Nicolas Lirio (00:00.275) I don't I don't know if anybody who has the character to raise more than six kids pers you know, really well. they're out there, I'm sure. Kent Boucher (00:05.16) Yeah. Well, there's a sad thing that th this cannot go on the the episode, but there is a sad thing I notice sometimes on families with like a a boatload of kids is you see the signs of individual neglect. Not intentional neglect, but just mom and dad are too busy to give everybody enough time. You know what I mean? Like like whether it's a kid that's eight years old and he doesn't know how read yet, or a kid who's like complaining that their house is too busy or whatever. Nicolas Lirio (00:42.155) I think that's just a sign of the school district that y you were teaching in. Kent Boucher (00:45.978) No, it's not because every one of those families is home schooled, Nick. Every f there in the history of the world there's not been a a family of ten plus kids that went to public school. Nicolas Lirio (00:49.867) Well yeah, that's that's true. Travis (00:50.19) So. Nicolas Lirio (00:57.193) You know who's a hero? Jonathan Edwards' wife. He had like thirteen kids, and they all turned out like wonderful human beings. They're the most represented family in American history for like senators, lawyers, doctors, like high class jobs. And he was only home he got home for dinner every day. He would eat dinner with them. Then he would spend one hour with them, like all the kids together every day, and then he would go to his study. Kent Boucher (01:13.768) Wow. Nicolas Lirio (01:26.249) And that was all the time that and his wife just took care of all the kids. It's unbelievable to me. Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:29.556) Wow. Yeah, probably were still neglected. Nicolas Lirio (01:34.411) Yeah. All right. Yeah, they're they're all Travis (01:36.086) at a certain point. Kent Boucher (01:36.884) They had to get typhoid to get a attention from their parents. Nicolas Lirio (01:40.108) They all they all became lawyers and doctors like dad, do you see me now? all right, Travis. Kent, with his life where you see him at now, you can tell he wasn't neglected. Anyway, opposite of opposite neglect. all right, Travis, whenever you're ready, we'll have you do your intro. Name. Travis (01:41.07) Thank Kent Boucher (01:44.693) Yeah, I think all you're doing is proving my point by saying they all grew up to be successful. Daddy problems, man. I'm just kidding. Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (02:08.245) Title and this is the Prairie Farm Podcast. Travis (02:10.734) Okay, cool. I'm Travis Hall, Associate Editor, Field and Stream Magazine, and this is the Prairie Farm Podcast. Kent Boucher (02:19.486) Bingo. Good job. Travis (02:20.898) That's sweet. Nicolas Lirio (02:21.301) Great. All right, Kent, whenever you're ready. Kent Boucher (02:25.512) Travis, I grew up in an outdoorsman's house, but I did not hunt until I was an adult. so we were fishermen, did a lot of camping, did a lot of backpacking. We even would do like canoeing and portaging up in the boundary water area. and so, you know, I I would have like, you know, in in like Let's say middle school, you do an about me on the first day of school or something like that. A little little assignment to introduce yourself to the class. One of the things I probably would have put on there is I like the outdoors or my family does a lot of stuff in the outdoors. And one of the things that I credit with fostering that inside of me is first of all. Travis (03:11.182) Mm-hmm. Kent Boucher (03:23.74) And I I'm not sure do you mind if I ask how old you are, Travis? Travis (03:27.586) No, not at all. I am 38 going on 39. Kent Boucher (03:31.305) Man, we are very close in age. I turned thirty seven here pretty soon. My sister, my big sister turns thirty-nine tomorrow. but but so you can you can definitely relate to this. I would say our childhood was probably the last the last bit of like the big magazine era where where I say that carefully 'cause you work for a magazine. Travis (03:35.224) Okay. Travis (03:38.795) Okay. Nicolas Lirio (03:38.88) Wow. Kent Boucher (04:01.358) but but so much of the magazine world now is online and and I mean whether it's field and stream, outdoor life, trying to think of an out outside magazine, backpacker magazine. T I mean tens of thousands of articles online for for maybe even maybe even hundreds of thousands of articles between all of those entities together. Travis (04:04.974) Mm-hmm. Kent Boucher (04:30.206) But when we were kids, that really wasn't I mean, the internet was around, but most people still consumed their written y you know, content in printed form. You know, my dad we always got the newspaper when I was a kid, and we would we would also get we'd get Field and Stream, Outdoor Life, Backpacker magazine, for years. And I just remember loving to going through Field and Stream. All of but but I I I definitely remember Field and Stream always had such beautiful artwork. there was this there's this one ad that was ran in there that I remember forever. Because for I think it's just because it was so logical to me. And I'm I like to I like to wrestle through logical problems, I guess. It's Nick Nicholas and I get into big fights over our logical problem solving that we do on the road to podcasts. But but one of was a picture of a bird dog and it w I'm sure it was advertising like some kind of tailgate veterinarian treatment thing or maybe even like a first aid kit for your bird dog or whatever. But the the it just had like in big bold letters Travis (05:52.162) Mm-hmm. Kent Boucher (05:55.825) Imagine running through here naked and it like showed this like thorn bush or whatever. And the point's like, Yeah, you know what, that's a good point. We should give dogs more credit, you know? And so I mean I just remember reading that from such an early age and it really shaped me as an outdoorsman. And even now, you know, when I when I pick up a copy of Field and Stream or or other outdoor magazines, and I do a little writing myself for outdoor for an outdoor magazine. Nicolas Lirio (06:01.092) Ha ha Nicolas Lirio (06:05.406) Ha ha ha. Kent Boucher (06:25.644) they're they just can't fully be replaced with what's online or what's on social media, having the tangible product in your hand. And I think that that helped shape me in a major way, as far as an outdoorsman goes. And so it's I I'm pretty tickled to be talking with one of their editors today. Here we have Travis Hall, as you heard in the introduction. But did you grow up reading all those magazines too when you were a kid, I'm guessing. Travis (06:56.79) I did, man. Yeah. Field and Stream in particular had a big impact on me growing up as well. And I just remember like toting a copy of that around in high school, just kind of being obsessed with hunting and fishing. And when you couldn't be out doing it, the next best thing was to be thumbing through one of those magazines. And yeah, it's an amazing legacy that Field and Stream had, Outdoor Life and all these other publications. Nicolas Lirio (07:03.337) Hmm. Kent Boucher (07:18.504) Yeah. Travis (07:26.898) have, and like the impact, like you said, anytime I talked to somebody about field and stream, you know, if they're of a certain age, and they, hunt and fish or they spend time outdoors, they have those memories that they connect with that, that print product. So it's been awesome to see it come back. Now we have it back in print and, it's, it's, you know, it's a bigger, larger format, book than it was back in the day, but. Kent Boucher (07:43.442) Mm-hmm. Kent Boucher (07:49.426) Yeah. Travis (07:56.174) It's great and all that artwork that we feature some of the original artwork from magazines dating back to like the 50s and 40s and even before that. And we even have a lot of our covers these days or recreations of some of those original, that original artwork. So yeah, it's pretty cool to see that back in print. Kent Boucher (08:14.974) That's awesome. Nicolas Lirio (08:18.387) Man, that's that's the well okay, so this is nothing to do with field and stream quality as a magazine, but like is it hard having a magazine in an era that doesn't appreciate them? You know what I mean? Like w who who's who's purchasing them? You know? And I've read a bunch of articles out of field high quality content. I'm just Kent Boucher (08:19.454) Yeah, I I love that. What were we gonna say, Nick? Nicolas Lirio (08:45.873) No, that I'm not talking about what you guys are doing. I'm just the physical paper of of people buying magazines. Travis (08:52.108) Yeah, I mean, that's a good question. You know, we're a subscription-based model, and it's doing good since we brought it back. I think a lot of the people are, you know, folks like Nick that had that connection to the magazine earlier in their life, and then were disappointed to see it go away and only be a digital format. And I think they're just kind of... little bit of a renaissance going on when it comes to print publications because like you were saying Nick there's there's no replacing that that tangible product being in your hand and like it can be the greatest narrative of all time but reading it on a computer screen just doesn't hit the same way as it does when you've got it in your hands Kent Boucher (09:39.657) Yeah, I I something that I I miss. You ever hear the phrase millennial misery? or millennial no, that's a that's a that's a Instagram account. Millennial what is it? Grief. Millennial grief. It's where you in a way, millennials were yeah. millennials were just like with the magazine era where that was your main way to get written information. Nicolas Lirio (09:59.948) Grieve how old you are. Kent Boucher (10:09.132) that or the newspaper print was just the main way. Books, you know, people go to the library to do their research. one of the things that I miss that was a reality of that era was niche interests. You to find information on them was very, very difficult. And in many cases barely existed. So I think a c a classic example of this in the outdoor space would be shed hunting. if you're into shed hunting, there's definitely a lot of people that shed hunted. Very few people were writing on it. And you would have to like all of a sudden somebody would write like this little blurb in a newspaper article. You know, this this year, the the you know, remember outdoor news? I think they're still around outdoor news Travis (10:43.032) Okay. Kent Boucher (11:05.726) Where they would it it'd be very regional, you know, like Iowa and Illinois would share a region or or they'd even break it up more like west central