:07:22 - 00:20:08:12

So check that. Out.

00:20:08:12 - 00:20:10:13

I think it's,

00:20:10:13 - 00:20:13:16

And, I mean, you know,

you hear the criticisms all the time,

00:20:13:16 - 00:20:17:12

which are somewhat, you know,

I think they're.

00:20:17:12 - 00:20:21:08

I think what's a fair concern

sometimes becomes

00:20:21:08 - 00:20:25:19

accepted as a true like problem, you know.

00:20:26:01 - 00:20:30:06

And so you'll hear this with solar

as well, like, oh yeah, I would never

00:20:30:13 - 00:20:34:19

I would never, lease

any acres to a solar developer because

00:20:34:19 - 00:20:37:23

how do you know they're not going to stick

you with all the equipment?

00:20:37:23 - 00:20:40:09

Clean up, down the road and all that?

00:20:40:09 - 00:20:42:08

And the answer is have a good attorney.

00:20:42:08 - 00:20:42:19

Right.

00:20:42:19 - 00:20:46:14

You just make it very clear

in the contract,

00:20:48:01 - 00:20:51:05

what it's going to take

for you to participate in the deal.

00:20:51:09 - 00:20:55:16

And, and people will make

the same arguments

00:20:55:16 - 00:20:59:10

about like and again,

I think they're, they're, they're good,

00:21:01:03 - 00:21:03:09

risks to bring up.

00:21:03:09 - 00:21:06:15

But I think they can be

you can protect yourself from them.

00:21:06:15 - 00:21:09:15

And another

a similar thing happens when people

00:21:10:12 - 00:21:13:09

sign up for carbon credits

with their forest programs.

00:21:13:09 - 00:21:15:06

And, yeah, but what's the catch?

00:21:15:06 - 00:21:17:00

You know, or you know.

00:21:17:00 - 00:21:20:03

I sure would hate to be stuck

not being able to do anything with

00:21:20:16 - 00:21:25:14

and and so find the outfit

that matches those demands.

00:21:25:14 - 00:21:29:00

And, I remember with, forest carbon,

which was

00:21:29:06 - 00:21:32:00

we need to have these guys on the show

at some point.

00:21:32:00 - 00:21:32:08

Nicholas.

00:21:32:08 - 00:21:35:08

We talked about that

when we were at Pheasant Fest, but,

00:21:37:13 - 00:21:39:16

The guidelines that they told us is

00:21:39:16 - 00:21:43:22

you're not supposed to harvest

more than 10%

00:21:44:13 - 00:21:47:13

of your timber.

00:21:47:16 - 00:21:50:00

I believe it's each year of the contract,

00:21:50:00 - 00:21:53:02

you know, so

you can even still do some cutting, for,

00:21:53:06 - 00:21:56:06

you know, habitat improvement work or or,

00:21:56:15 - 00:21:59:07

you know, maybe just need firewood. But,

00:22:00:15 - 00:22:01:06

those, those

00:22:01:06 - 00:22:05:08

programs do seem to be pretty well,

er, airtight,

00:22:05:08 - 00:22:09:22

you know, as far as safe and, and and,

a good thing to be involved in. So.

00:22:10:14 - 00:22:13:20

Okay, here's a question

I have about the soil and the timber.

00:22:15:11 - 00:22:18:11

Generally, it seems most

00:22:18:14 - 00:22:21:23

forest soils and, acidic.

00:22:21:23 - 00:22:27:08

Is that a is

that is that a typical general situation?

00:22:27:10 - 00:22:30:10

You're I would say so. Yeah.

00:22:30:22 - 00:22:34:07

I'm a soil test and every everyone's

that I've, that I've been in.

00:22:34:07 - 00:22:36:04

But I do agree with that.

00:22:36:04 - 00:22:39:03

It seems like if trees

are going to grow there and get the ferns

00:22:39:03 - 00:22:42:18

and everything

else, usually trends that direction.

00:22:43:01 - 00:22:43:15

Yeah.

00:22:43:15 - 00:22:48:04

I mean, I've not been on a lot of places,

that I've had plots or done with that.

00:22:48:22 - 00:22:50:23

The soils are already

where it needs to be.

00:22:50:23 - 00:22:54:05

It's always it could be amended,

it could grow or could become more,

00:22:54:09 - 00:22:56:07

you know, for biology. So.

00:22:57:18 - 00:22:58:04

Sure.

00:22:58:04 - 00:22:59:18

So and when you're so

00:22:59:18 - 00:23:02:18

going back to earlier in the conversation

where you're saying you're looking at,

00:23:03:13 - 00:23:06:18

you want to have like a

what was it, a 50% open canopy

00:23:06:18 - 00:23:09:18

throughout a forest?

00:23:10:07 - 00:23:12:23

I assume you're

when you're making these clearings, you're

00:23:12:23 - 00:23:18:13

growing either batting cover

or some kind of food plot or,

00:23:18:15 - 00:23:23:03

you know, feeding area, transition

area screens,

00:23:23:03 - 00:23:26:03

something like that.

00:23:26:09 - 00:23:29:12

Every time,

if you're cutting trees, you're

00:23:29:12 - 00:23:34:05

probably going to be trying

to bring that up a little bit. And,

00:23:35:05 - 00:23:37:06

if you don't, which

00:23:37:06 - 00:23:40:06

I imagine is a common problem,

00:23:40:06 - 00:23:43:06

I could see people having a real hard time

getting something to grow.

00:23:44:15 - 00:23:45:02

Yeah.

00:23:45:02 - 00:23:48:14

And it's it's not even the real hard time

00:23:48:14 - 00:23:51:17

as much as it is to grow to

the plant's full potential.

00:23:52:17 - 00:23:54:08

As you guys know, stunted.

00:23:54:08 - 00:23:55:02

Yeah.

00:23:55:02 - 00:23:59:05

Stunted or even the the nutrients,

the taste, things like that.

00:24:01:00 - 00:24:02:06

Usually the nutrient uptake.

00:24:02:06 - 00:24:05:20

If if plants in the in a better buffer

zone of the pH level,

00:24:07:03 - 00:24:09:12

everything becomes more available for it,

and it's

00:24:09:12 - 00:24:13:09

just, it's healthier, taste

better, grows better.

00:24:13:09 - 00:24:13:16

Yeah.

00:24:13:16 - 00:24:16:23

So you can still get stuff

to grow in a five soil or four soil.

00:24:18:10 - 00:24:21:06

But it's just not up to a full potential.

00:24:21:06 - 00:24:23:13

Yeah, yeah. So soil tests are important.

00:24:23:13 - 00:24:26:13

Skip has talked about that

quite a bit in the past.

00:24:26:13 - 00:24:28:21

Nicolas.

00:24:28:21 - 00:24:32:14

Just the importance, I think he says

whenever he gets a new piece of ground

00:24:33:03 - 00:24:36:12

that he's going to be doing work on, he,

first thing he does is a bunch of,

00:24:37:06 - 00:24:42:01

soil testing to figure out what

what can grow there

00:24:42:02 - 00:24:45:08

now, how it's going to work

with what he wants to grow there.

00:24:45:19 - 00:24:50:12

And, I imagine even, you know, or

especially when you're clearing some,

00:24:50:12 - 00:24:53:23

some once forested ground for that,

I imagine it's even more important.

00:24:54:22 - 00:24:57:12

Which brings us to our, I wanted.

00:24:57:12 - 00:25:00:12

To ask. What?

00:25:00:17 - 00:25:03:07

Nothing worse

than you're listening to a podcast

00:25:03:07 - 00:25:04:20

and someone asks a banger question.

00:25:04:20 - 00:25:09:07

No one has any answers, for it, but,

And I'm worried that this will be this

00:25:09:07 - 00:25:11:20

because it's so weird. But, like,

00:25:11:20 - 00:25:14:20

humans seem to.

00:25:16:19 - 00:25:18:04

Enjoy

00:25:18:04 - 00:25:21:09

taste of something with nutrients up

and to a point.

00:25:21:14 - 00:25:24:15

And we've kind of evolved

past the nutrients we need.

00:25:24:15 - 00:25:27:15

And now we just taste

like things that have sugar in them.

00:25:27:20 - 00:25:30:03

And, but for like, deer

00:25:30:03 - 00:25:34:01

or we talk a lot about native pasture

for cows, you know, it is

00:25:34:01 - 00:25:39:00

there is their taste basically like,

what if it's better for them?

00:25:39:00 - 00:25:41:08

It tastes better for them.

So they eat at first.

00:25:41:08 - 00:25:42:06

Is that how that goes,

00:25:42:06 - 00:25:46:00

or do they actually have like a weird,

nuanced taste buds system?

00:25:46:00 - 00:25:46:14

Anybody know?

00:25:48:20 - 00:25:49:13

Good question.

00:25:49:13 - 00:25:53:00

I know that they are concentrate

selectors.

00:25:53:00 - 00:25:53:09

Right.

00:25:53:09 - 00:25:58:03

So when they're browsing

they naturally know which leaf of a plant

00:25:58:03 - 00:26:01:11

has more nutrients than the plant

next to it or a soybean plant.

00:26:03:04 - 00:26:06:15

But I've never talked to one of the deer

about what they like to taste better.

00:26:06:15 - 00:26:08:15

So I.

00:26:08:15 - 00:26:09:17

I know that. So try to.

00:26:09:17 - 00:26:13:03

Figure out if they're like, yeah,

if anybody's found like, well,

00:26:13:03 - 00:26:14:05

even though this thing doesn't

00:26:14:05 - 00:26:17:05

have as much nutrients in it,

they just love this thing.

00:26:18:04 - 00:26:18:14

Well, I.

00:26:18:14 - 00:26:20:16

Think where I have seen. That,

I find that.

00:26:20:16 - 00:26:21:22

Where it's lacking.

00:26:21:22 - 00:26:24:02

No, I mean, sorry not to interrupt.

00:26:24:02 - 00:26:27:02

Where there's where there's low

00:26:27:02 - 00:26:30:01

herbaceous vegetation and it's lacking.

00:26:30:01 - 00:26:35:00

You have deer eating autumn island plants

and ash trees and stuff like that.

00:26:35:00 - 00:26:37:19

So it probably has something to do with,

00:26:37:19 - 00:26:40:15

the carrying capacity of the habitat

in the deer population, too,

00:26:40:15 - 00:26:44:00

on what they'll prefer

and what they can, what they have to eat.

00:26:45:20 - 00:26:47:15

Yeah, that makes sense.

00:26:47:15 - 00:26:48:00

Yeah.

00:26:48:00 - 00:26:51:00

And, you know,

when we were putting together our,

00:26:51:08 - 00:26:53:15

our white tail mix seed

00:26:53:15 - 00:26:56:15

mix of different native forbs,

00:26:56:21 - 00:26:59:21

and doing that research, I found that.

00:27:01:01 - 00:27:01:20

You know, like, well,

00:27:01:20 - 00:27:04:20

what do you know, deer actually,

like, eating,

00:27:05:14 - 00:27:06:19

we found that rarely.

00:27:06:19 - 00:27:09:19

And I put quite a bit of research

into that. And,

00:27:11:08 - 00:27:13:13

we found that

00:27:13:13 - 00:27:15:14

a lot of the mint family

00:27:15:14 - 00:27:18:14

or, like, really strong smelling,

00:27:18:21 - 00:27:22:07

species were, were not preferred by deer.

