Ep. 326 How to Start Farming as a Young Farmer and the Nuts and Bolts of the Farm Crisis
Chase Brown, a 6th generation farmer in Illinois, joins us to discuss billionaires that gobble up land, farm organizations that aren't benefitting farmers, and how he would start farming if he was a new farmer today.
We deeply enjoyed our conversation with him. He is an advocate for change in the agriculture economy and culture, and he had great thoughts about how to bring that change.
Check out this episode of the Prairie Farm Podcast to find out more!
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Chase Brown (00:00.046)
Okay, this is Chase Brown, sixth generation Illinois farmer, and this is the Prairie Farm Podcast.
I'm Mark Kenyon. I'm Dr. Julie Meachin. I'm Steve Hanson. I'm
My name is Jeremy French. Laura Walter.
Karl Hochspiering, owner of Hoxie Native Seeds, and this is the Prairie Farm Podcast. This is Hal Herring, Backcountry Hunters and Anglers Podcast. Valerie VanCotten, State Historical Society of Iowa. Dr. Matt Helmer, Iowa State University. My name is Kyle Laubarger with the Native Habitat Project. I'm Jud McCullum, I appeared out of the wilderness, and this is the Prairie Farm Podcast.
Gips lie, I owe a white tail.
Chase Brown (00:38.986)
Welcome to the Prairie Farm Podcast.
Chase, I like you to explain to me what a professional business meeting goer is.
So yeah, we were just in the office there talking and I feel like some of our farmers sometimes are we call them professional meeting-goers you see them at every every commodity organization meeting every Agronomy field day Sometimes I scratch my head and wonder who's driving the semi at home, you know, who's hauling the grain who's feeding the cows? So yeah, it was
Professional meeting goers sometimes we give a title to some folks.
All right, so before people write this guy off, I got to let you know he called out of the blue several months ago, didn't ask to be on the pod, nothing like that. Just wanted to chat, talk about seed stuff. And I was listening to him talk and I was like, this guy's got to be on the pod because you're a sixth generation. You've got a lot of history and insight into farming. You think differently about it. You go against culture, but at the same time, you're trying to make a living. I would not consider you a greedy guy, but just working in business with you, you've been.
Nicolas Lirio (01:52.908)
you're very like, hey, I wanna make a profit and I want you to make a profit, know, very fair, doesn't feel like, you know, we're wrangling each other's throats for a nickel. And so I have a lot of respect for you and I just love, every time we talk, we would just talk for way too long, you know, and we're like, this guy's gotta be on the pod. So for real, everyone, hang on, this guy's got great thoughts to share. But I wanna start with, you've been to a lot of those,
meetings for whatever organization, just, you know, meetings for farmers. And before we move on, Aaron, Aaron Van Wyk says sometimes farmers himself included go to those meetings because it gives them a break from work because the boss is too rough on him or doesn't give them a day off. Well, he's the boss. He's like, look, it gives me an excuse to not work for a day and I get to learn a little bit of speed.
Yeah, right.
Kent Boucher (02:45.666)
Give me a mic. Did you look at that? my goodness. We should read it here on the podcast. It's that good. I screen. I screen. I screen shoted a conversation between Aaron and myself this morning.
And then I was talking to Ken while driving and Ken was like pull pull it up right now I was like dude driving a 60 mile
I would never, I would never encourage that behavior.
Also, hit a deer hit me last night and I'm suffering the ramifications from it. All right. Cow is ready for the, you said cows ready for the cold. Aaron said, I'll spend today taking out extra feed, bedding and covering water takes after that. Not much can be done. Worst thing I have to do is load a steer for the locker during a cold snap. man, we can send Nick to help you load.
sent the Asian cowboy over might be some minute steak in it for him. And I think this is a play on the fact that I really want Kent to and Riley to to get on board with having livestock on the farm and they just they aren't here for it.
Kent Boucher (03:53.346)
Yeah, something about the part where Nick does none of the work and we do all of the work.
It's the same thing when I when when chase and I hammered out a deal with with with seed Riley's the one who mixed it and I to be fair. I did my time. I did my time of the mixing so all right so Professional meeting you've been to a lot of those meetings. I'm curious when you go to the meetings Genuine question when are they helpful and when are they not helpful? Like what what could you possibly gain as a community member or a farmer learning these things?