Illinois and eastern Iowa or something like that. And somebody'd be like, This time of year, a thing to do around here is to go shed hunting. And they'd have like a few paragraphs on it. And you would just read that over and over and over again because it was the only little scrap of information that you could find. And the the like scarcity of it Travis (11:05.784) Yeah. Travis (11:17.196) Mm-hmm. Kent Boucher (11:37.153) made it extra appreciated, like more special, you know. And now where it's kind of like you could find probably a thousand articles on shed hunting if you just Googled, you know, articles on shed hunting. And and I think that that for those of us who whose brain works in that way where we think of those things and we remember them and we're sad that they're gone. Travis (11:53.518) Totally. Travis (12:05.997) Mm-hmm. Kent Boucher (12:06.48) I think that having the printed product in our hands is what is is we're the people who value that. I hate reading like e copies of books. I hate it. I I have z I have zero interest in getting a Kindle. I have zero interest in in downloading a Kindle version of a book. I want the physical thing. And the same is true Travis (12:24.46) Yeah, I'm the same. Nicolas Lirio (12:25.045) Hm. yeah. Travis (12:34.286) Right. Kent Boucher (12:35.898) I think the for the artwork in the magazine, right? So it's it's not just the content in a magazine, it is the artwork that goes with it. Whether that be photography or a lot of times, especially in Field and Stream, a lot of it was was drawn. And and th like some of the some of the artists for Field and Stream had their own specific style that you just grew to appreciate and And that was all part of it too. So being able to hold that tangible thing. So yeah, I'm I'm loving it. And and I I've noticed that it's not just field and stream. Who's kinda going with that format of like the bigger what is it? Do you guys do quarterly publications now or? Travis (13:21.502) We are, we're to a year right now, but we're moving to a quarterly model. Yeah. Kent Boucher (13:23.315) Bi monthly. Kent Boucher (13:27.902) Sure. And I think that's I think that's great. You know, it's a it's more of a book and and you can you can appreciate I see a lot of other magazine companies that have pivoted to that same model and I think it's awesome and I'm glad that that magazines are are still doing their thing. You know, we right here in Iowa we have the Iowa Sportsman's magazine, which which I've written to for years or written for for years, and I love getting a new copy of that. You know, these are these are my neighbors that are telling me what they do to to have success fishing and hunting here in in Iowa, you know. So yeah, I think it's I think it's awesome. I I'm trying to remember. I think I have I have a copy. Maybe it's out it's either outdoor life or or feel and stream, but I have like a copy from nineteen thirty five somewhere at my house that yeah, it's it's the the artwork on that too is just beautiful, you know, so Travis (14:21.279) that's cool. Travis (14:27.81) Yeah. Kent Boucher (14:27.966) But we're not just here to talk about the beauty of a great historic iconic magazine here in in in America, but here in America we have something else that is iconic, and that is our public lands. And I gotta say, I was telling this to Nicholas yesterday, Travis. I feel exhaustion over the public land battle. and I feel guilty about it every time. I'm still participating, you know, I'm still firing off emails and stuff like that. But I going back to the Mike Lee thing, as we call it now, back in the big beautiful Bill drama that when was that? Was that a year ago? Yeah. Yeah. We were I mean, everyone from the outdoor space, not just hunters and and fish. Travis (15:16.854) Yeah, June of tw- Nicolas Lirio (15:16.969) Yeah, almost exactly a year ago. Kent Boucher (15:25.906) fishers, hunters and anglers. It was everybody, bird watchers, people who liked hiking on trails, backpackers, kayakers, honestly, groups of people who normally don't get along came together and and unified around this and the voice was was overwhelming on behalf of of not allowing this this first example of a public land sell off for the the how do we say it the declared need for housing in the desert and and it was very encouraging and it felt like when when mike lee fired off that tweet, all right hunters Travis (16:12.738) Right. Kent Boucher (16:22.898) I've heard you loud and clear. I'm pulling out my my little blurb that I wanted added to the big beautiful bill. It felt like a real victory and that we could move on. And that just has not been the case. In fact, instead of one big giant attack, it's felt more like, well, if we can't if we can't win with a full on assault. Travis (16:32.589) Right. Travis (16:37.901) Mm-hmm. Kent Boucher (16:50.184) Maybe we just do these little skirmishes here and there. And now we've just seen all these little tiny attempts to either open up the sale of public land, maybe similar to what Mike Lee did earlier, or increase extraction permitting or or maybe even Travis (16:53.261) Mm-hmm. Kent Boucher (17:18.17) open new areas to extraction that have n that have never been all you know, allowing extraction in the past. And and here we are again with this roadless rule proposition and I just feel like so weighed down and tired from the other conservation related stuff, especially here in Iowa where we're going through our governor, our governor's race and Travis (17:25.144) Mm-hmm. Travis (17:45.719) Yeah. Kent Boucher (17:47.657) water quality is such a huge deal here. Our cancer rate is such a huge deal here. And Nicholas and I have been, maybe even almost to the detriment of the podcast at times, been so hyper focused on that because it is I mean, it's the you gotta solve your problems at home first before you can solve your problems abroad. But I feel this exhaustion towards the public land fight. Travis (18:06.894) Right. more money. Kent Boucher (18:15.828) but I know that it's just as important now as it's been. Do you think I mean, as somebody who's on the front lines writing about it a ton, living out there where public land is the majority of your state, I think that's true, isn't it, in Montana? Aren't you guys over fifty percent public? Travis (18:33.166) I think we're somewhere in the 60 % neighborhood. Kent Boucher (18:36.584) Yeah. Yeah. So I mean it for you it's it is your water quality problem y you know that we have here. It is is the public land battle. Are you sensing that from from the community, the outdoor community, this exhaustion? Travis (18:53.806) I definitely sense it and I feel it myself. It's overwhelming, because there's something new every single day. like you were saying, they've gone from where is that big beautiful Bill, Mike Lee sell off was such an overt and obvious threat. Now it's more of a death by a thousand cuts type strategy. Yeah, I think there is there's an inevitable sense of just advocacy fatigue that comes along with that because you're getting so many. Yeah. Kent Boucher (19:30.066) That's a great term. Advocacy fatigue. I like that. That is great. Travis (19:34.67) Yeah, I think that's definitely real. but at the same time, I, if there's a silver lining, I think, you know, in the time that I've been writing about public lands battles for field and stream, I don't think the awareness has ever been higher. Um, just because there's, you know, we're facing more threats now than we have the recent past, but at the same time, people are more plugged in because of that. Um, and I think that just like elevates the awareness. and it encourages people to kind of engage more in that sense. Nicolas Lirio (20:10.367) Hmm. Are you finding that the demographic of people that care is majority of people who are in states with public land? Or is there like a sweeping movement in like New York, you know, where people are like, Yeah, we don't want them taken public land? Kent Boucher (20:10.494) Yeah. Travis (20:30.102) Yeah, man, that's a good question. And I'm in Western Montana, so I focus. just on my area, just by virtue of being here. But I I spent all I spent years living in Western North Carolina, where they have the Pisgah and Antahala National Forest. I mean, that's a million acres between those two places. And that that I lived there during, you know, it was like 2016 timeframe when I don't know if you remember Jason Chaffetz of Utah. He had his own kind of Mike Lee sell off proposal and I remember people in that area being, you know, freaking out big time because the public lands that they have in the East are, there's, a lot smaller than national forest. but that, that makes them more valuable to people. There's less of it. So I definitely feel like, and it's hard for me to say having been gone from that area for a while now, how it's playing out currently, but. Kent Boucher (21:21.748) Yeah, true. Travis (21:34.528) I feel like there are people in that region that are just as alarmed by threats to public lands. I mean, that's not uniform across the country though, right? Because the Midwest doesn't have quite what they have out there in the East. So yeah, it's hard for me to say how people feel about it if they're in an area where it's just not as present on their mind because they just don't have that easy access to it. Nicolas Lirio (22:04.425) Yeah. Yeah, I I it's it's tough 'cause in the Midwest we don't hear about it very much except for a few people, you know, the hunters that that are excited about it. And then I would even say of the hunters, it's probably less than half that really care. it's it's for the exact same reason that we gotta live we gotta give John F. Lacey a lot of credit. He knew that the national forests Kent Boucher (22:05.054) Yeah. Travis (22:18.104) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (22:28.637) If we were going to limit hunting, we'd have people care. And if people were gonna care, they had to be connected to it. So we gotta get these national forests in place that people could visit so they could go, yeah, we should save this, you know. And in the Midwest No yeah, sorry, national national parks. Yeah, thank you. and in the Midwest we have none. No Iowa has doesn't have a single federal, you know, managed park or anything. Travis (22:40.46) Right. Kent Boucher (22:40.882) National Parks, right? Wasn't it national parks, Nick, or was it also a national force? Kent Boucher (22:50.94) Yeah. We have no national parks. Well we do have we do while we do have a federal national monument, which is effigy mounds up in northeast Iowa. That's that I think that and then we do have some Travis (23:03.415) Okay. Nicolas Lirio (23:05.191) Yeah, that's fair. And then we we have state we have state parks, county parks. We w it's not that we don't have any public parks, but it we don't have any basically n nothing compared to what Montana has, you know, and and not as valued, not as traversed, you know, the in terms of of footprffic. Kent Boucher (23:11.592) Right. Kent Boucher (23:15.454) Far less, yeah. Right. Kent Boucher (23:23.848) Well, I think Travis I think Travis put a really good point in there, 'cause you're right, Nick. We it we're less connected from it, but I think because we have so few, like can you imagine if effigy mounds national monument was going to be sold off, like people in Iowa would come unglued, right? It we'd be like, That's our only one. You know, you took our you took our one our one spot. Nicolas Lirio (23:50.393) yeah. Kent Boucher (23:53.949) You know, and and and I think that's like I think that's why you know, something that all you know what, maybe Sergeant's Bluff, Iowa, they because that's Lewis and Clark significant. That's where that's where the one guy the one person who died from the expedition, he's buried somewhere up there by Nicolas Lirio (23:54.921) Yeah. Travis (24:08.536) Thanks Travis (24:14.423) and Kent Boucher (24:23.954) by Sergeant's bluff. But but point being, if you got rid of one of our very few pieces of federal land, we would be devastated as a state. And I think therein is where people from Iowa need to be connected to federal land sell-off, period, no matter where it's at. Travis (24:39.298) Mm-hmm. Travis (24:48.47) Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I was, was actually talking to a guy yesterday who's in Southern Ohio and they have the Wayne national forest down there. Yeah. I didn't know about it until yesterday, but I think it's maybe around 200,000 acres and it's not contiguous. So it's kind of spread out throughout the Southern part of the state. But he's up and they're up in arms because they're expediting a bunch of fracking activities. Kent Boucher (24:57.385) really? I didn't know that. Kent Boucher (25:18.184) Travis (25:18.91) in really subverting the public comment process. So people are, it's happening so fast and we're seeing this all over the country where public comment isn't playing quite the role that it has historically. But yeah, so there there's. Nicolas Lirio (25:32.959) What do you what w talk more about that? What what does that mean? Travis (25:37.638) The public comment being. Yeah, so I mean a good example of that I guess would be all the stuff we've seen with the Congressional Review Act kind of overturning resource management plans in different places. Just with an act of Congress, right? So these are resource management plans for, say, the Bureau of Land Management that took. Nicolas Lirio (25:38.815) Yeah, yeah. Travis (26:06.52) decade or more with stakeholder engagement, people weighing in, know, compromise to finally come to an agreement on how to manage a chunk of federal land. And then you're seeing people like Mike Lee, he tried to do this with the Grand Staircase Escalante National Monument in Utah, which actually just failed. But just simply overturning those resource management plans just with Kent Boucher (26:26.025) Mm. Travis (26:34.99) you know, simple majority vote in Congress. And then that just completely negates the public's right to participate in the process, the management process. Kent Boucher (26:43.422) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (26:44.084) okay, so public comment is for the management process, but if the management process can get axed by Congress, it doesn't matter anyway. Travis (26:52.768) Right. So all that public comment that was gathered during the formulation of the resource management plans is just thrown out the window. And if they want to alter, they're going to alter the resource management plans, then the public comment should play a role. shouldn't be up to a simple majority vote of Congress to just do that. Nicolas Lirio (27:14.943) Yeah. Yeah. I absolutely that I I totally agree. What one of the and I want to get back to your story in a second, but one of the things that I've been listening to this podcast and one of the main guys on it, his big thing is like the issue with our government, it's not like people are going in and there and they're evil and stuff. He's like, That happens. That's that's not the issue that has created the behemoth. The issue of the behemoth, and I'm sure you guys have heard this in ads, I'm gonna go to Washington and I'm gonna get this thing for us. Kent Boucher (27:43.293) Mm. Nicolas Lirio (27:43.444) And now all the senators and representatives are trying to pull. And so they go, hey, Mike Lee, I know you're not from Iowa, but if you'll vote for this thing for Iowa to get more money, I'll vote for your thing for you guys to get more money. Or basically, if you get resources, I'll get resources. Everyone's going home with resources. No one's willing to go home with less. No one's willing to go home and take no one's willing to take one for the team. And and so why would Kent Boucher (27:51.06) Yeah. Kent Boucher (28:07.838) That's a great point. Nicolas Lirio (28:09.075) Why would any program anywhere get axed? Because if even if it was like, hey, we're gonna stop funding the one million dollars we're doing for the water balloon fight in Delaware, Delaware would they would vote out there even if they don't go to that stupid water balloon fight. They'd be like, You're stealing stuff from us. My grandma went to that water balloon fight. You know what mean? So there is no incentive to do less. There is only incentive to go to Washington and bring back more money, more resources. And then now that's not exactly this, but Kent Boucher (28:29.445) Yeah. Kent Boucher (28:34.931) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (28:38.761) When Congress shows up and and they do that, then they're everybody loses. And I'm really sorry. I interrupted a story you were telling 'cause I didn't quite understand your public comment thing and and and so you were given an example of something going on now. Kent Boucher (28:51.314) Yeah, Wayne National Forest. Travis (28:53.046) Yeah, yeah. So the Wayne National Forest in southern Ohio, that's just an example of where public land is really few and far between there. So, you know, at least the guy that I talked to really up in arms and worried about that because their access to public land is so limited. So you take 20,000 acres of that national forest is, know, prime whitetail deer, turkey habitat, and you do fracking operations on Kent Boucher (29:18.834) Mm-hmm. Travis (29:22.954) on that big chunk, really, you take away a massive amount of their public land access. yeah, like I said, it's from what he tells me, there's not much public engagement going on. Kent Boucher (29:32.787) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (29:32.842) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (29:38.244) Interesting. Do you have any thought as to where mining could happen? Right. because if if everywhere we go we're no, you can't mine here in our state, which I kind of like obviously we don't want the boundary waters polluted with a copper mine. I I totally agree with that, but then I can't figure out like maybe mining is just a process we shouldn't do. Well then are we willing to give up cars and cell phones? You know, I so yeah. Kent Boucher (29:38.502) Yeah. Well Travis (30:04.846) Yeah, you have to be problematic about it for sure. And I think there are definitely places on our federally managed public lands where mining is appropriate and can be done without, you know, like you said, damaging a place like the boundary waters. I just think that that needs to be done pragmatically, not just you. Another example of the CRA, that's how they overturn the mineral withdrawal outside the boundary waters. So no public engagement there. Mining is an interesting one. mean, our laws around mining on federal land are extremely outdated. They date back to like 1872, I think. So a good place to start with that would be reforming that 1872 general mining law that was kind of formed when people were settling the West and just, you know, the government was incentivizing people, you know, heading out and doing whatever with very little regulation. yeah, I think there are... Kent Boucher (30:49.362) Hm. Nicolas Lirio (30:49.45) Wow. Travis (31:09.442) We have to mind on some of our federally managed public lands, it just needs to be done in a responsible, sustainable way. Kent Boucher (31:17.468) And I also think that so first of all we do have to within the public land what is it called the public land doctrine or something like that where it's a multi it's a multi use property. It's it's something that is available for for hunting, angling, hiking, all those recreational uses, but also for mining for mineral extraction for for a a handful of other things. And so people who like public land, such as us, we need to remember that, yeah, that's part of the there's a part of the pie that's worked into why we have this public land. But I think I think it's a lot of times good practice too to to allow for mining to be done on privately owned land. look look to a to allow that. I mean not now that can be dangerous too, right? Because you may own the most let's say you owned you know a significant portion of land around Lake Itasca and in in Minnesota, you know, the source of the Mississippi River. And you're like, I'm gonna open all this up for open pit mines 'cause I own this land. Like, obviously we have to we have to be careful with that too. But the the point being that if it's on privately owned land, like a lot of logging is, in this country, northern Maine, I think, is a good example of that. Huge huge amounts of land are owned by or at least leased, I guess, but and and a lot of it's public too. But for you know w wood and paper products. And so you know I think that that can be a a piece of it as well. And then honestly what happens a lot of times is because I and I I benefited from this in Montana, although I didn't I guess we just drove through it. We didn't hunt on it. There was there was a national forest I was hunting in Montana and we had to drive Kent Boucher (33:38.367) There was this road that went through a a big piece of timber that that was owned by a logging company and they allowed public access. I think you we you were even allowed to hunt there if you wanted to. We just never did. We just stayed in the national forest. But but like the idea there being you're not when you go and occupy all this space