00:27:22:07 - 00:27:25:07

And I don't think it's like,

I think sometimes people look at that as,

00:27:25:07 - 00:27:29:10

like, not preferred as, like, repellent,

you know, like it's repulsive to them.

00:27:29:10 - 00:27:32:18

And they, they'll walk out of their way

to avoid it, you know.

00:27:33:00 - 00:27:33:19

And that's not the case.

00:27:33:19 - 00:27:36:13

They just don't

they don't like, browsing on it.

00:27:36:13 - 00:27:41:16

And I got to think, because deer

have and smell is a part of taste.

00:27:43:07 - 00:27:46:07

I got to think

that because they have such a strong,

00:27:46:16 - 00:27:49:23

you know, smelling sense that,

00:27:51:07 - 00:27:53:23

they, you know, something

that's super pungent

00:27:53:23 - 00:27:57:04

or overbearing or very aromatic.

00:27:57:12 - 00:28:00:11

It's probably just overwhelming to them

would be my guess as to

00:28:00:11 - 00:28:02:00

how taste factors into it.

00:28:02:00 - 00:28:04:12

Nicholas.

00:28:04:12 - 00:28:06:01

All right. Well, I believe you.

00:28:06:01 - 00:28:07:09

I was just curious about that.

00:28:07:09 - 00:28:09:08

I'm trying to figure out

if they like cake or not.

00:28:09:08 - 00:28:11:18

I think you need to ask, I assume.

00:28:11:18 - 00:28:13:08

Yeah, I mean, the.

00:28:13:08 - 00:28:15:09

Farthest thing away from a deer.

00:28:15:09 - 00:28:18:09

Yeah, possibly.

00:28:18:19 - 00:28:21:18

I wonder, I wonder if we started

feeding animals sugar.

00:28:21:18 - 00:28:25:08

Like, if if it would be as yummy for them

as it is for us.

00:28:26:10 - 00:28:27:16

I'm sure that.

00:28:27:16 - 00:28:29:06

They're. Yeah, definitely.

00:28:29:06 - 00:28:31:14

You know,

00:28:31:14 - 00:28:33:08

one I remember when I was a kid,

00:28:34:11 - 00:28:35:14

we were,

00:28:35:14 - 00:28:41:03

we used to go backpacking in, southwest

with, Montana, and there was a mule deer

00:28:41:13 - 00:28:45:12

that my dad, like, would throw,

marshmallows to.

00:28:45:17 - 00:28:49:16

And and, man, she just she couldn't get

enough of those marshmallows, you know?

00:28:50:04 - 00:28:53:08

So there's there's got to be

there's got to be something like that.

00:28:53:22 - 00:28:56:16

But so, you know,

00:28:56:16 - 00:28:59:16

part of part of this conversation that,

00:28:59:18 - 00:29:03:09

people are probably wondering if we're

going to just avoid it to be, super nice.

00:29:04:21 - 00:29:07:17

Or if we're going to,

if we're going to go in with it and, and

00:29:07:17 - 00:29:10:14

talk about it, that some of this tension

that I'm sure you understand.

00:29:10:14 - 00:29:12:11

Well, Jared,

00:29:12:11 - 00:29:15:11

the where the conservation world

00:29:15:23 - 00:29:18:11

and the deer hunting world can collide,

00:29:18:11 - 00:29:21:11

which is not honestly, is not very

00:29:21:14 - 00:29:23:13

many times, like in most cases,

00:29:23:13 - 00:29:26:17

they they walk in tandem pretty well.

00:29:27:05 - 00:29:31:11

And, both are,

you know, both support the other

00:29:32:10 - 00:29:35:08

and the there's,

00:29:35:08 - 00:29:39:19

there is however, this one aspect of

and our friend, Doug

00:29:39:19 - 00:29:44:01

Dern refers to it

as the whitetail Industrial complex.

00:29:45:00 - 00:29:48:00

And, I think he got that,

00:29:48:01 - 00:29:51:01

that phrase from another friend of ours,

Ryan Callahan,

00:29:51:13 - 00:29:54:13

the, the idea of

00:29:55:08 - 00:29:58:09

this is all about deer

are here for the hunter.

00:29:58:09 - 00:30:01:09

Right? And,

00:30:01:16 - 00:30:04:12

deer hunting is all

about the experience of the hunter.

00:30:04:12 - 00:30:07:06

You know, they want to have fun.

They want to.

00:30:07:06 - 00:30:11:23

They want to, you know, meet life goals

of shooting the biggest buck.

00:30:11:23 - 00:30:14:23

And they

they want to have something to eat.

00:30:15:06 - 00:30:17:08

And, and, it

00:30:17:08 - 00:30:20:08

can almost become this extraction

00:30:20:13 - 00:30:25:19

aspect or activity,

I guess is a better word extraction

00:30:25:19 - 00:30:29:14

activity as opposed to a conservation

based activity.

00:30:30:02 - 00:30:32:15

And and we had Doug was just here

00:30:32:15 - 00:30:35:15

with us last week and we talked about,

00:30:36:16 - 00:30:38:23

you know, hunting

00:30:38:23 - 00:30:43:09

by itself is an

it is an extraction activity.

00:30:43:11 - 00:30:44:10

It really is.

00:30:44:10 - 00:30:48:01

And to just say hunting is conservation,

which is something you probably remember

00:30:48:01 - 00:30:51:02

being preached, you know, on

00:30:51:02 - 00:30:55:00

every hunting podcast,

probably my own included five years ago.

00:30:57:17 - 00:30:58:19

Hunting is conservation.

00:30:58:19 - 00:31:00:15

Hunting is conservation.

00:31:00:15 - 00:31:04:08

And, and, people like like Doug

00:31:04:08 - 00:31:08:03

and and, you know, Doug

kind of open my eyes to it.

00:31:08:03 - 00:31:10:21

And I know other guys

have kind of started to come around.

00:31:10:21 - 00:31:12:16

We can look at and be like, whoa,

wait a minute.

00:31:12:16 - 00:31:17:07

This isn't really resembling conservation,

where we're maybe doing

00:31:17:07 - 00:31:23:08

we're making decisions for the the forest

that are not necessarily based on.

00:31:23:16 - 00:31:27:12

Yeah, this is going to be really good

for the, pileated woodpeckers.

00:31:27:22 - 00:31:31:14

No, it's it's, man,

this is going to help me kill more deer

00:31:32:04 - 00:31:35:21

and, or this is going to be really good

for the water quality

00:31:35:21 - 00:31:39:17

versus man,

that's going to be a great kill plot spot.

00:31:39:17 - 00:31:43:12

I can put my stand right over here

and I'm going to have

00:31:43:12 - 00:31:46:12

a chance at,

you know, like an awesome buck.

00:31:46:15 - 00:31:49:18

And that that

00:31:50:18 - 00:31:52:04

reality, I think is

00:31:52:04 - 00:31:55:04

kind of a that realization

00:31:55:04 - 00:31:58:08

is kind of a new one, I think, in the,

00:31:59:15 - 00:32:01:18

whitetail world.

00:32:01:18 - 00:32:04:22

And it seems like

a lot of people are starting

00:32:04:23 - 00:32:08:00

to, like, come around to it,

you know, like, yeah, you know, it's

00:32:08:13 - 00:32:11:13

maybe we do need to look at this deeper,

but there's also something like,

00:32:12:13 - 00:32:13:12

don't bother me with that.

00:32:13:12 - 00:32:16:07

I just want good hunting,

00:32:16:07 - 00:32:17:08

I guess. What?

00:32:17:08 - 00:32:21:13

First of all, what

what are your comments on this reality

00:32:21:13 - 00:32:26:15

that we're kind of seeing more

and more in the deer habitat space?

00:32:27:22 - 00:32:30:09

Yeah, that's that's all a good take.

00:32:30:09 - 00:32:35:05

And I think that I mean,

even if somebody is not doing everything

00:32:35:05 - 00:32:38:21

they could for the benefit of the land,

the habitat in the wildlife,

00:32:39:11 - 00:32:42:18

I guess hunting is conservation,

maybe because you're buying a license

00:32:42:18 - 00:32:46:00

and that those funds are going to

maybe some real programs.

00:32:46:03 - 00:32:48:15

But on a personal level,

I know what you're saying.

00:32:50:10 - 00:32:52:01

I think people are more educated now.

00:32:52:01 - 00:32:52:13

You know, there's

00:32:52:13 - 00:32:56:13

so much content out there

at your fingertips that you can listen to.

00:32:56:13 - 00:32:58:17

And even myself,

I'm talking about different stuff

00:32:58:17 - 00:33:01:12

these days on the podcast

than seven years ago when I started.

00:33:01:12 - 00:33:02:19

For sure, sure.

00:33:02:19 - 00:33:05:17

Like I don't even want to go back in here

at times, you know, because it's like.

00:33:05:17 - 00:33:08:03

Yeah,

00:33:08:03 - 00:33:09:22

oh, I hear that, dude.

00:33:09:22 - 00:33:10:23

Yeah. Yeah.

00:33:10:23 - 00:33:15:10

It's just, I would say

you don't know what you don't know.

00:33:15:10 - 00:33:17:15

So maybe there's

00:33:17:15 - 00:33:19:09

maybe there's, a gap.

00:33:19:09 - 00:33:22:16

I'm sure there's a gap

there on what people can be

00:33:22:16 - 00:33:25:16

educated on and make decisions on, but,

00:33:26:16 - 00:33:30:15

I mean, habitat

thing is definitely been more of a focus.

00:33:30:15 - 00:33:32:20

I'm seeing it more on everybody's

property.

00:33:32:20 - 00:33:36:15

Used to be just talking about how to kill

big deer, how to kill the deer.

00:33:36:15 - 00:33:40:21

Now you see everybody doing the ASI and

native grass planting and stuff like that.

00:33:41:04 - 00:33:44:03

Not everybody, but more

so than five years ago.

00:33:44:03 - 00:33:44:12

Right?

00:33:45:17 - 00:33:46:18

Yeah, yeah, I think that's

00:33:46:18 - 00:33:49:16

I think the education part of

that is a really good take.

00:33:49:16 - 00:33:53:23

You know, we just there is so much more

information available now. And,

00:33:55:03 - 00:33:59:17

and in some ways you kind of wonder

what took so long because we all

00:34:00:08 - 00:34:03:12

you probably remember this year

everyone used to always

00:34:03:12 - 00:34:07:22

just refer to prairie as CRP,

you know, oh, I got some crp or that.

00:34:08:00 - 00:34:10:21

And it had nothing to do with like.

00:34:10:21 - 00:34:11:08

Being a.

00:34:11:08 - 00:34:15:00

Part of a conservation,

a federally funded conservation program.

00:34:15:00 - 00:34:16:10

It's just like, that's what we know.

00:34:16:10 - 00:34:18:02

Tallgrass that is native.

00:34:18:02 - 00:34:21:20

We know it is crp

and and that wasn't that long ago.

00:34:21:20 - 00:34:25:04

That was five years ago, I would say,

when that was what the majority of people

00:34:25:04 - 00:34:28:18

now people are starting to say

native grasses or prairie,

00:34:30:15 - 00:34:32:08

and so I

00:34:32:08 - 00:34:36:12

think, I think your take on education

being so

00:34:37:14 - 00:34:39:17

such a big part of the

00:34:39:17 - 00:34:42:17

this evolution, I think is huge.