You know, I think one of the biggest problems, yeah, there are certainly those meetings where you learn something. They're good, right? And, you know, especially like an agronomy field day where we're learning practices to take back to the farm. But my struggle is, you know, I feel like a lot of times we think we're doing something for the betterment of our fellow farmers in agriculture.
And really we're just spinning our wheels. You know, we just aren't getting anywhere. We aren't changing. I feel like we just kind of re circulate the same thoughts and ideas and we don't ever actually accomplish anything. Why? You know, I old order, the old guard, you know, I I've seen in some of these organizations, they get some young people in there and, the older ones that at the top of the organization aren't, aren't
receptive, willing to the new ideas and the new folks just get burned out. If I feel like I can't make change and we aren't gonna actually accomplish something, my time's better served elsewhere. I got a kid at home or a wife at home or, you know.
Kent Boucher (05:37.832)
That's a really good point and we see that in the not always but it's definitely present in the conservation community You know where you can complain about the same old problems, but no one ever has any kind of solution to offer It's just a way to bond. You know one of the classic things I was a teacher for eight years so I can make fun of teachers for a little bit The teachers lounge can be one of the most negative places on the planet right and I used to wonder
while I participated in that at times, I used to wonder, why do we do this? Why do we sit around here and complain about, you know, a particular student or a school policy or a parent or, you know, the outcome of a basketball game the night before or an administrator? Why do we do that every day? It's some kind of the lunch, the amount of time everyone's in there is about 25 minutes.
for 23 of those minutes, it's just negative every single day. And it's like, well, it's a profession where we are all hired, especially I was at the high school level, you're hired to be a subject matter expert. So my interests as a biology teacher are gonna be in this category. Whereas somebody who is hired to be a PE teacher was hired to set up cones. I'm just kidding, kind of. A Spanish teacher has,
has interest in different culture, an English teacher in literature, know, on and on. So we're kind of hired based on our personal interests, which don't overlap all that much. So what is the one thing we have in common? Something to complain about.
sucky the weather is.
Chase Brown (07:26.21)
Do you think it's almost like the victim mentality? It's easier to play the victim than just put our nose down and go get after it.
Yeah, and almost every one of those types, whether it's a conservation organization, whether it's a big ag, you know, conference, whether it's a, a, you know, a pheasants forever banquet, whatever it can be, you know, not ding in any of those organizations specifically, but they're all trying to solve problems. Right. And, and when there's a problem at hand, I think it can lend itself to be like, yep, we, know, water quality is still so terrible.
sorry.
Nicolas Lirio (08:03.286)
needs to do something about this.
somebody and and There is enough value that has been created within our economy here in the United States to where we can financially support people to do nothing you know to make a career out of out of Getting nothing accomplished, but just going you know from one conference to the next to the next and if it's a nonprofit there they got enough
donors that are feeding their staff to keep them going from conference to conference, but never actually getting anything accomplished. And I'm not saying that to call anyone out specifically, and I don't think you are either, Chase, but I think it is something, I try to keep that in mind. Let me virtue-sync going for a little bit. I try to keep that in mind when I'm at these conferences. I can't just be here to be complaining like I'm in the teacher's lounge. We need to be saying, yeah, but look at this area where there's been positive change. How can we use that to springboard us?
on water quality and finally gain some ground on water quality instead of just having, know, whether it be water quality conference 2025 and complaining about this or water quality conference 2035 and complaining about the exact same things, what's going to change in between 2025 and 2030?
I want to jump on that and I've got a question for you Chase.
Nicolas Lirio (09:30.734)
I've been asking myself what problem am I solving? Right? It's kind of the same question. What value am I adding to the world? But what problem am I solving? And what problems do I acknowledge that I can't solve right now because I don't have the resources. I literally don't have the skills maybe, or I'm limited on my time and I have to figure these are the problems I'm going to solve and, the other ones I can talk about, but I think it is important to, if
think about how much time I'm spending talking about problems. They should probably mostly be about the problems that I'm running out fixing. One, because it signals that it.
And to be clear, talking about the problems is part of the step, it's like base, it's the base, it's like, you got a first, yes, have to, what do they say, the first way, no, the first way to fight addiction is to admit that you have one. And it's kind of the first step is, yeah, we got a water quality problem. Okay, how do we go beyond that step?
Acceptance.
Nicolas Lirio (10:25.526)
Well, and so and to that point, nonprofits, we, I mean, we got just got to talk about this nonprofits can be can be the biggest resource suck in our society. They can be.