on a piece of public ground, well now it's solely devoted to that purpose sometimes. whereas if, you know, like you're not gonna go hunt in a mine, but but but whereas if it was just privatized that yeah, we just own this land, stay out, you know, then it's not you're not really limiting someone's opportunity then at that point. But but yeah, I think the conservation side of it though is the is the biggest concern. Access is a big concern as well. People need to be able to go and and do the things they wanna do. Travis (34:25.933) of them. Kent Boucher (34:38.386) But I think the bigger concern should always be how does it affect the resource? Travis (34:43.842) Right. Nicolas Lirio (34:43.957) So then what's going on? I d I didn't quite understand it. I and I read two like very brief three paragraph things about it, you know, kind of a thing. About the the road this road public lands thing that's going on. Roads rule yeah, what so is it like a loophole they're trying to get around and who's pushing for it? What's going on with that one? Kent Boucher (35:00.168) Road roadless rule. Yeah. Travis (35:02.574) grow this role. Travis (35:08.662) Yeah, so the roadless rule, I think officially it's called the roadless area conservation rule. It was established in 2001 and it's applied specifically to national forest lands. And there are, I think, roughly 58 million acres of what are called inventoried roadless areas throughout the whole national forest system. And that, you know, that extends from like the Monongahela in West Virginia all the way out. to Alaska as Tongass and a lot of places in between. basically what that rule was set up to do in 2001 was to just stop new road construction on these 58 million acres. And it was kind of at the time, it's been explained to me by Chris Wood, who's the CEO at Trout Unlimited, but he worked in the forest service at that time and was kind of instrumental in implementing the rule. But it was kind of an economic decision because the national forest system already has somewhere in the neighborhood of 370,000 miles of roads. so there, and then they have this deferred maintenance backlog, which I think, you know, in the, in the early 2000s, when this was set up, that was around 8 million or 8 billion. And today it's closer to 11 billion. but a huge chunk of that deferred maintenance backlog is attributed to deteriorating roads. so it's kind of like, can't maintain the road system that we do have. Let's stop building new roads in. in these areas and focus on the roads that we already have. So what it does is it just prohibits new road road building in those areas. It doesn't keep people off of those areas in any way. It doesn't keep people from utilizing the roads that already exist, even with motorized travel. And that's still allowed in a lot of these places. It simply just says we're not going to build new roads in these areas. Nicolas Lirio (36:55.733) Yeah. Kent Boucher (37:15.998) Hmm. Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (37:17.439) Yeah. Does that and so what they're trying to do is redact those that rule about the roads? So what Travis (37:24.032) Yeah. Yeah. It's good. Go ahead. Yeah. Well, it's kind of like getting attacked from several different angles. so you have the Trump administration's USDA that wants to rescind it and they, they kind of announced that, and I think it was around June 25th. They're planning to do that. And, Kent Boucher (37:26.258) Rescind, rescind that rule. Kent Boucher (37:46.28) June of tw June of twenty twenty five. Travis (37:48.566) Yeah, that's first started making headlines, but they, that would just rescind it through the bureaucratic channels at the USD. Yeah. Kent Boucher (37:56.265) I got a quick question here, 'cause the w was the Ambler Road was that gonna be packaged with this roadless rule, or is that a totally separate consideration? Travis (38:12.898) I think that's separate. I mean, that's around the Brooks Range in Alaska. And I mean, that seems to be moving forward thanks to a state transfer that went through, like where we transfer. Kent Boucher (38:23.166) So it's a state it's more of a state issue than a a federal issue. Travis (38:27.214) It will kind of branches into both because that that land up there where they want to start building the Ambler Road, it was BLM until very recently. They they the Department of Interior transferred it to Alaska, which is a panel. Kent Boucher (38:38.514) The state took it over. Kent Boucher (38:42.628) Okay. Now did they did they use or were Nicolas Lirio (38:44.713) Yeah, well yeah, isn't that in the the the trust is owned by the public and and how can you just transfer, you know, unless you're the executor of an estate. Travis (38:51.606) Yeah, it's a weird. Kent Boucher (38:52.818) Yeah, that'd be another one of those that'd be another one of those death by a thousand cut cuts maneuvers. Travis (38:58.86) Yeah, well when it comes to that one, Alaska has the what's called the Alaska Statehood Act. And from my understanding, they're entitled to a certain amount of acreage from the federal government. So they they use the Alaska Statehood Act to expedite the transfer of 1.4 million acres up there. So that's that's. Kent Boucher (39:24.094) But they weren't they weren't they weren't utilizing they weren't saying, Hey, if we can get this roadless rule rescinded, that will make it easier for us to put up this this highway for transporting, you know, all the products that they wanted to move across that road. Travis (39:38.72) Yeah, I don't I'm not 100 % sure if there's roadless rule implications with the Ambler Road like that. I don't think so. Kent Boucher (39:49.468) Okay. Now I always kinda wondered if those two things were were tied together. But yeah, if it's already going through and the roadless rule has not yet been rescinded, then it's they must be independent. Nicolas Lirio (40:02.347) So and sorry we've been interrupting you so much 'cause it's just like so much information, you know, I mean it's hard to keep track of all of it. But you were saying that it was attacked by the Trump administration in June twenty twenty five ish, but that there were other ways that they were kind of attacking this same issue. Travis (40:02.487) Yeah. Travis (40:06.966) Yeah. Travis (40:14.243) Thank Yeah, yeah, so more recently we've seen multiple attacks on the roadless role in Congress. So we have a Wyoming House representative named Harriet Hageman who introduced a bill recently to just rescind it all together. And that bill also includes a provision that would prohibit the USDA from ever like re-implementing the roadless rules, say during a future administration. So you have that, you have that in the House. And then you have most recently, Mike Lee's amendment to the Wildfire Prevention Act, which is like, it was a bipartisan kind of common sense wildfire bill that, yeah, like. Kent Boucher (40:50.217) wow. Travis (41:11.438) Like I said, mean, Democrats and Republicans both supported it pretty heavily until Mike Lee came in last week and added his amendment, which is basically just a full on nullification of the roadless role. Kind of unrelated really, other than it's just a, you know, similar to what he did with the budget reconciliation where he slapped on public land sales, just tacked it on. So that's what's going on there. Nicolas Lirio (41:33.324) Yeah. So I highly doubt that these politicians ran ran on thinking, you know what would really help our state getting rid of this roadless rule. Yeah, it would just unlock all sorts of because if they were like, look, it would unlock eight billion dollars of revenue for our state from the beginning, I don't agree with I don't like that, I don't agree with it, I don't support it, but I understand that thinking. Kent Boucher (41:34.323) Mm-hmm. Travis (42:02.062) you Nicolas Lirio (42:02.879) I highly doubt that's what's going on. My guess is that there is a very large entity whispering in their ear, you know, or maybe an entity that so I have I I should just say someone was sharing with me that there's like this rule of engagement for the higher level politicians, the ones that are going to DC, the ones that have been there a long time, they they sell their soul to the devil, not physically, not like I'm not a weird conspiracy theorist. Kent Boucher (42:10.95) Multiple probably. Travis (42:12.524) Right? Kent Boucher (42:30.9) Spiritually. Not spiritual Nicolas Lirio (42:31.687) Yeah. There no, what they do is metaphorically, they make a deal with some giant entity. There are entities in our country that can significantly raise their chances of getting in, or significantly raise their chance of being their party's representative going into the election, knowing that their party, whether red or blue, is gonna dominate the election when it comes to the when it comes to the general election past the primary. Right. And so what they do is these large entities say, Okay. You do all the decisions you want that'll help. Here, here are the three things you have to do, you know? And so almost every politician has those where they go, Hey, I'll sit here and I'll listen to you. This happens. This happens with hundreds of our politicians in DC. This is what's going on. I'll listen to you as long as it's not one of these three things. I'll make I'll do a common sense deal. And that's why a lot of them have are very like make really good decisions, and then all of a sudden they're like, Travis (43:20.11) you Nicolas Lirio (43:30.069) For three or four or five things, they're like, that just doesn't line up with everything else you believe in. What is going on here? Why do you do that? and and so there's you know, they sold their soul to the devil, had have to do three terrible things. now I'm not saying that's what's going on with Mike Lee. Mm, but almost guarantee you somebody on the back end or multiple people probably are whispering Say, you know, whether it'll benefit him or they've convinced him it actually would be better for the people around, which I think some people do believe that. They think as long as we get more money, that's better. No matter what, as long as we get more money, that's better. So who do you think, or what do you think, like what industry, what organization, who's who's in the back end of this pushing this forward? Because we we read Mike Lee's name, but someone is behind it. Travis (44:17.378) Right. Yeah, it's hard to say because it's so widespread, you know, I mean, if it if they lifted the restrictions in the Tongass in Southeast Alaska, there's a lot of, you know, old growth Sitka spruce and like Western red cedar that could be that could be