00:34:43:03 - 00:34:47:18

What I guess a thing that I try to.

00:34:48:07 - 00:34:53:20

Yeah, we recently talked with, Patrick,

Kaiser and Nicholas.

00:34:53:20 - 00:34:56:19

I remember you asked him about

before we start recording.

00:34:56:19 - 00:34:59:19

Is is there anything you really want

to convey here?

00:35:00:02 - 00:35:01:00

In this podcast?

00:35:01:00 - 00:35:03:00

Like, there's a main point

you want us to hit on.

00:35:03:00 - 00:35:06:00

Do you remember what it was, Nicholas.

00:35:06:04 - 00:35:07:02

Stopped working.

00:35:07:02 - 00:35:08:13

Working landscape?

00:35:08:13 - 00:35:10:22

Yes, the working landscape.

00:35:10:22 - 00:35:14:05

He said, I want people to understand that.

00:35:15:15 - 00:35:18:15

I think it's important

that we have a working landscape

00:35:18:15 - 00:35:21:15

where,

00:35:22:03 - 00:35:24:14

he's a guy who highly values conservation.

00:35:24:14 - 00:35:24:18

Right?

00:35:24:18 - 00:35:28:09

He's an expert in native plants

and and how they're used

00:35:28:09 - 00:35:31:19

for pasturing animals, livestock.

00:35:32:12 - 00:35:35:11

And I kind of view deer hunting as,

00:35:37:09 - 00:35:40:09

we that question needs to be answered,

00:35:41:20 - 00:35:42:17

to some degree.

00:35:42:17 - 00:35:45:17

And I don't think it's

the same as livestock.

00:35:46:00 - 00:35:49:19

Because you're dealing purely with nature

when you're dealing with,

00:35:49:19 - 00:35:54:04

with, deer hunting,

you're, you're dealing with a wild animal

00:35:54:04 - 00:35:59:03

in a wild place,

in a, in a wild ecosystem. And,

00:36:00:13 - 00:36:04:06

so it's not it's not,

the same as, like, dealing with

00:36:04:06 - 00:36:07:06

where am I going to be sticking my cows

or my goats or whatever?

00:36:08:13 - 00:36:13:12

But how do you I,

I guess there's no right answer here.

00:36:13:12 - 00:36:16:15

And this isn't a gotcha question

by any means, but

00:36:16:19 - 00:36:19:15

how do we determine, like.

00:36:19:15 - 00:36:20:16

Yeah, you know,

00:36:20:16 - 00:36:25:08

a certain percentage of this farm

can be a corn kill plot or a soybean kill

00:36:25:09 - 00:36:29:18

plot, or a brassica kill plot, and,

another percentage of it's

00:36:29:18 - 00:36:33:22

going to be native, tree

and, and, prairie species.

00:36:34:10 - 00:36:35:15

I mean, how, like

00:36:36:17 - 00:36:39:22

where I guess what I'm asking

you to do is shake the crystal ball here

00:36:39:22 - 00:36:43:15

a little bit and as we continue to mature

00:36:43:15 - 00:36:46:15

in this conversation.

00:36:47:18 - 00:36:48:15

Where

00:36:48:15 - 00:36:51:15

what can what conclusion

do we come to with hunting

00:36:51:22 - 00:36:54:22

and how the land is used?

00:36:55:14 - 00:36:58:00

You know, that's an interesting question.

00:36:58:00 - 00:37:02:03

I think when I look at it, I try to use

00:37:02:18 - 00:37:07:03

every usable inch of my farm

and improve that.

00:37:07:09 - 00:37:12:02

You know, it's it's only 40 acres,

so you're limited on on what you can do.

00:37:12:02 - 00:37:16:10

But I think that, if you can make

every inch of it better, that's that's

00:37:16:10 - 00:37:19:11

what I try to do, is what I would convey

in my plans for folks to,

00:37:21:01 - 00:37:24:08

I don't know what the actual percentage

would be, but I think that,

00:37:25:16 - 00:37:28:13

you know, it

depends on what your goals are to really.

00:37:28:13 - 00:37:31:04

And not everybody cares

about the stuff that we care about.

00:37:31:04 - 00:37:34:04

So that's that can be what's hard.

00:37:35:01 - 00:37:38:04

I said the more the better, you know,

but you got some guys

00:37:38:04 - 00:37:42:00

who just want to go out there and throw

some corn down and shoot a couple deer.

00:37:42:00 - 00:37:44:18

And, you know, that's

that's what they're happy with.

00:37:44:18 - 00:37:46:01

That's what it's all they're going to do.

00:37:46:01 - 00:37:49:02

They aren't going to put all that extra

blood, sweat and tears into, you know,

00:37:49:03 - 00:37:52:03

the stuff that we care about.

00:37:53:05 - 00:37:55:01

So yeah, I try to smack

00:37:55:01 - 00:37:58:01

every beat I can, honestly,

because you only have so much.

00:37:59:05 - 00:38:00:01

Yeah.

00:38:00:01 - 00:38:03:01

I'm curious about the,

00:38:03:04 - 00:38:04:16

perennial food plot.

00:38:04:16 - 00:38:07:06

Like the native perennial food plot,

from what I could tell.

00:38:07:06 - 00:38:10:06

And I did research it

quite a bit. I'm not.

00:38:10:12 - 00:38:12:02

I could totally be wrong.

00:38:12:02 - 00:38:14:15

We were the first, like,

00:38:16:09 - 00:38:17:11

company to, like, have.

00:38:17:11 - 00:38:19:07

That's a product that we have, right?

00:38:19:07 - 00:38:21:06

I'm sure people put them in.

00:38:21:06 - 00:38:24:14

But they had to, like, go to a native

seed company and be like, hey, I want

00:38:24:21 - 00:38:27:01

a bunch of things that are good for deer

that are native,

00:38:27:01 - 00:38:28:01

you know, I'm sure that happen.

00:38:28:01 - 00:38:31:03

But, in fact, I know what happened

because that's how I got the idea.

00:38:31:03 - 00:38:34:09

Someone came to me for that idea. And,

00:38:36:09 - 00:38:40:06

but I'm curious because we're getting more

00:38:40:06 - 00:38:44:05

and more orders for that,

you know, in the, in the hunting world.

00:38:44:05 - 00:38:45:16

And I'm actually not

00:38:45:16 - 00:38:47:20

I think people would listen to me

and think I'm like, totally

00:38:47:20 - 00:38:52:05

against a food plot, like a brassica

or, a sorghum or something.

00:38:52:05 - 00:38:56:19

And I'm not at all,

I just think that it actually makes

00:38:57:23 - 00:38:59:10

more sense to put

00:38:59:10 - 00:39:02:10

the perennial food plot and the,

00:39:02:13 - 00:39:05:13

the native perennial food plot

right next to the,

00:39:06:15 - 00:39:10:03

the annual food plot,

because then you train the,

00:39:10:14 - 00:39:13:20

the whitetail that you have food here

all, all year,

00:39:14:03 - 00:39:16:20

and then they've got something

that they really desire

00:39:16:20 - 00:39:18:20

towards in the fall,

and then they're hanging out there.

00:39:18:20 - 00:39:22:06

So it makes it for,

for the hunting to go better.

00:39:22:06 - 00:39:25:00

But I,

00:39:25:00 - 00:39:27:02

or at least that's my theory.

00:39:27:02 - 00:39:30:13

And I'm curious, have you,

because we're getting more orders

00:39:30:13 - 00:39:33:04

and it could just be that our website's

attracting more people.

00:39:33:04 - 00:39:36:08

I'm curious if you ever see that

where people are like, well,

00:39:36:20 - 00:39:39:12

can we put down some perennial,

00:39:39:12 - 00:39:42:07

things that will keep them?

00:39:42:07 - 00:39:45:07

Concentrate selecting.

00:39:45:07 - 00:39:47:03

Yeah. Great question. And I think

00:39:48:13 - 00:39:50:18

I think

I'll look at that a couple different ways.

00:39:50:18 - 00:39:52:06

We do get that requests.

00:39:52:06 - 00:39:55:06

I own a food plot

seed company with a partner, as well.

00:39:55:19 - 00:39:57:17

I think you guys, you're

you're such great.

00:39:57:17 - 00:39:59:18

I love the mixes on there.

00:39:59:18 - 00:40:02:18

I try to get a lot of my native stuff

00:40:03:02 - 00:40:05:10

by working on what's already there.

00:40:05:10 - 00:40:08:09

You know, in the forest,

by giving it, like, a lot.

00:40:08:09 - 00:40:10:01

You know, there's, as you guys both know,

00:40:10:01 - 00:40:12:18

thousands and millions of seeds

that are sitting there ready to go.

00:40:12:18 - 00:40:14:00

Yeah. Yeah.

00:40:14:00 - 00:40:16:22

But we have done orders,

00:40:16:22 - 00:40:21:09

custom orders for folks

who want to put in more natives.

00:40:21:09 - 00:40:23:11

Like you're talking about themselves.

00:40:23:11 - 00:40:27:08

Maybe they're converting a corn field

that's been tilled and killed for,

00:40:27:14 - 00:40:29:06

you know, how many years?

00:40:29:06 - 00:40:30:04

So we've actually done that.

00:40:30:04 - 00:40:32:06

We've actually put together, mixes.

00:40:32:06 - 00:40:36:12

Not too far, unlike years

where, where guys want that right away,

00:40:37:01 - 00:40:39:20

they don't want to manage

cool season grasses and wait for all.

00:40:39:20 - 00:40:41:21

They just

they want it right away to get that.

00:40:41:21 - 00:40:45:02

And I would also agree

that having that next to,

00:40:46:12 - 00:40:47:00

a brassica

00:40:47:00 - 00:40:50:01

plot or a clover plot

or something is as awesome.

00:40:50:01 - 00:40:52:09

And that's kind of

what happens in on my farms.

00:40:52:09 - 00:40:55:22

The, the early successional growth right

next to my food

00:40:55:22 - 00:40:59:10

plot is ragweed poke weed, you know,

00:40:59:10 - 00:41:02:10

young forest stuff that that is native

that they're going to eat.

00:41:03:16 - 00:41:06:07

And a lot of the times

that's got more protein and stuff in it

00:41:06:07 - 00:41:07:19

than, than some of the seeds we plant.

00:41:07:19 - 00:41:13:19

So I don't look at food plots

as, as a, as a way to feed deer

00:41:14:05 - 00:41:18:14

as much as a native forest

or native ecosystem.

00:41:18:14 - 00:41:23:12

I look at them as the ice cream

after dinner type thing, you know,

00:41:23:12 - 00:41:26:16

to get them, to get them

maybe to where I want them for,

00:41:26:19 - 00:41:29:18

archery opportunity.

00:41:29:18 - 00:41:31:14

To get on camera, stuff like that.

00:41:31:14 - 00:41:34:02

So you're I totally agree with you.

00:41:34:02 - 00:41:35:23

One next to the other would be preferred

00:41:37:13 - 00:41:38:00

man. Yeah,

00:41:38:00 - 00:41:41:22

I, I love that take to to me

that that balances it

00:41:41:22 - 00:41:46:00

well because what I don't want is

I don't want the I'm not trying

00:41:46:14 - 00:41:49:14

for people that hunt to hear us say like,

00:41:49:23 - 00:41:52:04

you need to quit doing that

and just plant prairie.