Especially if they're fighting for I won't mention any but especially if they're fighting for a cause that isn't real That's it's a delusion. Yeah, that's that line somebody else's pocket
Yeah, well, yeah, that's.
But but many nonprofits and so I mean we get asked to give so whether we're speaking for a nonprofit or we're having an education day or they just want to meet with us or you know of course they want money or donations so we I mean we get an email five times a day about something about or you know phone call I just had a meeting with two of the leaders at great outdoor foundation for central Iowa
And they were like, well, this is what we do. This is what we've done since this year. And it was like, obviously they are not a resource suck. And they said, what is the problem? And what am I going to, what are we going to run after? And they knew what they couldn't run after. They knew that, eh, that's kind of outside of our realm. I have a lot of respect for go getters who are willing to admit what's out of their realm, you know, cause if you don't realize it, when you're a young entrepreneur by 35, when you're totally burned out, you start figuring it out. You can't do everything.
Nicolas Lirio (11:46.818)
So I'm curious for you, Chase. I mean, you see issues in the ag system that we've got going on, whether it's different organizations, different mindsets that we have, different systems that we have set up that, you know, and you and I have talked about these. Which one do you feel like you're having the biggest impact on to change? Cause obviously we can't just go, you can't buy yourself, just go and change everything.
You know, I think I've got a cover crop seed business. Yeah. And just brown seed sales, real original.
Dude, the last name Brown is like a life hack. It's an awesome last name.
So yeah, I started that 10, 11 years ago. I feel like I'm making some change. I don't know if guys are willing to adopt some of those conservation practices necessarily, but we've at least got them to the table. And I think as I see the downturn in the ag economy, they're even looking a little closer.
I feel like people would run away from conservation practices with the downturn in the economy. Also, Ken, I need you to scoot closer to me just a little bit because I think your mic thing's right in front of camera.
Chase Brown (13:00.694)
I think, I don't know if they're turning away, they're looking at it, because everyone's looking at every dollar, you know, and how can we, but it's unique, you know, or a little strange. I can have those conversations with someone that, hey, instead of having half a million dollars or a million dollars worth of tillage equipment and a tractor, what about no tilling your beans? there's a yield drag. Okay. Have we looked at net dollars?
At the end of the year, which one was more profitable? So, you know, in my business, we've gotten guys to maybe come to the table a little bit to look into some other practices and break the norms. Always wish change was a little bigger, you know? I don't know if we're making huge end roads by any means, but we're trying at least.
You know, I actually I was just in the middle of making a video this week because I was driving a tractor from one place to another and you just see how much topsoil is lost on the snow. It's obvious on the snow. Well, and then you look where fields were tilled. Why? You would know this, but why do people till their fields in the fall? What are they? What?
We call it recreational tillage We don't It were bored it was a fast harvest because we were extremely dry and I I don't know what to do with my hands. I don't know what to do with myself I'm gonna go drive a tractor Because what I found if you ask some of those guys and I say all the time we've lost our why in agriculture
I-
Chase Brown (14:39.566)
We farm a little organic, some organic acres and I really enjoy it because that's farming. It makes you ask that why, why do I have this weed? Why do I have this pest? How can I change my practice to avoid that? We've lost that why because let's face it, since Roundup, GMOs, farming's gotten pretty easy. Technology's helped us.
it's hard to screw it up. We have a weed, we make a phone call, it gets sprayed, the weed dies. We have a pest, we make a phone call, we use a different trait, it dies. So we've lost that. Why in agriculture, when you ask some of those guys, why are you tilling that in the fall? Why do you, well, we have to. But why? What are you, they can't answer it, you know?
Warms up the soil. Well, what about waiting two extra days in the spring? Yeah. You know, you have a high speed planner that can plant your entire crop in 10 days.
You don't have the constraints of farming from the 50s.
Right, everything's so fast, much technology has gotten rid of a lot of those problems that I just wish more folks would step back and say, ask the question, why? And I feel like we've really lost that. And there's farmers that are very, very, very good at what they do. But there's a lot of us that make a phone call and the problem disappears. And we don't really know why we had that problem.
Nicolas Lirio (16:16.454)
And the difficulty of farming, how much of it is agronomy problem solving with the land and how much of it is the finance figuring out where you're going to get land and you know, the financing behind making your mortgage payments or your equipment payments? When do I buy new equipment? When do I lease it?