logged. So the timber industry would benefit there and other places. You know, I think it's just specific to each place. But really, the only people that stand to benefit are like the only group that stands to benefit from these kind of commercial scale roads in these back country areas are going to be industry. Not yeah, yeah. And I don't know if this is happening or going to happen or not, but it seems like data centers are going up at an insane rate. And I could see, you know, maybe that gets folded into the multiple use mandate for our federal public lands. Nicolas Lirio (44:56.52) Extractors. Kent Boucher (44:58.824) Mm-hmm. Kent Boucher (45:15.012) Whoa. That would be terrible. Travis (45:15.911) roads. Yeah, and that's just speculation. yeah, other than industry. Kent Boucher (45:23.208) Well, th they have actually talked about that though with I don't know if it's been a recent thing, Travis. I mean you'd know better than me, but like solar farms. Weren't they wasn't there some talk about doing huge solar farms on public land? Travis (45:27.726) Thank Travis (45:37.026) Yeah, definitely. I think we have seen some of that too, like on BL, that that's our, that already exists. Kent Boucher (45:40.027) Okay. Nicolas Lirio (45:43.766) really? Well, I mean I there I'm not for just giant industry and and metal stakes being put out, but and there are the majority of BLM ground is not appropriate. But there's there's probably appropriate BLM ground, you know, where it's like, it's barren rock and earth and as long as we're not totally decimating the the limited fauna and flora that are out here, you know, that It it makes sense. Or or it makes more sense than putting it most places. But even then a lot of it just kinda boils down to like we just want more. We want more energy for cheaper. We want to do more stuff for less. We wanna you know. So man. Travis (46:14.126) Right. Travis (46:21.006) Definitely. Yeah. Kent Boucher (46:23.432) Well and what's what's interesting there too is like especially and I I'm not anti solar. I'm I'm I'm a fan of solar, I I think as long as it can make sense. the but what's interesting there And the the same would be true for the data centers is now you are taking a publicly held resource, which is the the surface area, right? and then in the case for a data center, you're also going to be using some kind of water resource to cool the servers and everything. you're you're using something held by the public to make Travis (46:48.558) you Kent Boucher (47:06.376) big financial gains off of, right? It's not like it's that's the public's data center, so all you know, all storage usage there or that those that's the public's solar panels, so that's money going back to the the Americans you know coffers or something like that. Travis (47:21.41) Right. Travis (47:29.782) Right? Kent Boucher (47:31.174) It no, it's it's a private entity that's going to fully benefit off of it and in perpetuity, right? I mean, who knows how long a solar farm gets to be there. I guess they I I assume they have to pay a lease, right? And that's kind of the i the idea. But from what I've seen, a lot of times the the lease payments for for the what is being extracted is is, you know, a a tiny, tiny fraction of the value. So it it's Travis (47:58.2) Definitely. Yeah. Kent Boucher (48:00.081) It's I mean, it's just kind of a icky reality of it, you know. Nicolas Lirio (48:04.299) Have seen Bernie Sanders' recent thing where he wants the big at least big AI companies, but maybe just big tech companies in general to if they're gonna put up data centers and and some of these other things to have to donate a huge chunk of their stock to go into an American public trust. He's like, if you're gonna get rich off of our stuff, you're gonna give us some of the the like Kent Boucher (48:32.518) I have seen that, yeah. Like their skin in the game for them. Nicolas Lirio (48:33.987) It yeah. Which is it it totally makes sense, but also it just it it's still sprinting down the highway of like, well, as long as I get more money out of it, you know, who cares? You know, and and I'm like, dude, that's just money won't make you happy. Won't make you happy. So so out of all of this stuff, like, where do you because it's not a hopeless situation? What needs to happen on our end that people who are listening, what are they Travis (48:36.504) That makes sense. Kent Boucher (48:45.416) Mm. Right. Kent Boucher (48:50.313) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (49:02.655) What do they need to do? What do we need to be talking about? Where are the critical points where we can actually make a difference on on these issues? Travis (49:09.656) Mm-hmm. Yeah, well, yeah, I think the roadless rule fight is a big one. You know, call your senators, call the Capitol switchboard and express, you know, your opposition if you have any to Mike Lee tacking that amendment on at the last minute to what was a bipartisan bill. You know, that's that's not going to stop the USDA's push necessarily to rescind it. But if it becomes extremely unpopular and toxic. that could have an effect. But I think, yeah, the main thing with all this stuff is to just stay engaged as hard as it is, you know, with all with all the overwhelming amount of threats happening every every day. But there is there are encouraging things happening to like the there's a Public Lands Integrities Act that's kind of working through the House right now. And they're trying to get sponsors in the Senate. And that would essentially just prohibit Nicolas Lirio (49:44.436) Hm. Travis (50:10.926) the sale of public land during budget reconciliation kind of like directly addresses what Mike Lee did last summer. So stuff like that. mean that's you can lend your support there and that you know those kinds of things can definitely make a difference. Kent Boucher (50:18.472) Mm. Nicolas Lirio (50:27.787) Hmm. Kent Boucher (50:28.114) Yeah. Yeah, the just real quick, I looked up the capital switchboard and I think it's important to try and make this stuff as accessible as possible for people. maybe Nick will remember to like put a little link that you could even click with your your thumb in the show notes here. But it's two zero two two two four three one two one. And when you call that number it'll, you know, ask you where where you live to figure out who you're who your senators and who your reps are and you'll go to their office and you'll probably get their voicemail. And I remember during the big beautiful Bill Mike Lee deal, I think it was Chuck Grassley here in Iowa, his his inbox was full and I took that to mean that there were a lot of people calling here in Iowa on that issue. So yeah, I think it's Travis (51:05.261) Yeah. Travis (51:21.294) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (51:21.995) Yeah. Or if you go to ballotpedia dot org, you can find all your reps. Like if you put in your zip code, it'll show you all your your reps. I I think even down to a local level. But yeah, the so I mean, you've probably heard of of Chuck Grassley, Travis. We just in Iowa, we just picked him in nineteen eighty and that was it. Kent Boucher (51:27.121) Okay. Kent Boucher (51:33.394) Awesome. Kent Boucher (51:46.046) Your great your great your great grandpa parents probably heard of Chuck Grassley. Yeah, he's I think he's n I think he's ninety two. I think he's ninety two now. Travis (51:47.726) He's still working around. Nicolas Lirio (51:51.212) I think I think now he's the longest. Well yeah, because he's got this picture on ballotpedia and I've shaken his hand. He seemed like a nice guy. He seemed politician y. so I don't want to poop on him as a person. but he has a much spr Travis (51:51.424) Yeah, yeah. Is he one of the longest? Is he in the Senate? Yeah, 92. Kent Boucher (52:10.204) Nick was just disappoint Nick is just disappointed he didn't get one of those those hard coffee candies when he shook his hand. You know, what kinda what kind of what kind of old guy are you? Where's your where's the coffee candy? Nicolas Lirio (52:17.555) Yeah, he didn't even he didn't I think he kissed me as a baby. I d the but on here he's got this picture that makes him look like sixty five, maybe seventy years old. And and I've seen him recently and he looks a lot older than that, you know, and and so I just kinda Travis (52:22.574) Yeah, I need my coffee. Kent Boucher (52:34.761) Yeah. Travis (52:36.355) Yeah. Kent Boucher (52:40.905) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (52:42.665) Kinda interesting. But yeah, if you go to ballotpedia dot org and it'll give you a bunch of information about your your representatives at the various levels and it it's friends, it is important to do that. We talk about conservation, water quality, environmental stuff, agriculture, culture, but there's other things that you should be emailing them about. You know what I mean? Especially, you know, with your state, what's decided to do with schools, what you decide to do with what you decide to do at like a local city level. Like Kent Boucher (53:02.589) Yeah, yeah. Nicolas Lirio (53:10.975) Them hearing from you and hearing from a thought out person, there are people who email us on this podcast regularly. And I don't email them back every single time, but I know their name. And if they came up and shook their hand and said, Hey, I this is who I am, I would know exactly who they are and I would have a lot of context and I would think you're a thought out person. I you know, you you have thoughts. Yeah. Kent Boucher (53:30.856) Yeah. You'd have respect. You'd have respect for even if you disagreed on every issue, you would respect the fact that they cared about it. You know what I mean? And and I think who who's the guy you know, Nick, that would send a letter to all of his reps like every week or something? Travis (53:40.867) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (53:42.336) Now Nicolas Lirio (53:50.298) my history we have my history teacher in in high school. what a legend. Kent Boucher (53:53.609) I think that's a brilliant idea. I think that's a brilliant idea. Just kinda give like a synopsis of what's going on in the world and what you think about it. And you're gonna be at the forefront of those that staff, 'cause it's not just the one representative, it's the whole staff that works with them. You know, here's Nicholas Lirio again. But they they're gonna know and they're gonna to some degree care about what you have to say. I think that's a great Travis (54:11.246) Right. Nicolas Lirio (54:19.019) And I think I yeah, yeah. I don't I don't want to think about government so often that I'm sending an email once a