00:41:52:04 - 00:41:54:18

Quit going after you.

Why are you going after deer?

00:41:54:18 - 00:41:59:21

My, my whole goal is,

Because I'm a strong believer in win wins.

00:42:00:12 - 00:42:03:20

My whole goal is, is to say that

actually the working landscape,

00:42:05:08 - 00:42:07:04

works,

00:42:07:04 - 00:42:10:14

helps, you know,

you're you're going to see bigger bucks,

00:42:10:14 - 00:42:12:20

you're going to see more,

00:42:12:20 - 00:42:15:03

more deer on your, your landscape.

00:42:15:03 - 00:42:15:22

And, actually,

00:42:15:22 - 00:42:19:09

we're working on a project right now

with some of the with some of the,

00:42:19:22 - 00:42:23:10

big names in the White Hill industry

and people who really believe

00:42:23:10 - 00:42:27:04

in, like, the working landscape and,

and seeing these native perennials and

00:42:27:04 - 00:42:28:09

what they do for,

00:42:29:20 - 00:42:31:08

for the,

00:42:31:08 - 00:42:34:03

the not just the ecosystem, but hunting,

you know,

00:42:34:03 - 00:42:37:02

the hunting goes better. So,

00:42:37:02 - 00:42:40:11

I as a non hunter, I got

I got to be careful

00:42:40:18 - 00:42:43:15

because I don't want to say like,

hey, this is the authority.

00:42:43:15 - 00:42:45:14

So I when I'm

talking to people on the phone,

00:42:45:14 - 00:42:49:04

I lean a lot on like, well, this is what

doctor Mark Turner says, right?

00:42:49:11 - 00:42:53:09

This is what skips live from Iowa

White to the Iowa Whitetail Forum.

00:42:53:09 - 00:42:54:20

This is what he says.

00:42:54:20 - 00:42:55:03

You know,

00:42:55:03 - 00:42:59:07

and so I just start rolling through

those things, and I've learned a lot.

00:42:59:07 - 00:43:01:04

And it's a big part of the reason

we wanted to have you on.

00:43:01:04 - 00:43:02:15

Is just so.

00:43:02:15 - 00:43:02:23

That we,

00:43:02:23 - 00:43:06:15

you know, we could learn and really keep

a pulse on where hunters are at because,

00:43:07:14 - 00:43:10:21

I don't believe because you're a hunter,

you're conservationist.

00:43:10:21 - 00:43:14:10

I do like that the tags support things,

but I will say

00:43:15:03 - 00:43:18:22

tons and tons and tons of the hunters

that I interact with.

00:43:19:02 - 00:43:21:12

And I imagine that's what they're like,

you know, even

00:43:21:12 - 00:43:24:22

the ones that don't interact with

our conservation, they really do care.

00:43:25:02 - 00:43:26:18

So I think that's true.

00:43:26:18 - 00:43:29:08

And I don't want to take that away

from hunters. But then I get to sit down.

00:43:29:08 - 00:43:29:21

I would like you,

00:43:29:21 - 00:43:33:12

Jared, and learn and be able to connect

with them at a deeper level.

00:43:34:03 - 00:43:37:17

I would even go a little bit further,

Nicolas, with that statement and say that

00:43:37:23 - 00:43:41:10

that, the best, like the, the,

00:43:41:10 - 00:43:46:12

the most passionate conservationists,

not always probably,

00:43:46:12 - 00:43:49:22

but almost always participate

in hunting as well.

00:43:50:08 - 00:43:52:22

And I think, I think that I think the,

00:43:53:23 - 00:43:55:18

reason,

00:43:55:18 - 00:43:57:20

that that is the case

00:43:57:20 - 00:44:01:13

is because they have a very

00:44:01:21 - 00:44:05:10

they have a very valuable stake in,

00:44:08:00 - 00:44:09:16

conservation working out.

00:44:09:16 - 00:44:10:11

Right.

00:44:10:11 - 00:44:14:05

They have they have a very,

you know, a tangible thing

00:44:14:05 - 00:44:18:14

that they put a lot of time

and a lot of money and, a lot of their

00:44:18:18 - 00:44:21:22

I mean, let's be honest, Jared,

we we could both probably list.

00:44:23:05 - 00:44:27:12

I bet you we could go for 15 or 20 minutes

between the two of us,

00:44:27:12 - 00:44:32:13

just going back and forth,

listing people who live their life around,

00:44:34:11 - 00:44:36:10

deer and,

00:44:36:10 - 00:44:41:17

and, have a very strong conservation ethic

because of that, you know, relationship

00:44:41:17 - 00:44:46:10

that care for or or some other animal

like, you know, bear hunting, whatever.

00:44:46:21 - 00:44:48:22

But but,

00:44:48:22 - 00:44:53:18

I think, I think that a lot of hunters,

it can be like this extra drive.

00:44:53:18 - 00:44:56:00

That was something

Carol used to talk about a lot. Was,

00:44:58:11 - 00:45:01:14

In fact, is when I interviewed

viewed here with you, Nicholas,

00:45:01:14 - 00:45:04:16

and I was when I first met Carol,

and he talked about.

00:45:04:16 - 00:45:07:16

Well, it's good that you have drive,

because that'll motivate you when,

00:45:08:02 - 00:45:11:07

times are hard, you know, and and,

00:45:12:09 - 00:45:14:10

I think that that drive

00:45:14:10 - 00:45:19:19

of having that hunting

motivation, can be a huge

00:45:19:19 - 00:45:25:05

and, and has been through time,

a huge motivator for folks who,

00:45:26:18 - 00:45:27:22

care about conservation.

00:45:27:22 - 00:45:30:22

Not always, but oftentimes is true.

00:45:33:13 - 00:45:35:13

Along those lines,

00:45:35:13 - 00:45:38:13

you know, of of,

00:45:38:16 - 00:45:43:16

you know, making good choices, that's,

that's good for the land, but also having

00:45:43:16 - 00:45:48:15

an understanding for, where maybe

some of these non-native plots make sense.

00:45:49:16 - 00:45:52:15

I, I got to witness this

for the first time this spring.

00:45:52:15 - 00:45:53:15

Jared.

00:45:53:15 - 00:45:56:04

I got invited to, Shad hunt with a friend,

00:45:57:05 - 00:45:59:15

and, this

00:45:59:15 - 00:46:02:17

is, like, kind of in good sharing the land

practice here.

00:46:02:17 - 00:46:04:09

Nicholas.

00:46:04:09 - 00:46:06:04

While I was there, they know that I.

00:46:06:04 - 00:46:07:12

I work on a prairie farm,

00:46:07:12 - 00:46:10:18

and they're like,

hey, we got, some prairie that he's burned

00:46:10:20 - 00:46:15:00

per our CRP contract, and,

we're kind of nervous about it.

00:46:15:14 - 00:46:20:03

And so, they had me, help them burn. And,

00:46:21:14 - 00:46:23:08

I was kind of nervous about it,

to be honest with you,

00:46:23:08 - 00:46:25:19

because it's been so long since.

00:46:25:19 - 00:46:31:10

And I've done a few prairie burns

where it's been, you know, your tent.

00:46:31:11 - 00:46:34:11

Most contracts

require once every ten years.

00:46:35:03 - 00:46:37:11

And there's guys that go

00:46:37:11 - 00:46:40:13

that hold 9 or 10 years before they burn.

00:46:40:13 - 00:46:43:13

And there is so much,

00:46:44:04 - 00:46:46:16

my friend

Luke Fritsch and I call under burn

00:46:46:16 - 00:46:50:17

that's going on where you have

all this thatch close to the ground

00:46:50:17 - 00:46:54:00

that just stays so hot

and just keeps burning and burning.

00:46:54:22 - 00:46:56:18

And so I was kind of nervous about it.

00:46:56:18 - 00:47:00:22

But what they had there

because they were huge, whitetail guys is

00:47:00:22 - 00:47:05:03

they had a clover, firebreak

around their prairies.

00:47:05:15 - 00:47:08:02

And man, did that work. Well.

00:47:08:02 - 00:47:12:08

And so I think that in the

in the idea of a working landscape,

00:47:12:08 - 00:47:17:02

it makes a whole lot of sense to have that

cool season firebreak growing.

00:47:17:02 - 00:47:19:03

Or some people plant

some of that in their timber,

00:47:19:03 - 00:47:22:14

I'm sure, you know, to kind of keep things

from going out of control on the timber,

00:47:22:16 - 00:47:24:15

because if it's a really green up time.

00:47:24:15 - 00:47:26:02

And so I think that's another great way.

00:47:27:10 - 00:47:28:20

Yeah, I, I agree with that.

00:47:28:20 - 00:47:32:21

We've done some work with, the Bee

and Butterfly Habitat Fund

00:47:32:21 - 00:47:35:21

and some of the,

the natives that they like to plant.

00:47:36:18 - 00:47:40:15

Our percentage, they like to have clover

in there for some of the pollinators.

00:47:40:15 - 00:47:45:17

And that's exactly how I set it up

as a firebreaks around that,

00:47:45:17 - 00:47:48:22

or even the CRP contract,

you can have a certain percentage and,

00:47:49:03 - 00:47:52:14

and food plots or whatever else

but the firebreak

00:47:52:14 - 00:47:56:05

like a clover firebreak that's benefiting

2 or 3 things right there.

00:47:56:05 - 00:47:58:01

Right. Get your firebreak. Yeah.

00:47:58:01 - 00:47:59:19

Pollinating your feed and wildlife.

00:47:59:19 - 00:48:02:14

I mean, that's a win win win.

00:48:02:14 - 00:48:03:08

Yeah, yeah.

00:48:03:08 - 00:48:04:03

So I you know,

00:48:04:03 - 00:48:08:03

I think it's a great example

of where a non-native species can be used.

00:48:08:07 - 00:48:11:03

And also guys do

them for trails too you know.

00:48:12:07 - 00:48:14:07

If you're going to use,

00:48:14:07 - 00:48:17:00

you know, to kind of go

back to what Nicholas was stating,

00:48:17:00 - 00:48:20:16

if we follow the logical progression

of no,

00:48:20:16 - 00:48:24:20

if it's got to be 100% native

100% of the time,

00:48:26:07 - 00:48:28:06

then should you really even have

00:48:28:06 - 00:48:31:06

trails on your property,

maybe you should just,

00:48:32:15 - 00:48:35:08

you know, hoof it around your property

00:48:35:08 - 00:48:39:10

and walk, you know, through the timber

like a deer would, you know, and, and,

00:48:39:17 - 00:48:43:00

so I think that even, you know,

erosion control on some of those,

00:48:43:10 - 00:48:46:14

some of those trails, I think clover

makes a lot of sense for that as well.

00:48:47:16 - 00:48:48:04

I, I'm.

00:48:48:04 - 00:48:50:08

Curious about like,

00:48:50:08 - 00:48:53:08

I've talked about it before, but

you would have your pulse on it better.

00:48:53:08 - 00:48:53:17

Jared.

00:48:53:17 - 00:48:59:01

The the, evolution of hunters seems to be

00:49:00:09 - 00:49:03:09

they they kill Buck.