You know, I heard, I don't even remember where I heard it. There's a lot of very good farmers out there, right, that are incredibly good at raising a crop, working on machinery. And, you know, there's 10 % of them that are incredible business people, you know, and I see it my business, you know, guys that have no idea where they're at financially, where their break evens are.
I call it the plant and pray. We pray at the end of the year there's enough money when we harvest a crop that we made some profit and paid the bills and we can farm again next year. Nicholas, I don't think enough guys do the business side of it. And it's big business anymore. You don't have to farm very many acres to have a million dollar operating note in today's day and age. When seed corn's $300 a bag, it doesn't take very many acres.
fertility and seed and equipment to be a multi-million dollar operation.
Well, I also don't understand how how can you have 3000 acres? I don't know. I'm not talking about you. I don't know how many acres you have. How how can you have 3000 acres and afford to lose $70 an acre? You can't have an in town job that would cover.
Chase Brown (17:50.99)
No, I saw that the other day someone was talking about they were going to town to get a job, you know, because the farm was going to fall short. And I'm thinking, man, what are they going to make 20, 25,000 a year? mean, what we're losing in ag this year, looking to lose. That's that's a drop in the bucket. You know, it's not even going to be close.
It occupies so much of their time and mental space that they could actually be working on solving the bigger financial shortfall.
But the interesting thing in our area locally, if a piece of ground came up for rent, there would be a line down the road to try renting it for a loss. And I don't understand it. I don't think they have any silver bullet that we don't. And we can't make it work, yet they'll use the equity from either owned property, family-owned ground.
cash in the bank or they're letting some of those better leases Just just to say we farm more I
I feel like it's just people don't and I've talked to a lot of bankers about this every time I talk to a banker I hey, do you do any ag lending? I'm curious. I have a list of questions one of them who makes it who wins and and they have one of two answers one on really good years They pay taxes basically they don't spend it all on new equipment, right and and and farmers love getting out of taxes if they can not illegally, but you know what I mean and and
Nicolas Lirio (19:24.992)
And by farmers, mean humans. We all like getting out of touch. But the second thing is they can use Microsoft Excel. They know how to punch in the numbers to make sure they come out on the other end. I feel like a lot of people go, well, if I'm losing a penny per acre at a thousand acres, it'll be better if I have 1200 acres. Like the numbers will start making more sense.
And there's some truth to that. you've got a John Deere tractor, you have a lease on, you're amortizing it over all of your acres, then you could probably, you know, that'd probably be, there's some math to it, but also I'm like not at $370 an acre.
Shouldn't every acre be able to stand on its own? Yeah, you know, I don't understand subsidizing this one, you know with a different acre subsidizing it, just to say I farm it, you know, I'm bigger than that guy.
Much of it is just the optimism of times are going to change and all of sudden what I'm growing is going to 2X in its sale value.
I hear that. hear guys say, well, we got to get it rented, right? It won't come available very often. If I get the opportunity to rent it, we're going to rent it knowing we'll lose money for two, three years. And when things turn around, we're going to be sitting perfect. The problem with that is, is these landowners aren't dumb. They know what rents are, and you don't ever catch up, right? So when things get good, guess what? The rent's going up too.
Nicolas Lirio (20:57.735)
landlords the inputs any kind of them they're not dumb they know
That margin stays is your piece of the pie isn't gonna get any bigger you might get one over on someone but but By and large boy, it's
You think we're on the verge of a farmer strike? Not like this year or next, but if you get three, four years like this and family after family after family starts losing their land.
What do you mean in terms of a farmer strike?
doesn't have to be a strike against either where they sell it or who they buy stuff from to put into the ground.
Kent Boucher (21:29.87)
Right. That just hasn't been the model. I it's been a it's been a slow. It's been a slow burn since the late 70s. Right. Well, well, no, just that the the model hasn't been me. I'm really mad that I got to sell my land. The model has been I guess I got to sell my land and it just consolidates more and more and more. And I I really think that's where we're heading is, you know, this this.
I'm talking about like a frog boiled in water slow.