week. It's not good for my soul. But I want to say one great benefit we have of Chuck Grassley is that all of the devils he may have made deals with in the past are probably dead. So he might not owe anyone any anything, you know what I mean? man, he's he's been there so long. So the the Kent Boucher (54:25.318) Yeah. Travis (54:25.804) See you later. Kent Boucher (54:38.418) Ha ho ho. Nicolas Lirio (54:47.881) The public land thing, that is that is a huge deal, but now that you're pushing for it and and people are getting that advocacy fatigue, what is the story like? I know you've worked closely with Ryan Callahan, right? Just leading the charge. Pheasants Forever up in there, leading the charge. Obviously, you guys, backcountry hunters and anglers, just like these people that are Kent Boucher (55:14.1) Trout Unlimited's always very involved too, it seems. Nicolas Lirio (55:16.523) Trout Trout Unlimited. Yeah. And Ducks Unlimited. They're just these people leading the charge, but eventually people donated the three hundred dollars they had available to be able to donate. They they've been sending the emails, they're not seeing any change. But this is not the first time we've ever fought for conservation. What do you guys actually do to motivate people? You know, like how do you how do you keep people engaged on this? Travis (55:34.573) Mm-hmm. Travis (55:44.066) Yeah, that's a really good question. And it is tough right now. I think when we can get a win somewhere, highlighting that and not just solely focusing on the litany of negativity that's coming out, that's probably something I need to be better about. But I think highlighting the successes when we do have them and then trying to use that momentum to drive people forward, I'd say that's a Kent Boucher (56:02.152) Mm. Travis (56:13.122) That's a good strategy as far as, you out. Nicolas Lirio (56:15.071) Yeah. Kent Boucher (56:17.32) Yeah, I liked I like that idea. I think if we all those of us who enjoy public land, if we are thoughtful and how we present that, not just to I I mean Instagram is really kind of a silo for posting content. Yeah, you have something that maybe gets a little, you know, like a baby viral, you know, like where it gets like twenty thousand views or something, where you're getting people outside of your o your own followers. But the vast majority of posting that goes on Instagram is it goes to your followers, right? And and but when you and and at least for me, the way I curate Travis (56:39.445) Yeah. Travis (56:49.762) Right. Kent Boucher (56:57.0) followers on Instagram who I follow and and that kind of thing and who ends up following me is usually around things that we have in common, right? So they already are probably on the same page as I am, with things like public land. But when I look at something like Facebook, where I got people that I went to high school with, you know, maybe an old high school friend's parents or or Former coaches and teachers, people who are the thing that we have in common is not our common interest. It's the fact that we knew each other for a long time. You know what I mean? when you show those people who maybe have no no you know, like thought out, yeah, I'm on public land right now. They might like going to Yellowstone and they maybe don't think of, okay, how does Yellowstone exist? When you show, hey, Travis (57:32.472) Great. Yeah. Kent Boucher (57:55.049) Look at this, I'm enjoying this piece of public land and I'm able to do so because it exists because of the this legislation and and this is the public land doctrine and you know, when you start like putting putting like those little thoughtful nuggets out there, not necessarily like a full on sermon, but but just a little nugget and like a beautiful picture of you and your family having a great time or or people can then make that connection. Travis (58:15.278) great. Travis (58:20.909) Mm-hmm. Kent Boucher (58:25.052) And then and then they value it. And once people know what they have, they're a lot less likely to sell it, you know. Travis (58:28.035) Yeah. Travis (58:34.36) Totally. Yeah, yeah. think that's hugely important to just highlight it from a positive perspective and just, yeah, kind of share your experiences on these lands. And if you can work in a little bit about how we all have a shared common ownership of this, what is just a vast wealth of natural unspoiled lands, it's unlike anything else in the world, really, as far as the model goes. Nicolas Lirio (58:34.601) Hm. Interesting. Travis (59:02.228) I think just communicating that is very important. Kent Boucher (59:05.224) Yeah. Yeah, very well said. Nicolas Lirio (59:07.487) That's what something that's interesting to me and I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna connect these two dots here, so bear with me. But social media is hyper addicting with basically no regulation on it, right? Tobacco ravaged the country until there was strong regulation on it. Am I fighting for a bunch of regulation on it? No. But I do think that people are waking up pardon me. Travis (59:24.291) me. Nicolas Lirio (59:36.532) and realizing that they are addicted to social media and and want to break out of it. And and as we have more of that success, we're gonna be further and further along from from addiction. I am very curious back to our conversation about magazines, with young kids, the difference in quality of brain that the kids whose parents said, Yeah, we're not Dude, I know it's weird. You're not having a phone until you're 16, you know, or whatever they decide to do with that to keep their kids from having the dopamine addiction on the lottery slots on their phone, versus the, you know, the kids who really were very unsupervised and are highly dopamine addicted and really struggle to even have strong mental fortitude, you know, of any sort. So I I'm curious to see how that branches. But when we talk about Kent Boucher (01:00:07.134) Mm-hmm. Nicolas Lirio (01:00:32.223) Public lands and we talk about extracting it. Nicolas Lirio (01:00:39.615) We're fighting our own condition. Like us three right here. When we when we send emails to our representatives and say, We don't want this, we are fighting our own condition. Our own human condition says, I want more for less. I want it to be more convenient. The path of least resistance and greed put together creates most of the fall of man. And so I want to acknowledge that that if we're not willing to just like consume less. If we're not willing to go to the farmer's market to get a little bit of food, if we're not willing to have it cost us more money for the energy that we have in our house, if we're not willing to pay more for oil or some of these things, but we're still gonna fight that we don't get to extract that resource, I'm not trying to virtue signal, but if our politicians are successful and we say, hey, we want all of those things and Travis (01:01:24.13) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:01:37.396) We don't want to pay for it in our public lands. You know who's gonna pay for it? Poor countries. Like other countries in the world, we're gonna ext extract off of their backs, we're gonna pull it into this country, we're gonna stay wonderful, we're gonna keep our fences and our big houses and our nice cars, you know, and our giant SUVs. We're gonna have all of those things. We won't have to pay for it. my guess is as the poorer countries are rapidly becoming first world countries and industrializing themselves. Travis (01:01:42.807) Mm-hmm. Nicolas Lirio (01:02:07.049) That's gonna be a harder and harder fight. And so then again, we'll have we'll have to circle back to where we're at right now, which is what happened. Fun fact the last 40 years, we went to China, China industrialized, raised their prices. We've gone to India. India is re industrializing, getting smarter about it. And a lot of their nationals are leaders of our big tech companies. So now we're like, okay, well, we'll be Southeast Asia. We'll have a lot of our stuff made in Southeast Asia. But these places are. And so we're back to square one. We're back to the United States saying, hey, we probably need to extract here. Our only real solution is just using less as a as a human base. Now I'm I'm for the emails. I send the emails. but if we don't bring it all the way back to just like eating less ice cream and y using data centers less often, which is anything you do on a screen, basically, is use the data center. if we're not willing to do that less Travis (01:02:39.918) Mm-hmm. Travis (01:02:53.784) Ready? Kent Boucher (01:02:59.934) Mm-hmm. Nicolas Lirio (01:03:02.879) We're gonna eventually lose the fight. Cause one day it'll come down to, hey, either this data center gets built or you pay fifteen dollars a month for Facebook. And I just don't think people are gonna be willing to do that. Travis (01:03:15.744) Right. Yeah. Yeah. There's a level of personal sacrifice that people are going to have to accept. Yeah. And just kind of go against this bigger is better mentality that is so prevalent in our society. And you think about like everything that the people that set up our public lands, everything that they sacrifice and work through to get that system, you know, the way it is. And it was all with. Kent Boucher (01:03:29.777) Mm-hmm. Travis (01:03:40.834) with the benefit of future generations in mind. wasn't, know, bigger is better, focus on yourself kind of mentality that prevailed back then whenever we got all this stuff set up the way it is today. Nicolas Lirio (01:03:58.134) Yeah. I I've I have this fun little thing I I think about like, what if we took half of all of big big entertainment technology? So there's a lot of big tech companies out there, but like the ones that are focused on entertainment, which would be any social media, any of the streaming services, stuff like that. if we took half of the talent that's there, because they have recruited the highest level talent in our country for entertainment, and we just Stuck them in the medical field. You know what I mean? Just like, you know, how much more we would progress as a civilization if we were able to be like, well, yeah, we we all go and visit the woods. We basically everyone here fishes and we live to a hundred and ten. You know, that that would just I think that would go a long way. Cause the big thing when we talk about technological advance, Kent and I talk about this a lot, is the medical, right? It's like, well, if we could do without social media, if we could do without this, like all this stuff, it'd Travis (01:04:29.837) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:04:56.149) probably