00:49:03:12 - 00:49:05:20

They want a bigger buck.

They want a bigger buck.

00:49:05:20 - 00:49:07:22

And then,

00:49:07:22 - 00:49:12:05

they start to notice,

you know, resource issues.

00:49:12:13 - 00:49:14:11

So they start to care about resources.

00:49:14:11 - 00:49:17:09

And then all of a sudden, they change from

just caring about the resource

00:49:17:09 - 00:49:23:11

to like, overall conservation and birds

and pollinators and, and soil and water.

00:49:23:16 - 00:49:25:10

And then somewhere in there

00:49:25:10 - 00:49:28:03

they start really caring

about the next generation as well.

00:49:28:03 - 00:49:30:12

Not an exact science

of how that evolution goes.

00:49:30:12 - 00:49:33:14

But, I'm curious

if you've seen that and like

00:49:33:14 - 00:49:36:14

if you would speak to that at all.

00:49:37:01 - 00:49:40:11

Yeah, I think that's a pretty good, pulse,

00:49:40:11 - 00:49:44:00

I would say, you know, as, as a hunter.

00:49:44:04 - 00:49:46:01

And we covered this in a certain podcast.

00:49:46:01 - 00:49:47:21

I did a while back.

I remember now that you're saying it,

00:49:49:07 - 00:49:52:07

you started

out just wanting to shoot anything, right?

00:49:52:14 - 00:49:56:13

And then you want to shoot numbers,

like a ton of deer or whatever,

00:49:56:13 - 00:50:00:17

and then it becomes, okay, maybe

a certain Deer Age caliber, and then you,

00:50:01:03 - 00:50:04:03

like you said, you get into the habitats,

if you want your kids.

00:50:04:04 - 00:50:07:04

So I would say the evolution

is as pretty accurate.

00:50:07:17 - 00:50:11:19

And I would say I have definitely hit

00:50:11:19 - 00:50:14:19

that pretty close, you know,

00:50:15:16 - 00:50:19:06

starting to get,

you know, more into land ownership,

00:50:19:06 - 00:50:24:08

spending my money on land

and improving land in my time.

00:50:24:08 - 00:50:27:08

It's literally

who I am, like, as a person.

00:50:27:14 - 00:50:28:14

But it didn't start that way.

00:50:28:14 - 00:50:32:01

So there's something

I would say something along those lines,

00:50:33:12 - 00:50:35:02

is how a lot of people go.

00:50:35:02 - 00:50:38:02

Definitely.

00:50:38:10 - 00:50:39:07

Yeah, man.

00:50:39:07 - 00:50:40:14

What? What?

00:50:40:14 - 00:50:44:04

When in your have you been hunting

since you were a kid?

00:50:44:04 - 00:50:45:04

Like when you start hunting?

00:50:46:04 - 00:50:48:02

Yeah, it's like 12.

00:50:48:02 - 00:50:50:12

So I'm 38, so.

00:50:50:12 - 00:50:52:11

Quite a while.

00:50:52:11 - 00:50:53:16

Yeah. Yeah.

00:50:53:16 - 00:50:54:20

4 or 5 years ago.

00:50:54:20 - 00:50:57:14

Yeah, man.

00:50:57:14 - 00:50:58:09

Oh, wow.

00:50:58:09 - 00:51:00:18

Thanks, man.

00:51:00:18 - 00:51:02:02

No, Ken's younger than you.

00:51:02:02 - 00:51:02:09

I think.

00:51:02:09 - 00:51:04:11

Technically,

I'm just going based on, like,

00:51:04:11 - 00:51:07:11

I can hear his knees crack and stuff

when he stands.

00:51:07:17 - 00:51:08:23

I don't know, whatever.

00:51:08:23 - 00:51:11:18

I'm in way better health than Nicholas.

00:51:11:18 - 00:51:13:09

Got you jealous of that.

00:51:13:09 - 00:51:14:22

So get.

00:51:14:22 - 00:51:15:21

Get what?

00:51:15:21 - 00:51:16:06

They were

00:51:16:06 - 00:51:19:11

where Howard weeds me, him and Riley,

and he all of a sudden remember something.

00:51:19:11 - 00:51:21:20

Guys, on come out of this strike.

00:51:21:20 - 00:51:24:03

Cholesterol went down.

00:51:24:03 - 00:51:26:02

I was at the doctor's office,

my cholesterol went down,

00:51:26:02 - 00:51:28:19

and I was like, man,

that's so exciting for you, Kent.

00:51:28:19 - 00:51:30:22

Well, he hasn't stopped saying that.

00:51:30:22 - 00:51:32:06

He just on bad.

00:51:32:06 - 00:51:35:07

Yeah, man, they call me old every day. But

00:51:37:05 - 00:51:38:11

health wise, I'm.

00:51:38:11 - 00:51:40:08

Years younger than these. Guys.

00:51:40:08 - 00:51:41:10

We'll be making fun of them.

00:51:41:10 - 00:51:44:16

And he'll be like, don't worry, Kent,

your cholesterol went down.

00:51:44:16 - 00:51:45:19

He's like saying it himself.

00:51:45:19 - 00:51:47:18

Like he's trying to encourage it.

00:51:47:18 - 00:51:50:11

So that's amazing.

00:51:50:11 - 00:51:51:11

I. Triglycerides are.

00:51:51:11 - 00:51:53:05

Down.

00:51:53:05 - 00:51:55:08

So I'm curious.

00:51:55:08 - 00:51:55:22

That's really.

00:51:55:22 - 00:51:57:11

Yeah. You gotta be

gotta be tracking those.

00:51:57:11 - 00:52:00:12

Look guys, everyone out there,

if you're over the age of 30,

00:52:00:12 - 00:52:02:13

you got to be going to your yearly doctor

appointment.

00:52:02:13 - 00:52:05:13

I'm not quite there yet.

00:52:05:13 - 00:52:08:13

Okay, so you're hunting from 12.

00:52:08:16 - 00:52:13:15

When did you have the crazy idea of, like,

you know what?

00:52:14:02 - 00:52:17:08

I'm going to start one of the first

whitetail hunting podcasts.

00:52:19:02 - 00:52:20:03

Yeah. Great question.

00:52:20:03 - 00:52:25:20

So that was probably back in 2016,

I'd say so.

00:52:25:20 - 00:52:27:20

Fresh out of college.

00:52:27:20 - 00:52:32:05

In the, in the,

you know, corporate world driving commute,

00:52:32:05 - 00:52:36:04

doing all that fun

stuff and, got really into,

00:52:37:05 - 00:52:38:18

the DMA, the

00:52:38:18 - 00:52:41:23

what used to be when I was NDA,

they had a forum back

00:52:41:23 - 00:52:44:23

then, you know, before Facebook on it,

the forums were popular.

00:52:45:22 - 00:52:50:00

And there was a,

their forum was extremely knowledgeable.

00:52:50:00 - 00:52:54:07

I mean, guys like us three on there

just highlighting their farms

00:52:54:07 - 00:52:55:16

and their projects.

00:52:55:16 - 00:52:58:11

It was, you know, the very niche part

00:52:58:11 - 00:53:01:11

of of the hunters that were on there.

00:53:01:15 - 00:53:05:11

And I just got enthralled with following

along with people's forums.

00:53:05:15 - 00:53:07:18

They post a project about their

00:53:07:18 - 00:53:10:03

their 80 acres, what it looks like,

and then you can follow it

00:53:10:03 - 00:53:12:02

through the years

and all the projects they've done

00:53:12:02 - 00:53:15:02

and the cabin they build in the family,

they brought out everything. Wow.

00:53:15:15 - 00:53:20:05

So I just liked doing that,

and I wanted to get my own piece someday

00:53:20:05 - 00:53:23:03

so I could do that. Nobody in my family

ever owned any, any land.

00:53:23:03 - 00:53:26:07

So I had this urge

that I wanted to do that.

00:53:26:07 - 00:53:29:05

And then, yeah,

I wanted to learn more about it.

00:53:29:05 - 00:53:32:19

So you can read and

read and read all day long.

00:53:33:18 - 00:53:36:02

But I

was I liked listening to podcasts, too.

00:53:36:02 - 00:53:39:02

So I'm like, you know what? Maybe I can,

00:53:39:03 - 00:53:43:06

you know, record some of these

because my memory's not 1,000%.

00:53:43:06 - 00:53:44:23

So I can remember and go back

00:53:44:23 - 00:53:47:23

and have this stuff versus reading it

and maybe forgetting some of it.

00:53:48:20 - 00:53:51:05

So that's kind of how that idea

got started.

00:53:51:05 - 00:53:55:04

I was a big wired to hunt listener, as you

know, I'm sure a lot of people were.

00:53:56:02 - 00:53:58:01

So Mark inspired me there.

00:53:58:01 - 00:54:00:06

And I just thought, you know,

I know what he was talking about.

00:54:00:06 - 00:54:02:00

The habitat things.

00:54:02:00 - 00:54:02:08

Yeah.

00:54:02:08 - 00:54:05:13

So I owned habitat podcasts.com for like

00:54:06:04 - 00:54:09:02

a year and a half

before I even did anything with it.

00:54:09:02 - 00:54:09:20

Oh, nice.

00:54:09:20 - 00:54:12:19

Which was, Well, yeah.

00:54:12:19 - 00:54:16:08

But I wish I would have fired off

another year earlier into this.

00:54:16:08 - 00:54:17:23

Into this space. Right.

00:54:17:23 - 00:54:22:20

Without saturated, it gets now one year

back then would have been monumental.

00:54:23:05 - 00:54:24:07

But, yeah.

00:54:24:07 - 00:54:29:08

So I just kind of this, this, this idea

and then it got some traction and,

00:54:30:09 - 00:54:31:19

Shoot, man, haven't stopped since.

00:54:31:19 - 00:54:33:08

I think we're

00:54:33:08 - 00:54:36:12

over seven years, 340 something episodes.

00:54:36:12 - 00:54:36:16

Like.

00:54:36:16 - 00:54:37:20

How much time is that?

00:54:37:20 - 00:54:40:14

You know, it's so much time. Yeah.

00:54:40:14 - 00:54:41:08

Yeah.

00:54:41:08 - 00:54:43:16

It becomes becomes part of your life.

00:54:43:16 - 00:54:44:18

Really?

00:54:44:18 - 00:54:46:11

Are you guys know you guys are podcasters?

00:54:46:11 - 00:54:48:07

You get it?

00:54:48:07 - 00:54:48:10

Yeah.

00:54:48:10 - 00:54:51:05

And you know, when you're,

00:54:51:05 - 00:54:54:04

when you were doing it

when you first started,

00:54:54:04 - 00:54:57:04

is there anything you would change?

00:54:58:08 - 00:55:00:06

Oh, see,

00:55:00:06 - 00:55:00:17

I don't know.

00:55:00:17 - 00:55:03:11

I think every everybody is

00:55:03:11 - 00:55:06:12

everybody's past kind of kind of writes

the story

00:55:06:12 - 00:55:09:12

for how you get to where you are. But,

00:55:10:09 - 00:55:11:16

no, not exactly.

00:55:11:16 - 00:55:14:16

I mean, I guess the journal journalism

side,

00:55:14:16 - 00:55:17:16

the skills and or the,

00:55:17:18 - 00:55:18:18

you know, the knowledge.