Kent Boucher (21:59.278)
eventual autonomous equipment and corporations are owning the farmland as opposed to families are owning the farmland. And you might have, I suppose, one silver lining in all of that is maybe more of the people that are still living in those communities, whatever is left of them, will be able to return to the farm, you know,
as mechanics and wherever human labor is still needed and so they can work on the farm that is owned by a corporation. I think that's, I mean you can only play the game at a loss for so long before you got to sell out. That has proven to be the way farming worked for a long
That's Westerners. We don't, you know, people from Boston, they fight back. They'll dump your tea into the ocean. You know what I mean? But I mean, just culturally you go visit Boston. You'll be like, man, everyone here is so rude. They're so feisty in it. And it's just totally different culture. We are relaxed. We're going to, if our neighbor does something we don't like, won't, but I'll use it.
Also, I mean, I was talking about the NFO yesterday with Steve DeYoung, who's been on this podcast before. Flipper, you might remember him as Flipper. Long time friend of Carol's. And he was talking about the National Farmers Organization and they would do the milk dumpings and they'd slaughter a bunch of hogs and just bury them in a pit. Ways to try and increase demand by shortening supply.
But so I think there's been elements of a strike in the past. But even if there was one, what's it going to change?
Chase Brown (23:50.318)
Well, I don't see it happening too from the standpoint that the banks have us or are holding us. The processors are holding us. The fertilizer company has financed us for seven, eight months and they're wanting paid. And it's really tough for a farmer, you know, the farmers of the 70s, you know, 60s, 70s.
They had, mom had some egg money in the back room hidden in a, in a Mason jar. Well, now everyone's got a grip on that farmer, whether it be the seed company, the fertilizer company, the bank, you know, and by nature, farmers are pretty independent too. You know, I, I'm, I'm not going to go on that strike. got to have, you know, I got a million dollars at the banks. One paid off by the end of the year. I got to sell some grain.
you know, whether I like it or not, whether I like the price, I got to turn loose of it because you're going to call that note in.
That's probably true. We're probably not, we're not near that.
We don't have level and there's not there's there isn't any leverage for a strike. That's I think that's the real problem. Oh, yeah, somebody somebody somebody can buy out if you're if you're beholden to the bank. I mean, what are you going to do? The bank's going to eventually show up with a sheriff and you're not farming there anymore. And so there's no for a strike to work. You got to have leverage. And I just don't think farmers, very many farmers, I'm sure some do. We've got everything paid off. You know, they could they could probably participate in some level of
Nicolas Lirio (24:58.503)
Big companies could just come in, buy the land.
Kent Boucher (25:21.518)
pushback but but I don't think most farmers
I think in a sense, know, dry fertilizer has gotten just out of sight in terms of cost, you know, and you talk to anyone in our area and just about everyone is cutting back.
Okay, I just released a episode on this gubernatorial candidate, Zach Lane, talked about it, got roasted in the comments because he was saying people aren't talking about tariffs, they're talking about input prices. And then everyone in the comments said the input prices are higher because of the tariffs, because I'm pretty sure a lot of the fertilizer stuff comes from Canada, but my understanding was that there's only like two fertilizer companies left and they're kind of dictating the price. Do you know?
Do you have any insight as to which one is causing price more?
I don't know. No, I don't. I can't comment on that. But I'm just seeing guys are in a sense, it's kind of a strike. You're just too expensive. We aren't going to use them. Yeah, we can't afford to. Yeah, the market has said that we cannot afford to use your product period.
Kent Boucher (26:09.178)
at risk of getting roasted in the car.
Kent Boucher (26:24.012)
Yeah. of a boycott or... market is dictated.
Nicolas Lirio (26:31.874)
I wonder if manure now is able to come back forward and people are able to use that more.
So we use some manure on the organic. We purchased turkey and chicken litter as a nitrogen source on the organic. And I've had that thought, OK, let's use this on the conventional ground, too. The guys that have the manure are either using it themselves or they know what they have. They know where the dry fertilizer is at and it's priced right in there.
That's a big part of the math for making confined hog operations work, Is the not so much selling the hogs, but selling the hog manure or using it themselves, applying it to their own acres.
Yeah.
And when you know when my dad was raising hogs, know 70s and 80s and early 90s it you know He says the manure ought to be the great, know ought to be the extra that ought to be your bonus for doing a good job raising them now we have to factor in the manure as part of the payoff right, you know, you know and
Nicolas Lirio (27:30.306)
That's that's it. I'm curious. mean, obviously you don't know everybody's finances and I'm sure they're not sharing it with you. But just from roundtown what you're hearing, what percentage of farmers do you think in Illinois or area in Illinois own land outright and aren't stressing a bit about. And I would say I would say medium to small to take out those giant landowners go to you guys area in Illinois because the CSR are so high. But.
that-
Chase Brown (27:57.87)
The there's those multi-generational farms that own a good chunk and they've got enough equity behind them that the banker isn't breathing down their neck. And I think they've got another year or two at today's prices and they aren't happy about it, but they aren't sweating. But I think that's probably a pretty small percentage, 25 % of those guys maybe.