be better for us, but you know, you don't want to get rid of penicillin. you know, so if we could further medical without having to further all the other stuff that medical now pays for, like eating too much ice cream. my doctor bills are getting really high, guys. That's why I keep bringing it up. the then I that would be it's just a fun thought experience like what if we actually took like the money that was spent Travis (01:05:01.89) way. Kent Boucher (01:05:16.18) Ha Nicolas Lirio (01:05:25.915) at Meta and and used it for and just like stuck it in, you know, the Mayo Clinic, what would happen? I don't know. Travis (01:05:32.418) Yeah. Yeah. think about you redirected all the, that resource, those resources and that mental capital to something like you're saying, positive, like a medical advancement instead of just trying to get people more addicted to screens and spend more time engaging with, meaningless stuff on social media. Kent Boucher (01:05:52.521) Yeah. So what's the what's the timeline here? I and I agree with all all that you said there, Nick, I think. the the it it becomes a an illogical way of conducting ourselves if we're gonna if we're always gonna scream a version of not in my backyard and and yet demand that the resource that would be that would be provided by whatever was going to be put up in your backyard. You're still demanding that product, but you're saying that it's not allowed to be manufactured anywhere or extracted anywhere or whatever. that's that's an illogical point of view. And so I agree that yes, we should absolutely be saying no to open pit mining near the boundary waters. We should be saying no, please do not rescind the roadless rule and and and please do not begin selling off our public lands. But we need to then also be able to say and I understand the consequences for not not allowing it. I and and I understand and I accept the consequences for not allowing it. And and not only is it just better to be a reasonable person and that helps you be a more reasonable person by taking that logical standing, but I think it gives our message stronger pull in the public and it helps discipline us in the ways that we need to change not just how we think but how we how we actually live it out, you know. So but as far as the timeline goes, yep, we need to be reaching out to our our lawmakers, but Travis (01:07:45.219) Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:07:52.08) Any idea when this is likely to you know, like a a final decision is to be made, Travis? Travis (01:07:59.848) Yeah, it's kind hard to say. So Mike Lee's thing could go before a full Senate vote in the coming weeks, I guess. It hasn't really been announced when it will. Again, that's going to be a tough one to pass now that he put that amendment in there, because it would be subject to a filibuster from the Democrats. So, you know, that's one. Kent Boucher (01:08:09.96) Okay. Nicolas Lirio (01:08:22.869) Do you think it would if they took that amendment out, it should be passed? Like it the rest of the bill makes sense? Travis (01:08:30.668) I think so. Yeah. Yeah. From what I've read and what I've heard people talk about on that, you know, like Martin Heinrich, who sits on the Senate Energy and Natural Resource Committee, as well as a big champion for public lands. you know, he came out and said this was a bipartisan effort that was going to pass. Now, Mike Lee put a poison pill in it. It's going to be a problem. So, yeah, I think it was good, fundamentally pretty good legislation before he did that. So, yeah, you just. Nicolas Lirio (01:08:32.009) Okay. Nicolas Lirio (01:08:52.597) Hmm. Nicolas Lirio (01:08:57.309) Is the is the amendment stuck? Like, could we send emails saying, Hey, please take this amendment out and then vote yes? Or the amendment's in and so it's all or nothing? Travis (01:09:07.416) That's a good question. feel like it could probably be taken out if there was enough pressure or the whole thing would just kind of fall apart. I don't know. That's a good question. I don't know if they can take that out now that it's in there. and then the time frame on the USDA's effort to rescind it, that's also just up in the air. It's kind of stuck in. Nicolas Lirio (01:09:19.775) Hmm. Yeah, yeah. Travis (01:09:35.01) just bureaucratic channels at the USDA and that there will be an announcement when they get to where they can drop the rule and then there'll be like a short maybe 30 day comment period, which that's another thing to point out about the roadless rule. There's been overwhelming public support for keeping it like dating all the way back to 2001 when they put it in place. I mean, they gathered more than a million public comments and like overwhelmingly 99%. Kent Boucher (01:09:57.342) Mm-hmm. Travis (01:10:04.846) of people supported it. And then after the Trump administration announced in June that they wanted to rescind it, they did another kind of short comment period. And I think they got about 625,000 comments and 90 plus percent of people that commented wanted to retain the roadless rule. So it's just another important point about it. Kent Boucher (01:10:30.46) Okay. Nicolas Lirio (01:10:30.847) When not the public comment side, but when we just send emails and and call into the switchboard and and that's going on, do they actually read that? Do they have an assistance just ticking whether it's for or against, you know, so they can be like, Well, seventy percent of the people said they don't want me to vote for, you know. What do they actually do with that? They're or do they sit down for eight hours a day, you know, and just read through these things? Travis (01:10:58.252) Yeah, I don't know. I think a lot of it just gets diverted to staff and then the staff kind of collects the general sentiment that they're getting and then gives that to the representative as like a synopsis. Maybe I know that, you know, during the budget, Mike Lee's budget bill that would have sold off or his amendment to the budget bill that would have sold off three million acres or whatever, people's offices were just getting so inundated that it was like hard for them to go about their daily business. So if it rises to that level, it's like impossible to ignore. Nicolas Lirio (01:11:30.057) Hmm. Kent Boucher (01:11:31.058) Yeah. Well and I Yeah, right. And I mean, they're there because they were popular enough with their constituents to be put there. And so I think when you have a massive response, that's what it's communicating is this is a big voter block that I'm either gonna make happy or I'm gonna make mad. And and that that's how it should work. That's a democratic process. But I do think here again is where states that are Travis (01:11:44.92) Mm-hmm. Kent Boucher (01:11:59.825) underrepresented in federal public land, their their legislators, if they don't hunt and fish themselves, they probably don't really have an opinion on public land. they it's not something that they've had to think through really. It's not something that their constituents are talking to them about often. And so then all of a sudden when this this you know, proposal gets put up that they're going to be voting on and they really don't know much about it and they're like, I'm from Iowa. What do I care about a roadless rule that's that would affect Wyoming? And all of a sudden they get, you know, a thousand people from Iowa that say, Hey, vote no on this. Then the temptation to just take the party line medicine on the on the when it comes to voting Travis (01:12:39.394) Right. Travis (01:12:47.851) Okay. Kent Boucher (01:12:57.172) They're gonna be like, hold on a second here. I got a bunch of people here that that I represent that care about this. I don't know anything about it. Why do they care about it? And I think that that's where, you know, the emails and the phone calls matter is when it's coming from places like Iowa. And whereas when you're elected in in Montana or in Mike Lee's case, Utah, people probably actually vote for you there. based on your stance on public land. Like that's you know, it's that's that's up there with abortion and you know the federal debt and all the other big things that people people want to you know choose a candidate over. I would imagine that for for some of these places that have huge amounts of public land, there the politician's stance on public land is is how that voting gets decided. Travis (01:13:27.554) Thank you. Nicolas Lirio (01:13:27.839) Hmm. Kent Boucher (01:13:54.015) to some degree. So so Mike Lee getting five thousand emails from people from Utah for or against doesn't his mind is already made up. Whereas somebody, you know, Chuck Grassley. I rem I remember when there was a time you could you could find out if you go back and do a little sleuthing here on our past episodes, but we interviewed a politician and Travis (01:13:54.378) definitely. Definitely. Nicolas Lirio (01:13:55.167) Yeah. Travis (01:14:04.675) Great. Kent Boucher (01:14:21.32) They started going in on public land and I wanted to debate but that wasn't the point of the the interview. The point was just to expose people to these people's viewpoint. And and this person started the conversation on on their own and they were terribly uninformed. And they made some very illogical arguments that were just hanging there like these big meaty, you know, like, I wanna I wanna fight you over that, but I I didn't. but Travis (01:14:44.462) You Right. Kent Boucher (01:14:50.704) It showed when when that person was saying that, I was like, Holy cow, you've spent twenty minutes in your entire life thinking about this, I can tell. And that you are you are very uninformed because you don't need to be where you're you know, where where you sit. It's not something that in your political career has probably really ever come up. And and so I think that in the underrepresented states that's where the voice can really make the difference. 