00:55:18:18 - 00:55:21:07

You know, I always wish

you had more better of that. But,

00:55:22:06 - 00:55:24:02

you know, I wouldn't be.

00:55:24:02 - 00:55:27:18

You know, where I am now if I didn't start

and keep keep chugging along.

00:55:27:18 - 00:55:30:22

So I guess I wouldn't really change

too much of it.

00:55:32:07 - 00:55:35:07

You ever you ever go back and listen

to some of those first episodes?

00:55:36:07 - 00:55:38:04

No. No.

00:55:38:04 - 00:55:41:10

Oh, wait. Do

I want to. Delete them so bad?

00:55:41:10 - 00:55:43:14

But Jake Hofer was like,

you can't delete those.

00:55:43:14 - 00:55:44:23

They're part of your story and was.

00:55:44:23 - 00:55:48:20

Like, oh, they're so terrible,

but they're so good.

00:55:48:20 - 00:55:49:15

Good podcast.

00:55:49:15 - 00:55:52:08

But there's I know.

Someone's got to go back and listen.

00:55:52:08 - 00:55:54:03

Well, here's

something Jared could probably relate to.

00:55:54:03 - 00:55:59:09

And I mean, when you're a new podcaster,

you aren't as good of a question asker.

00:55:59:09 - 00:55:59:20

You know, you

00:55:59:20 - 00:56:01:18

like you get you get better

at that and better

00:56:01:18 - 00:56:04:19

at having good conversation

on the show and stuff like that.

00:56:04:19 - 00:56:08:04

But you still can have

some pretty amazing guests even in those

00:56:08:04 - 00:56:12:21

first few podcasts,

that, that, that alone, you know,

00:56:13:18 - 00:56:15:09

the content that you get from there,

00:56:15:09 - 00:56:18:07

the insight you get from there

just is so valuable.

00:56:18:07 - 00:56:21:14

Which brings me to something

that I really wanted to ask you about.

00:56:21:14 - 00:56:24:06

And maybe you don't have a great

answer for this. Jared, but,

00:56:26:07 - 00:56:29:07

The. The,

00:56:29:08 - 00:56:34:02

like practical application stuff, you've,

you've had to just glean so much there.

00:56:34:02 - 00:56:36:08

300 and what what was it, 360.

00:56:36:08 - 00:56:38:11

Some episode 70. Some episodes.

00:56:38:11 - 00:56:41:11

I mean, you've

you've talked with so many experts.

00:56:41:11 - 00:56:44:15

What I really want to know about

and this would help us here at Hoxie,

00:56:44:15 - 00:56:46:12

even possibly.

00:56:46:12 - 00:56:49:21

You know,

herbicide is a big part of doing,

00:56:50:22 - 00:56:52:15

habitat management work.

00:56:52:15 - 00:56:54:01

And I know if that is,

00:56:54:01 - 00:56:56:23

there's probably even regular podcast

listeners that right now

00:56:56:23 - 00:56:59:23

are getting a little annoyed at me

bringing it up because they,

00:56:59:23 - 00:57:02:23

they're anti any kind of pesticide.

00:57:03:08 - 00:57:05:01

And I can understand that point of view.

00:57:05:01 - 00:57:08:01

I don't I don't think that,

00:57:08:02 - 00:57:11:14

I, I don't think somebody is wrong

if they choose to go that path.

00:57:12:13 - 00:57:16:01

But I do think that there is, there is

00:57:18:12 - 00:57:21:12

a false understanding that,

00:57:22:05 - 00:57:24:16

all farms could be managed

00:57:24:16 - 00:57:31:22

with all exclusion of pesticides

and still have a lot of the things

00:57:31:22 - 00:57:36:17

that we want to have

or even deemed necessary for.

00:57:38:03 - 00:57:38:20

Society.

00:57:38:20 - 00:57:41:20

So to me, the

00:57:41:23 - 00:57:44:18

probably the most base level example of

00:57:44:18 - 00:57:48:18

this is no till farming,

no till farming means

00:57:49:20 - 00:57:52:19

you're going to have a lot of weed

pressure.

00:57:52:19 - 00:57:55:19

Tillage wasn't just, create a nice,

you know,

00:57:55:19 - 00:58:00:20

soft medium of soil for a good, easy

planting season.

00:58:01:07 - 00:58:02:13

That was definitely a part of it.

00:58:02:13 - 00:58:05:17

Or incorporating fertilizer

or things like that, that

00:58:05:23 - 00:58:08:17

it was used for breaking up compaction.

00:58:08:17 - 00:58:11:17

Part of it was weed management too.

00:58:11:17 - 00:58:13:14

No till cultivators.

00:58:13:14 - 00:58:17:03

We got a few old buffalo

no till cultivators

00:58:17:03 - 00:58:20:03

sitting out here at Hoxie that,

00:58:21:03 - 00:58:22:14

Carroll experimented with

00:58:22:14 - 00:58:26:15

and in his early days of growing

prairie plants in a no till fashion.

00:58:26:15 - 00:58:30:07

And the idea was you could run

that shank down the down the,

00:58:31:21 - 00:58:34:08

you know, in between the rows of your,

your,

00:58:34:08 - 00:58:37:11

production field

and take care of some of the weed pressure

00:58:38:00 - 00:58:41:10

and, and so herbicides

00:58:41:10 - 00:58:46:03

have, have developed in tandem with, the,

00:58:46:08 - 00:58:50:13

the very wide adoption of, of,

00:58:50:16 - 00:58:53:16

no till farming practices and,

00:58:56:07 - 00:59:00:15

so to have and again,

I don't really like kind of like,

00:59:00:15 - 00:59:02:15

I don't like the phrase

hunting is conservation.

00:59:02:15 - 00:59:05:10

I don't like it when,

00:59:05:10 - 00:59:08:10

corn and being farmers

say they're feeding the world.

00:59:09:00 - 00:59:11:03

Because I don't think that

that's fully accurate either.

00:59:11:03 - 00:59:14:03

I think it, it is in some degrees or,

00:59:14:05 - 00:59:17:05

you know, in certain ways it is, but but,

00:59:18:22 - 00:59:19:16

I should say to

00:59:19:16 - 00:59:23:05

a certain degree is true,

but not certainly not

00:59:23:14 - 00:59:26:14

in such a broad manner.

00:59:27:12 - 00:59:28:08

But it's like the fat

00:59:28:08 - 00:59:31:10

guys are gonna give me kids,

so these guys are going to give me.

00:59:31:10 - 00:59:34:02

Yeah, I got stuff. Well, well. It,

00:59:35:23 - 00:59:36:12

I won't say it.

00:59:36:12 - 00:59:38:02

Look further and say there.

00:59:38:02 - 00:59:41:02

That we would get chance.

00:59:41:17 - 00:59:44:11

But, the,

00:59:44:11 - 00:59:45:00

a lot of the.

00:59:45:00 - 00:59:47:11

Food that the world. And.

00:59:47:11 - 00:59:49:12

Again,

I don't even always like to call it food.

00:59:49:12 - 00:59:50:20

I like to call it calories.

00:59:50:20 - 00:59:54:03

A lot of the calories

that the world consumes

00:59:54:10 - 00:59:59:20

does come from large scale

industrial style agriculture.

01:00:00:07 - 01:00:02:23

And, if you want to have 8 billion

01:00:02:23 - 01:00:05:23

people, you gotta have enough calories

to support 8 billion people.

01:00:05:23 - 01:00:09:17

And so herbicides are a necessary part

to keep all these people that I think

01:00:09:17 - 01:00:13:03

we would all agree,

even the most ardent anti

01:00:13:04 - 01:00:16:04

pesticide person would say,

01:00:16:05 - 01:00:18:18

you know, I don't really want to,

you know, eliminate

01:00:18:18 - 01:00:20:10

a certain percentage of the world's

01:00:20:10 - 01:00:23:14

population to make it work

that we don't need to grow that much food.

01:00:23:14 - 01:00:24:03

That would be,

01:00:25:04 - 01:00:25:15

I don't know,

01:00:25:15 - 01:00:28:17

what do they call it, like,

genocidal or something like that?

01:00:29:13 - 01:00:32:08

That that would be terrible, right.

01:00:32:08 - 01:00:35:08

So the, like,

01:00:35:13 - 01:00:37:21

just working through the logic here,

01:00:37:21 - 01:00:41:04

I think that there is a place

for pesticide use,

01:00:41:15 - 01:00:44:22

but it needs to be responsible

and needs to be, calculated,

01:00:44:22 - 01:00:47:22

and it needs to be minimized

where it can be.

01:00:48:18 - 01:00:52:17

That being said,

leaving the food side of it and going more

01:00:52:17 - 01:00:56:16

to like the habitat management,

like what Jared, you do and,

01:00:57:04 - 01:01:00:04

prairie establishment, like all of us do.

01:01:01:15 - 01:01:03:14

In places like the Midwest,

01:01:03:14 - 01:01:06:14

where we have such fertile soils

01:01:07:05 - 01:01:09:22

and so many centuries

01:01:09:22 - 01:01:14:08

of invasive of plants that have,

01:01:15:04 - 01:01:17:22

taken hold, here

01:01:17:22 - 01:01:21:09

in and, you know, in an invasive

01:01:21:09 - 01:01:25:03

way, want to establish themselves

in a monoculture fashion.

01:01:26:13 - 01:01:28:13

Herbicide is a critically important

01:01:28:13 - 01:01:31:13

tool to try and regain the upper hand.

01:01:32:23 - 01:01:35:11

And so if you're listening to this, don't

just tune this out.

01:01:35:11 - 01:01:38:20

Listen to what you know,

what we worked through here,

01:01:39:16 - 01:01:42:16

but have you come across

01:01:42:19 - 01:01:44:18

any herbicides

01:01:44:18 - 01:01:48:07

that you have found particularly helpful

in maybe

01:01:48:07 - 01:01:51:07

preparing the way

for a new prairie planting,

01:01:51:12 - 01:01:55:03

or maybe encouraging that native

seed bank to come back without,

01:01:55:11 - 01:01:59:16

you know, by getting rid of the invasives

and not harming the the natives?

01:02:00:00 - 01:02:03:00

Do you have any off

the or like a regimen that you do?

01:02:03:00 - 01:02:06:00

That's kind of a go to thing

that you wouldn't mind sharing.

01:02:06:02 - 01:02:06:19

Yeah.

01:02:06:19 - 01:02:08:17

And great, great comments there.

01:02:08:17 - 01:02:11:17

Seeing this up, I, I would agree

01:02:13:00 - 01:02:16:01

I would not want to have to manage

01:02:17:01 - 01:02:19:07

all my property or any property with,

01:02:19:07 - 01:02:22:11

without the use of some herbicide.

01:02:23:11 - 01:02:26:09

Sure, it can be done,

but it's going to be an uphill battle.

01:02:26:09 - 01:02:27:16

It's tough, cool season.

01:02:27:16 - 01:02:29:10

Grasses are an enemy of mine.

01:02:29:10 - 01:02:33:05

So I like there's

there's three that I use.

01:02:33:05 - 01:02:36:05

When you were asking the question,

I was thinking about it.

01:02:36:17 - 01:02:39:11

And when I use herbicides, I use them

01:02:39:11 - 01:02:42:11

maybe twice a year.