There's a good chunk out there, you know, there's 25 % I heard a story yesterday two young farmers their banker just said we aren't gonna loan to you at these levels You're gonna have to give up some of this cash rent. They don't have any equity behind them. They're They're 10 years into farming. They haven't purchased a farm or if they have they they haven't built any equity in it They got high equipment costs and the bank is just Clamping down on on the limits are willing to loan to them
I think we're another year out. think in another year if things don't turn around it then guys are gonna be going this was this was worse than we thought
Interesting. yeah. Sorry.
No, I mean, what do you think changes? That's what I always think about here is it's easy to buy into. And we do that too with the native seed market, right? I I think this species, it's going to come back around. People are going to really want it. It's easy to talk yourself into the optimism of better times ahead. But when you really are honest, give an intellectually honest assessment of the situation.
Kent Boucher (29:40.15)
what is going to change that's going to all of a sudden result in a business boom for corn and bean farmers? I mean, I guess it kind of happened with the beef industry. Essentially supply has just been plummeting for so long that eventually we found where the point is where people really want beef and they're willing to pay for it. So I mean,
But it's easy to see an old pasture go on gray. It's easier to envision an old pasture going on grays. It's not easier, or it's not easy to imagine fallow corn and bean fields. And so if it is going to get better between this year and next year, significantly better, to wash away the problems of this past year, what on earth would be the change?
We we flat over produce in this country. We're way too good at what we do, right? So we got to figure out a home for the grain or we need a massive massive weather event a 2012 level drought and cut all of our production in half To just burn we have to get rid of Grain and I don't know terrible
We'll have to ask for that. need, you know what we need? We need another derecho that wipes out 40 % of Iowa's corn crop.
Our, we talked to the insurance guy the other day, crop insurance, he said we want to drought everywhere but here, know, selfishly.
Kent Boucher (31:16.62)
I mean, what a broken system.
We're too good.
I would I would challenge you on that because if. If we get rid of a bunch of the yield, right? Let's say we go through a drought. We get rid of a bunch of the yield price. So the price doubles, but the yield goes down by half. Farmer still only makes the same amount of money at the end of the year, and now they're they still have the same inputs that they're having to pay for. So you know, and they're so I just don't know that that would fix the farmers. The farmers issue, which.
The more I've like looked into it over the last maybe five years, I'm like, dude, the farmers just get the shaft on it. It is not good. I don't like it one bit. I don't like thinking about it. you know, we've got good friends. They're young people trying to start farming and it's like.
You know what I mean? I think we've lost the diversity. We were riding in the truck there earlier and talking about, when my dad was a kid, they had fertile hatching eggs that they took into town to the local hatchery. They had hogs. They had cattle. They had wheat, corn, beans. Now, in our neighborhood, when I was a kid, there was 10,000 head of hogs in two sections right around my house.
Chase Brown (32:32.534)
Now there isn't any commercial hogs in the county that I can think of. There's five cow herds of any size in the county. We're the only ones that raise wheat, or one of the few, I should say. There's not much wheat produced. There is a nice little organic pocket on the east side of our county, but we've lost all that diversification.
Think of a farmer had 100 cow herd, 100 head cow herd right now. Yeah, the corn and beans aren't making money, but at least mom and I can still live, the cows are paying the grocery bill. The hogs were always the mortgage payment. We don't have that diversity anymore. I think a young person wanting to get started, the commodity.
markets is not the place to be if you're going to want to make it. just you're going to have to find a niche.