'Cause their vo their vote, you know, Chuck Grassley's vote counts just as much as Mike Lee's vote does. Travis (01:15:30.22) Right. Yeah, Nicolas Lirio (01:15:31.37) Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:15:33.844) So I think it is worth it to reach out. So well, we need to keep our ear to the to the ground. You got any other cool let's talk about something. Have you got any other cool articles that you've written recently, Travis, or something that you're working on that people might enjoy checking out over at Field and Stream? Travis (01:15:49.89) Yeah, so I wrote a couple articles for an upcoming print issue that were pretty fun. We have this tradition of as told to stories where we will interview some, excuse me, we'll interview somebody that survived like a near death experience. Kent Boucher (01:16:02.225) Kent Boucher (01:16:08.562) Yeah, yeah, yeah. I used to love reading reading those I shouldn't be alive type stories, yeah. Travis (01:16:13.39) Yeah, that kind of thing. And then we tell it from their first person perspective. So it's like the person that survived the attack or lightning strike or whatever it is gets the byline. And then it's like as told to me. Yeah, did one on a guy that got struck by lightning while fishing down in Florida. And then a guy that got attacked by a grizzly while elk hunting. Nicolas Lirio (01:16:35.243) Hmm. Our coworker just got struck by lightning. yeah, just last week. He got sh struck by his hand was outside the truck. Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:16:38.612) Travis (01:16:40.994) Kent Boucher (01:16:44.296) Well, his his ve his vehicle did, but his arm was outside the window when it got struck. But he's okay, thankfully. Nicolas Lirio (01:16:50.475) Yeah. Yeah, and he's i I told him, I was like, You gotta go to the hospital, you gotta go he's like, No, no, no. And then he Travis (01:16:50.553) Kent Boucher (01:16:55.31) And it was not in a company vehicle and it was not on company time, so Osha, don't you dare come after us. Nicolas Lirio (01:16:59.595) Yeah. Yeah, he he's he's a little bit of a storm chaser. He he's kind of a he's kind of one of those guys and and and he had his hand out the window and he said it t his arm tingled and was like a weird numbing sensation for about three days and then it went away. I was like, dude. I know. I know, but anyway, so you had a grizzly bear attack as well? Travis (01:17:17.422) That's great. Travis (01:17:24.354) Yeah, there was a guy that got attacked mauled by a grizzly while elk hunting in Wyoming. And they actually had to end up shooting it because it was, it was mauling him. But that, then something else that got stabbed by a Marlin while they were fishing kind of like through the, through the mouth. It's kind of gorgeous. yeah. Kent Boucher (01:17:30.292) Mm-hmm. Nicolas Lirio (01:17:36.714) Kent Boucher (01:17:43.732) Nicolas Lirio (01:17:45.824) That's crazy. I I I've got a question I don't and but maybe you haven't heard of it yet. Alaska recently passed this thing where people can't get their firewood from public forests. Travis (01:18:01.07) yeah. So I have heard about that. think. Nicolas Lirio (01:18:03.987) And it's like devastating people's lives, but it's a very small amount of people's lives. But it's like devastating their livelihood and how they do their communities. Kent Boucher (01:18:13.084) Mm. Travis (01:18:14.178) Well, that goes back to what we were talking about earlier with that state transfer. It's along the, a lot of it is along a highway there called the Dalton Highway, which is popular with hunting and fishing. But yeah, those people, think it might be in like Wiseman. yeah, they rely on gathering their firewood off what was previously federally managed public land, which is. Nicolas Lirio (01:18:31.092) Yeah, that's what it was, yeah. Travis (01:18:39.212) I do that out here in Montana, we heat our own with wood and it's pretty common for people to get their firewood off the national forest. But now those folks with that state transfer going through are kind of in limbo because the state hasn't specified how it's going to impact their firewood gathering capabilities. Yeah, that's one symptom of transferring federal. Kent Boucher (01:19:02.078) So so yeah, so it just basically they were under one set of rules when it was federal land and then okay, state transfer, here's what the state land rules are and the state land rules basically made it illegal. Is that is that kinda how it is? Travis (01:19:16.462) I think it's more of like they're in limbo and the transfer happens so fast that they haven't established or communicated what the rules are. So these people might still be, they probably still are gathering firewood because if they don't, they're going to have a really rough year, but they're, they're just not, they're very uncertain about the future of that because of that transfer. Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:19:29.628) Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:19:36.478) Yeah, that is crazy. Nicolas Lirio (01:19:38.462) Yeah, I'm embarrassed to say it. I saw it on social media scrolling in my bed. I was watching a a reel. No, no, I what was embarrassing was I was watching this reel of this lady chopping down a whole tree while I was laying in my boxers in my bed way too late into the morning and I was like, What the heck? And she was she was saying that the issue is not that there was the transfer, it's that they Kent Boucher (01:19:45.192) And Nick became enraged. Travis (01:19:47.366) You Nicolas Lirio (01:20:07.133) need to get something figured out really quick because winter comes you know, you got a half a month or half a week of summer and then we s they start going back into winter and winter can easily be 30, 40 below and they need they need to be able to gather before then. and so they can't wait. But there weren't that she it was just like several dozen people. It wasn't even like you know, it wasn't even hundreds of people, but it they gotta move otherwise. and they gotta move soon. They gotta move within a couple months. Otherwise they don't know what they're gonna do. Travis (01:20:09.87) V Travis (01:20:13.678) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:20:37.275) and that it was just I don't know, it was interesting to see like a a group of humans that were living off the land that the government was like, and but there it was almost like they just fell between the cracks. You know, it's like someone forgot to send an email almost and now these people's livelihood is like destroyed. Travis (01:20:37.294) Totally. Kent Boucher (01:20:54.984) Hm. Well, I doubt anybody's enforcing it. Nicolas Lirio (01:21:00.307) Yeah, that's what I was wondering. I was like, I don't know if anybody's going out there and man. But I think it would be sorry. Travis (01:21:00.354) I wouldn't think so. I think that's just a of that transfer happening at such breakneck speed and you know them trying to push it through while they have the political capital to do so and things like that inevitably fall through the cracks. Kent Boucher (01:21:03.956) Yeah. Well. Kent Boucher (01:21:21.128) Yeah. Well truck. Nicolas Lirio (01:21:21.343) Yeah. Yeah, that that makes sense. Kent Boucher (01:21:23.196) Travis, we really appreciate you coming on, man, and and more importantly, not just coming onto our podcast to talk about it, but just covering it. because I have that was such a great term you said. Advocacy fatigue. I have that and and I sense that the com the community does. And well, social media doesn't paint the full picture, of course. We all understand that, but it does give us a good idea as to where a lot of people are on on things, and I just see far far less people talking talking about it than I did you know, a year ago with and and so I sense that everybody I'm not saying to to call us out as a community. I just I get it, you know, when when you keep fighting the same battle over and over again, it's it's hard to it's hard to like work up the energy for it time and time again. But it's so critically important that we do. And I think that the role of people such as yourself and Travis (01:22:12.866) Mm-hmm. Kent Boucher (01:22:23.036) you know, the other people writing about it, people over at Backcountry Hunters and Anglers who are on the you know, the very cusp of it every day, their whole business is around it. I I think that that i those roles are so important right now to get us through this time of ag advocacy fatigue. So thank you for for keeping us informed and and everyone listening should sign up for a subscription to the the new back in print field and stream magazine are you guys calling it a magazine still or is it more of a journal or Travis (01:23:00.898) Yeah, we'll call it a journal. Yeah. the Journal. but yeah, you can subscribe on the website. It's, it's pretty easy to navigate too. And yeah, it's, it's awesome. And I look forward to getting it in the mail when it comes. It's, it's cool. It takes you back to those old, those old Fieldstream days when I was a kid. Kent Boucher (01:23:04.102) Okay. Yep. Nicolas Lirio (01:23:06.645) That's awesome. Kent Boucher (01:23:21.778) Yeah, well I'm getting I'm I'm I'm getting a fireplace. I have a fireplace in my old farmhouse, but I had I had to jump through some hoops with insurance to be able to put a wood stove in there. And I'm getting that installed this summer. So I look forward to this winter having a fire going and flipping through a field and stream. not to like fully heat my house on it, no. Nicolas Lirio (01:23:21.951) Man. Travis (01:23:29.272) Cool. Travis (01:23:40.235) Yeah. Nicolas Lirio (01:23:42.315) Do you have sustainable tree growth? Kent Boucher (01:23:50.44) But I have enough I have enough Emerald Ashbore fallout and everybody else's you know, the last five years of everyone's ho homeowners insurance tripling. I have enough of those trees that have fallen on people's houses and been dumped off at my place to Nicolas Lirio (01:24:07.133) man. Travis (01:24:07.327) in. Nicolas Lirio (01:24:10.367) You need to start coming to the farm and cutting up some of those trees we've been burning. Kent Boucher (01:24:13.532) Yeah, I well, there are rules about moving firewood across county lines, Nicholas. I'd have to I'd have to make sure that I Nicolas Lirio (01:24:18.859) I knew state lines was a thing. I did not know county lines was a thing. We should probably stop that part of the conversation right here. Riley, get turn around. man, hey, yeah, guys, Travis Hall, Instagram, great follow. It's beautiful. It's well written. It's a it's a gr you're you're a great follow on Instagram. I enjoy it. Yeah. Kent Boucher (01:24:23.774) Yeah, I think it is, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is that Riley pulling up with a load of firewood? I gotta go no shit. Well th yeah. Well well thanks a ton though, Travis. This this has been great. Travis (01:24:40.75) Yeah, thank you. Travis (01:24:47.15) Thanks, Nick. I appreciate that. Yeah. I appreciate you guys having me on. I this has been awesome just to sit down and talk shop with y'all. Nicolas Lirio (01:24:48.617) Absolutely. Kent Boucher (01:24:54.202) Absolutely. Absolutely. Nicolas Lirio (01:24:54.367) Yeah. We appreciate it. All right, everyone. It takes it takes all of us. You know why 'cause conservation it happens just one mind at a time.