01:02:43:08 - 01:02:44:23

But again, it depends

if you're treating invasives

01:02:44:23 - 01:02:47:01

or this and that, that can be spread out.

01:02:47:01 - 01:02:49:03

But Yeah.

01:02:49:03 - 01:02:52:11

So and giving a prairie or native grasses

establish

01:02:52:13 - 01:02:55:14

I'll use glyphosate in the fall.

01:02:56:21 - 01:03:00:04

On an area

after, you know, when it's cool season.

01:03:00:04 - 01:03:02:13

Time to kill the grasses and prep that.

01:03:02:13 - 01:03:02:16

Yeah.

01:03:02:16 - 01:03:06:11

Walk, walk us, walk us through the walk us

through the conditions there.

01:03:06:11 - 01:03:07:01

When? Sure.

01:03:07:01 - 01:03:08:13

When what are you looking for?

01:03:08:13 - 01:03:10:07

And like the weather forecast or what?

01:03:10:07 - 01:03:13:06

What are you looking for

on the ground? That kind of thing?

01:03:13:06 - 01:03:17:05

Yeah, I'd like to, if I'm going to say

plant some native grasses.

01:03:18:12 - 01:03:19:14

I like to wait till

01:03:19:14 - 01:03:22:19

like October, early October

and I'll spray,

01:03:23:19 - 01:03:29:13

glyphosate

to kill any cool season plants that are,

01:03:29:13 - 01:03:33:01

that are there that are going to be

the first to rise in the spring as well.

01:03:33:01 - 01:03:36:01

So that being said,

01:03:36:11 - 01:03:38:15

I'll wipe that out in the fall after the

01:03:38:15 - 01:03:43:16

the warm season stuff is is already dead

or dead or dying for the year.

01:03:44:12 - 01:03:47:22

Then that spring I'll use

if I don't frost seed

01:03:47:22 - 01:03:50:22

or even if I do frosty

the natives, I'll use

01:03:51:19 - 01:03:53:15

them as a pre-emergent.

01:03:53:15 - 01:03:57:16

Okay, try to get some of those cool season

grasses that are going to come up

01:03:57:16 - 01:04:01:05

and compete with my prairie style grasses.

01:04:02:03 - 01:04:04:22

Withhold them a little bit if you can.

01:04:04:22 - 01:04:07:11

And that's really that's really. Yeah.

01:04:07:11 - 01:04:11:18

I use platinum as well for grass treatment

among maybe

01:04:11:18 - 01:04:15:20

a clover stand or something like that,

if they get too overtaken with grasses.

01:04:16:21 - 01:04:17:16

Sure.

01:04:17:16 - 01:04:22:08

I just think

herbicides are a tool in your tool belt.

01:04:22:08 - 01:04:27:09

I know it's cliche, but it's it's

how I view it and I use them sparingly.

01:04:27:09 - 01:04:30:20

I do, I follow the label,

I use them maybe twice a year.

01:04:32:10 - 01:04:35:15

And I think it's a it's responsible

to don't.

01:04:35:17 - 01:04:37:00

More is not always better.

01:04:37:00 - 01:04:38:18

You don't need more.

01:04:38:18 - 01:04:39:07

Yeah.

01:04:39:07 - 01:04:41:19

And I think that if you just,

01:04:41:19 - 01:04:46:06

you don't have to go all no herbicide

and you don't have to go

01:04:46:06 - 01:04:49:06

to the full on where you just dump

and roundup everywhere.

01:04:49:09 - 01:04:51:14

I think there's definitely a safe,

01:04:51:14 - 01:04:54:20

happy medium to, to be effective

because the plants

01:04:54:20 - 01:04:57:20

that you guys are trying to establish

and then I'm trying to establish,

01:04:58:18 - 01:05:01:11

the, you know, the invasives

and the courses and stuff

01:05:01:11 - 01:05:04:17

are way more prolific and can

and can smoke that stuff right out.

01:05:04:17 - 01:05:09:01

So it's very necessary, in my opinion, when you, when establishing stuff like this.

01:05:10:07 - 01:05:10:14

Yeah.

01:05:10:14 - 01:05:10:19

Yeah.

01:05:10:19 - 01:05:14:00

You can, you can literally waste, seeding

01:05:14:05 - 01:05:17:05

if you don't have the right preparation

down.

01:05:17:10 - 01:05:21:12

And yeah, it's, it's neat to, to hear

what other people do.

01:05:21:12 - 01:05:23:07

And you've,

you've had some pretty good success

01:05:23:07 - 01:05:27:18

with that, with establishing your prairie

with that, that glyphosate and same gene.

01:05:28:16 - 01:05:30:17

Simson.

01:05:30:17 - 01:05:32:06

Regimen. Yes.

01:05:32:06 - 01:05:33:23

Yep, yep.

01:05:33:23 - 01:05:36:17

Well, even this year and

01:05:36:17 - 01:05:37:20

I'll go ahead.

01:05:37:20 - 01:05:40:15

What I was just going to ask,

when do you plant?

01:05:40:15 - 01:05:41:16

After the summer.

01:05:41:16 - 01:05:44:16

Because it's 1760 day

that you need to wait or.

01:05:46:09 - 01:05:48:15

You know, I did it this year

01:05:48:15 - 01:05:51:15

and I'm I'm always experimenting, too.

01:05:52:16 - 01:05:53:22

I mixed it this year.

01:05:53:22 - 01:05:57:19

I had I had a power line

that was worked up from an ice storm up

01:05:57:19 - 01:05:59:05

north to the crews were in there

01:05:59:05 - 01:06:03:03

doing new lines and stuff all spring,

and it was just bare dirt.

01:06:04:19 - 01:06:07:19

So what I did was I applied some scene

01:06:08:14 - 01:06:10:10

and then I, we just did a little bit

01:06:10:10 - 01:06:13:16

was to get something going,

I'll maybe work the ground.

01:06:13:16 - 01:06:17:02

And then I applied the

something right then and planted,

01:06:18:09 - 01:06:21:09

at the same time

I planted some, some switchgrass

01:06:21:14 - 01:06:25:06

and as this amazing effectiveness,

01:06:25:23 - 01:06:29:20

went away, the switchgrass germinated,

set roots and took off.

01:06:29:20 - 01:06:31:15

And this was Father's Day.

01:06:31:15 - 01:06:34:08

So we're talking early June.

01:06:34:08 - 01:06:36:10

And now right now, I have like, 6 to 8

01:06:36:10 - 01:06:39:10

inch tall switchgrass in that spot.

01:06:40:04 - 01:06:42:09

Not a lot of weed pressure resting.

01:06:42:09 - 01:06:45:13

But in the past, I've always

I frost seeded

01:06:46:06 - 01:06:50:01

and then I had the 70,

but I only had a certain amount of time.

01:06:50:01 - 01:06:53:05

I'm like, I'm going to try to plant this

in June and see what happens.

01:06:53:05 - 01:06:55:14

And, and, ended up

working out really well.

01:06:55:14 - 01:07:01:05

So the residual, I think, determines

how much you want to put in there as well.

01:07:01:13 - 01:07:05:18

I did like a lighter treatment, but, yeah,

you got to watch that residual nickel

01:07:05:20 - 01:07:08:21

as to how long that stays

active in the soil for, along with,

01:07:09:00 - 01:07:10:13

you know, any any herbicide, really.

01:07:12:05 - 01:07:14:04

And, and the other,

01:07:14:04 - 01:07:17:18

the other so that, you know, and then also

when you're doing a monoculture of just

01:07:17:18 - 01:07:20:18

switchgrass, you know,

that takes a lot of variables to.

01:07:20:20 - 01:07:23:06

So you do have to be careful,

you know, read your labels.

01:07:23:06 - 01:07:25:10

It's amazing

what all is included in those labels.

01:07:25:10 - 01:07:28:11

I mean, they break it down

by species of common weeds, but also,

01:07:29:03 - 01:07:31:18

maybe some things

that you would want to have in there.

01:07:31:18 - 01:07:36:00

A lot of times I found on labels and,

you know, just do your research

01:07:36:00 - 01:07:39:00

and make sure that it's

going to be compatible with your mix.

01:07:39:13 - 01:07:43:01

Nicholas and I are working on a theory

right now, so I'm not going to.

01:07:43:05 - 01:07:46:05

It has to do with native annual weeds.

01:07:46:17 - 01:07:49:21

But we're not going to

we're not going to reveal our theory,

01:07:50:01 - 01:07:53:15

until we get some,

expert, expert weigh in on it.

01:07:54:02 - 01:07:55:18

But I think it could help people,

01:07:56:23 - 01:07:59:09

you know, feel

better about their prairie establishment

01:07:59:09 - 01:08:03:09

and be more patient

with the ugly phase, and,

01:08:05:00 - 01:08:07:20

you know, have,

because that is part of it, too, you know,

01:08:07:20 - 01:08:12:05

those first few years and also have

maybe some better mowing practices that,

01:08:13:19 - 01:08:17:20

foster more diversity

coming from your seedling.

01:08:18:12 - 01:08:21:12

If it's if it's a prairie,

that is planted.

01:08:21:12 - 01:08:24:16

So, yeah, that's

that's all good insight there for sure.

01:08:27:12 - 01:08:28:08

Oh, sorry.

01:08:28:08 - 01:08:30:02

I, I was,

I was going to follow up on that.

01:08:30:02 - 01:08:31:14

What what is.

01:08:31:14 - 01:08:34:06

And maybe you haven't really

come across this problem yet, Jared.

01:08:34:06 - 01:08:39:14

But if you do have a prairie that comes up

and you're just seeing that man,

01:08:39:21 - 01:08:43:17

I thought I had a good, you know,

I thought I got things prepared well,

01:08:44:01 - 01:08:48:09

but man, it's really getting dominated

by a handful of different weed species.

01:08:49:06 - 01:08:51:11

Is there anything that that is like your

01:08:51:11 - 01:08:55:06

go to method for, you know,

like a really spotty, weedy prairie?

01:08:56:14 - 01:08:58:04

Well, I'd say,

01:08:58:04 - 01:09:01:04

mowing would work for something like that.

01:09:01:11 - 01:09:02:10

Depending.

01:09:02:10 - 01:09:05:10

And that's what usually how I do

some of the switchgrass stuff.

01:09:05:17 - 01:09:06:13

A good mow.

01:09:06:13 - 01:09:10:13

We'll take out a lot of some of the,

you know, herbaceous stuff,

01:09:10:13 - 01:09:13:13

this little stuff like that

you don't really want in there.

01:09:13:21 - 01:09:15:17

You guys know your, your prairie

01:09:15:17 - 01:09:18:20

establishments, to control

some of the weeds like that.

01:09:18:20 - 01:09:21:13

To first year and a half is usually.

01:09:21:13 - 01:09:21:22

Yeah.

01:09:21:22 - 01:09:22:23

Yep, yep.

01:09:22:23 - 01:09:25:23

So, like, the first year we keep it mowed.

01:09:26:08 - 01:09:28:19

And then the second year

that always taught us

01:09:28:19 - 01:09:31:00

keep it mowed until the 4th of July.

01:09:31:00 - 01:09:33:22

And then, from there, you should,

01:09:33:22 - 01:09:38:05

get your first kind of prairie grass

stand that second year.

01:09:38:05 - 01:09:39:16

And then the next year, the Forbes

01:09:39:16 - 01:09:42:16

kind of do their thing as well

in that third year.