Well, let me help break it down for people in the in the 1800s like kind of the beginning of the Industrial Revolution there were these factories across the world that were the idea was that they were multifaceted and they could build a bunch of different kinds of stuff I think they still have them in China. That's all that garbage you see at TAMU that TAMU They can like make a bunch of these little things real quick ship them out for two days and then make a bunch of them well as the industrial
Revolution went along and Henry Ford also was a big proponent of this we figured out we were way more efficient if one factory did one thing one factory does one thing And that makes it more efficient cheaper People can consume more, you know, and so the arguable net negative or net positive But one factory makes one thing the exact same thing happened in farming from the 1950s until now we okay you you do Hawks and you you'll do cows
Nicolas Lirio (34:27.862)
And you, do corn and corn and beans are kind of a, you know, you got to put them together, but it's still just like kind of one product. You make your money on your corn usually and you do your corn and beans and, and then there's some specialty guys that do rye and stuff like that for the cover crop people or, and that diversity creates health. mean, John Ozenbaugh, sorry, Ozenbaugh Prairie Seed Farms, I believe is what it was called, is the first one that I know of in Iowa, Prairie Farm.
in Iowa and he's since retired. He's quite a bit older and he gave me advice one time. He said, you're going to go around chasing what prairie, which prairie species should I grow? Should I pick up new ones? He said, you figure out how to grow something and you grow the heck out of it year after year after year after year. And then you figure out, sometimes you're going to have every year, you're going to have several species that triple in price. You're going to have fields that fail.
you're going to have some species that two other companies figured out how to grow really well. So they plummet in price. And he said, but don't get rid of the species unless you can't figure out how to grow it. And your yield is like, you know, showing to be a hundred dollars an acre. He said, don't get rid of any species and don't add any until you're really sure about it. And you just keep growing the same ones over and over again. You will not predict the future. And that can contest that literally saves us every year we go, holy crap, our yield was way lower on this thing. What are we going to do? How are we going to pay the, you know, the rent's coming to all this stuff. And then
We have a species that the two other major producers in the Midwest, their crop failed and ours was a bumper and it went well. That happens every single year for us. I mean, literally. I'm sure it happens for our competitors. Like this year, our Ohio spider war totally pooped out. There's a guy who grew Ohio spider war. We, the, the, the wholesale price used to be about 175 bucks. Right now it's 300, 350. I mean, you about name your price. And so whoever's growing it,
happens for our competitors too.
Nicolas Lirio (36:22.818)
props to them like whoever whoever got it this year because it rained across a lot of the Midwest right.
Now quick spend all that money so you don't have to pay income tax.
Get the King Ranch Ford pickup. Don't get the work model.
all talk about John Deere, talk about Koch brothers, talk about bear, you talk about, you know, pioneer seeds. Nobody talks about Ford. The amount of farmer's wealth that Ford has is unbelievable. But that diversity saves us. And I am curious.
is the systems, mean, farmers sold all the equipment they could use to harvest and plant those things. A lot of us don't even know how to do some of those things anymore.
Chase Brown (37:10.478)
I think This will get some nasty comments probably I'm here for it Farming has been easy, know And I've said that to my dad and uncle and and boy They're quick to hop up out of their chair and wag a finger and say we live through the 80s You don't have any idea, you know boy. Yeah, they aren't quite that harsh but you know farming has been relatively easy and Profitable I shouldn't say easy but profitable
And made it where I don't have to go milk cows 365 days a year. I don't have to feed hogs 365 days a year. You know, I I'm thinking, man, when I get home, I got to get some hay fed because it's going to be five degrees tomorrow. And that tractor isn't going to want to start. And, you know, Christmas morning, I've driven past the neighbors with the loader tractor feeding cows and they're, they're sitting in the warm house opening presents, you know, and the cows get fed first at our place. So.
You know, it's, we've lost that diversity because it's been kind of easy, you know? No one wants to, no one wants to bail hay.
I think a big part of it is, farmers didn't realize the good that they had in that old way of doing it, not to diminish the incredible hardship that it, I mean, just the challenge, difficulty and uncertainty that existed in that more diversified model of farming. You know, like you said, every morning you had to get up and milk. You know, we just celebrated my grandfather's birthday, just turned 89 this last weekend. I said, what was it like?
on your birthday when you're a kid, did you still have to do your chores in the morning or did your dad give you the day off? So, oh no, still had to do chores. You had to do chores every day, Kent. And so that is for sure. You know, people hear that and I'm going to call out the boomers a little bit because they got a little taste of that when they were kids and they didn't like doing it. a popular message when I was growing up and I'm like a mid millennial, you know, I was born in 89.
Kent Boucher (39:19.15)
A popular message to my generation was whatever you do, you don't want to work outside and you don't want to work with your back. You want a white collar job basically. You're going to college, right? And the idea was milking cows on your birthday, what could be worse? Going and feeding cows on Christmas morning before your opening gifts, what could be worse?