01:09:42:18 - 01:09:45:18

But three years is a lot to, to,

01:09:46:01 - 01:09:49:17

on the front end when someone calls

and they say, hey, I want to spend $2,000.

01:09:49:17 - 01:09:52:06

And I say, awesome,

you're going to see it in three years.

01:09:52:06 - 01:09:54:02

You know, that that's a tough sell. But,

01:09:55:14 - 01:09:56:19

but, you know, people think, yeah.

01:09:56:19 - 01:09:59:01

If you do. The patience here.

01:09:59:01 - 01:10:02:03

And if you do the right,

if you do the the work the right way,

01:10:02:03 - 01:10:05:16

I mean, the payoff is just so huge

and long lasting.

01:10:05:16 - 01:10:09:11

You know, it's a long term

it's a long term, payout.

01:10:09:11 - 01:10:10:19

So yeah,

01:10:10:19 - 01:10:14:21

I think, I think it's all important stuff

that helps lower the barrier to people

01:10:14:21 - 01:10:18:07

getting involved with with, using Prairie

as part of their habitat plans.

01:10:18:20 - 01:10:19:08

All right.

01:10:19:08 - 01:10:22:06

But so we'll have to go here

in a little bit, Jared.

01:10:22:06 - 01:10:23:20

But, a couple things.

01:10:23:20 - 01:10:27:20

First, I want to go through a little bit

of a lightning round to help me understand

01:10:27:20 - 01:10:29:06

deer hunting better.

01:10:29:06 - 01:10:30:23

And then,

01:10:30:23 - 01:10:33:23

we can move on from there, but you ready?

01:10:34:08 - 01:10:35:02

You get a pic?

01:10:35:02 - 01:10:37:22

Yeah, let's do it. To do one of the.

01:10:37:22 - 01:10:41:10

You get to pick

one of the two to do really, really well.

01:10:41:14 - 01:10:41:23

Okay.

01:10:44:23 - 01:10:48:02

Betting or, food plot.

01:10:51:03 - 01:10:52:23

Betting.

01:10:52:23 - 01:10:53:14

Okay.

01:10:53:14 - 01:10:56:14

Betting or water source?

01:10:58:00 - 01:11:01:00

Betting.

01:11:03:05 - 01:11:03:21

Okay.

01:11:03:21 - 01:11:06:21

Betting or south facing slope.

01:11:08:17 - 01:11:11:13

One in the same betting.

01:11:11:13 - 01:11:12:20

Okay.

01:11:12:20 - 01:11:15:20

Betting on south for,

01:11:18:08 - 01:11:19:10

Yeah, yeah.

01:11:19:10 - 01:11:20:14

What?

01:11:20:14 - 01:11:25:03

Betting or, you talk a lot about, cover.

01:11:25:07 - 01:11:27:11

And to me, they seem different.

01:11:27:11 - 01:11:30:11

But maybe you're about to tell me

they're the same.

01:11:31:19 - 01:11:32:08

Exactly.

01:11:32:08 - 01:11:35:03

I want to expound on what I mean

by betting.

01:11:35:03 - 01:11:39:10

At some point in the lightning round,

betting can be food and cover.

01:11:39:13 - 01:11:42:22

So that's why it to me, it it wins.

01:11:43:22 - 01:11:45:22

It's it's the best part.

01:11:45:22 - 01:11:49:06

And also with our,

with our crazy deer here in Michigan,

01:11:49:23 - 01:11:54:17

we have a lot of hunting pressure,

so cover works well here to, to foster

01:11:55:11 - 01:11:58:11

the stuff that I'm looking for.

01:12:00:23 - 01:12:02:03

Awesome.

01:12:02:03 - 01:12:04:04

Yeah, I think that I think that,

01:12:06:17 - 01:12:09:17

you know, when you.

01:12:09:19 - 01:12:13:03

Well, I think kind of playing off of that,

Jared,

01:12:14:00 - 01:12:17:22

the the thing that is, is a hard

01:12:17:22 - 01:12:20:22

one for me to answer is the amount of,

01:12:22:09 - 01:12:26:14

like, grassland type habitat cover

01:12:27:00 - 01:12:32:02

versus timber timbered cover, you know,

and what's what's the,

01:12:32:19 - 01:12:36:05

what's the,

you know, ratio you want on, on a farm.

01:12:36:23 - 01:12:39:11

But I think we can agree that

01:12:39:11 - 01:12:42:11

if you have no trees,

01:12:43:14 - 01:12:46:06

you just really it's really hard

01:12:46:06 - 01:12:49:06

to come across

any kind of concentration of deer.

01:12:50:15 - 01:12:52:22

And so in Michigan,

01:12:52:22 - 01:12:56:01

you guys have way more force at acres

than what we have here.

01:12:56:01 - 01:12:59:03

And it's in Iowa

throughout much of the state.

01:13:00:12 - 01:13:02:22

What's, I mean, if you guys,

01:13:02:22 - 01:13:06:02

I gotta think that if you guys just left a

01:13:06:12 - 01:13:10:14

if you had a, you know,

let's say you bought, like, a, a,

01:13:11:15 - 01:13:14:22

40 acre production

field, and if you just walked away

01:13:14:22 - 01:13:17:23

from that for 25 years,

it would be a forced.

01:13:19:08 - 01:13:22:00

Is is the way I can understand it?

01:13:22:00 - 01:13:25:00

So, so, I guess to kind of conclude

01:13:25:00 - 01:13:28:00

our lightning round here, what would be,

01:13:29:03 - 01:13:32:23

what would be the right ratio you're

shooting for with that betting cover?

01:13:33:09 - 01:13:35:05

How much of it

would you want wooded versus

01:13:35:05 - 01:13:38:05

how much would you want in, grassland?

01:13:38:18 - 01:13:39:01

Yeah.

01:13:39:01 - 01:13:44:07

I don't know if I have an exact

percentage on that is more of.

01:13:44:07 - 01:13:47:02

I want both and I want diversity.

01:13:47:02 - 01:13:49:21

I think that if you have an open field,

01:13:49:21 - 01:13:53:07

like one of my clients

who just worked with, he is all open.

01:13:53:18 - 01:13:56:11

We planted a native grass mix there.

01:13:56:11 - 01:13:59:15

We burned it, planted it like

that's going to be the prescription there.

01:13:59:15 - 01:14:00:18

I'm not going to

01:14:00:18 - 01:14:05:04

I'm not going to go plant, you know,

a thousand oak trees and wait 20 years.

01:14:05:04 - 01:14:08:17

What I can do a prairie,

and get my goals achieved there.

01:14:08:17 - 01:14:12:14

So I think it depends on what you're

dealing with if you have an open farm

01:14:12:14 - 01:14:14:06

or a wooded farm. But,

01:14:15:15 - 01:14:17:06

if you're all wooded,

01:14:17:06 - 01:14:20:19

you know, it's hard

to get a prairie established in the woods.

01:14:20:19 - 01:14:23:20

So you have to kind of deal

with what you're working with.

01:14:23:20 - 01:14:27:04

If I could,

if I could perfectly set it up,

01:14:28:00 - 01:14:32:01

I think 5050 of of prairie and woods,

01:14:32:21 - 01:14:36:20

thinking of this farm in Iowa that I'm in

hunt this fall is the most gorgeous farm,

01:14:37:07 - 01:14:40:17

and it's literally

what it draws with Prairie,

01:14:41:15 - 01:14:44:15

as you know, sirup contract throughout,

throughout there.

01:14:44:15 - 01:14:47:15

And they don't even even worry

about food plots.

01:14:47:20 - 01:14:48:09

Maybe a little.

01:14:48:09 - 01:14:53:05

My little plot here and there,

but it's I would probably do like a 5050.

01:14:53:05 - 01:14:56:10

But what's more important to me

is diversity on the parcel

01:14:57:01 - 01:14:59:18

without having half the woods

and the prairie, if you can.

01:15:01:03 - 01:15:01:23

Yeah.

01:15:01:23 - 01:15:05:03

So is that better than what

I was talking about with with Nick is,

01:15:05:23 - 01:15:08:23

you know, early successional habitat,

anything,

01:15:08:23 - 01:15:12:11

you know, five foot and below

is what matters to the critters, right?

01:15:12:11 - 01:15:14:11

So, for the most part.

01:15:14:11 - 01:15:17:08

So if we can get that, you know, like,

01:15:17:08 - 01:15:20:08

I'm trying to make an oak savanna

in my woods right now.

01:15:22:01 - 01:15:22:20

That's that's some.

01:15:22:20 - 01:15:25:11

That's what I'm looking for.

That's what I like.

01:15:25:11 - 01:15:27:02

Right? Yeah. That's great.

01:15:27:02 - 01:15:28:16

I like that answer.

01:15:28:16 - 01:15:29:05

Okay.

01:15:29:05 - 01:15:32:05

Nicholas, you want to wrap this one up?

01:15:33:01 - 01:15:33:17

Yeah.

01:15:33:17 - 01:15:34:19

I definitely can.

01:15:34:19 - 01:15:37:03

Well, my internet's pooping on me.

01:15:37:03 - 01:15:38:08

Guys, I'm so sorry.

01:15:38:08 - 01:15:41:14

I, it'll just force me to have to go back

and listen to it,

01:15:41:14 - 01:15:44:14

and and that'll be good for me. But,

Jared,

01:15:45:07 - 01:15:48:04

you obviously carry a ton of knowledge.

01:15:48:04 - 01:15:52:11

I mean, an authority on on habitat

for, for whitetail deer.

01:15:54:04 - 01:15:57:12

I'm curious if people are like,

I need to know more about this guy.

01:15:57:12 - 01:15:59:20

Where can they find you?

01:15:59:20 - 01:16:00:07

Yeah. Thank you.

01:16:00:07 - 01:16:03:00

Nicholas, I appreciate the kind words.

01:16:03:00 - 01:16:06:07

Habitat podcast is the podcast,

so I got the kids running around

01:16:06:07 - 01:16:08:02

like crazy in here.

01:16:08:02 - 01:16:10:15

The. Habitat podcast and. All that,

I guess.

01:16:10:15 - 01:16:13:13

Yeah, it's it's, it's a good time.

01:16:13:13 - 01:16:16:06

We've interviewed, you know, hundreds

01:16:16:06 - 01:16:20:06

of folks on there,

and just I, I'm passionate about it.

01:16:20:06 - 01:16:24:11

I love applying everybody's ideas.

01:16:24:11 - 01:16:26:07

You're talking to you guys here today,

01:16:26:07 - 01:16:31:00

even, to kind of my my portrait,

if you will.

01:16:31:00 - 01:16:34:01

So the habitat podcast, we talk about

just making your land better

01:16:34:01 - 01:16:35:19

for wildlife habitat.

01:16:35:19 - 01:16:39:09

Naturally hunting

you know, improves with that.

01:16:39:19 - 01:16:42:19

So habitat podcast.com.

01:16:43:11 - 01:16:44:06

Yeah.

01:16:44:06 - 01:16:46:03

That's awesome.

01:16:46:03 - 01:16:50:07

Well, you guys just as strong of a mind

as Jared has.

01:16:50:19 - 01:16:53:20

We know that conservation

can only move forward

01:16:53:20 - 01:16:57:04

and can only happen one mind at a time.