College, yep.
70 pounds later.
Kent Boucher (39:49.21)
And I think farmers didn't realize that, well, wait a minute here. This is the original work from home job. I'm eating breakfast, lunch, and dinner with my family every day of the week. If I'm sick, yeah, I still got to go do my work. But I can go out, grind through my chores, and go lay in my bed until I got to go chore in the evening. Whereas if now, if you don't get a sick day, you just show up miserable all day.
you know, just the flexibility. Yeah, I know farmers don't get a day off in that era, right? But there was flexibility in their schedule. You know, you talk about five o'clock Jack all the time, how he would, he was a neighbor in this area who would drive around throughout the afternoon and stop at every farm. And he had a hard time keeping it between the lines by the time he past his third farm. But he would, you know, hang out with.
every farmer in the area for, you know, half hour, an hour. And that shows that there is flexibility when you control your own schedule. Like you're not responding to a boss. You're not, you're not, you're not.
famous phrase you I work 80 so I don't have to work 40
Yeah, right. Absolutely. And you're doing something that truly adds value to your community. A lot of people, can't say that. It's a hard reality.
Chase Brown (41:11.982)
I find more pride, like my wife goes to work, she loves her job, she loves who she works with and stuff, but she comes home and she leaves that there. And there isn't really that sense of pride where I open the shed doors and I walk into forth cutting alfalfa sitting on a rack wagon and that smell hits you and it's a sense of pride or unloading a load of fat hogs was one of my dad's biggest enjoyments.
He'd back up the sale bar and open the back of the truck up and 20 fat hogs. What a sense of accomplishment and pride.
Yep. And that value got replaced by vacation when you want it, by the off season, by opening presents on Christmas morning without feeding cows, by all these other things that the people that they went to church with had. And I think if the message of contentment could have been preached more as far as
Hey, yes, those are big advantages that people that don't have to feed cows in the morning have. But you do get all of these things. the kind of, I mean, what do half the people that live, maybe not in like, you know, our huge cities in America, in the kind of cities around here, I bet you at least half of them wish they could be living out in the country on a farm. The value of land.
is just something that is just kind of naturally in us, you know?
Chase Brown (42:50.502)
I had a college professor, I'll never forget, he says, if you don't return to the fam, if you want to farm, when you graduate here, you get back to the farm right now. He says, four years. He says, if you don't return to the farm within four years of graduating, you'll never come back. He says, because you get used to that vacation time and the money, right? So in farming, we're cash poor and got a lot of equity.
You know, you get married, the spouse doesn't understand the farming community, doesn't understand the hours, doesn't understand it. You get used to the vacation and the regular paycheck. yeah, I'm not, why would I want to come back to that?
Yeah, all that. Yeah. And it's not to say that those aren't big advantages. I just think that it's not that one one, you know, we'll say city folk versus country folk. One of them doesn't have the advantage over the other. They have different advantages and different disadvantages. And I guess what what my argument is is that. Yes, the disadvantages were great, but so were the advantages. yeah, and and I think a lot of that generation that left.
the old way of farming was sold on the disadvantages more than they were sold on the advantages. And I think that's kind of why we are not the only reason, of course, the high interest rates coming out of the 70s into what do they hit? Like 22%, I think, was some of the highest interest rates for operating notes. if you put up a new hog barn at the wrong time, all of that was a big part of it as well, of course, the changing global economy. Get big or get out.
But also I think people didn't realize what they were leaving. And I think now us having the value of hindsight and the value of not being able to have what was had, it's easy for us to look at it with rose colored glass because we don't have to wake up on our birthday and milk cows. However, maybe we would like to. Right.
Nicolas Lirio (44:56.12)
This is a pretty raw question. Grew up at very small rural school. Had a lot of friends at other small rural schools. think just like Paul Harvey painted a rosy picture of farming and, and, you know, farm bureau does today in advertisements in the super bowl. I think we can kind of do that. Here's my question about that. Just to shatter the rose colored glasses a little bit.
I would like to think that Kent and I are decent guys and that we attract decent guys. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and so our friends that are farmers, decent people. And part of how I gauge that is like, obviously how do you treat your family? Are you connecting with your community in a way that gives back to some degree? You know, these things that I think are important and man,
Don't you signal and come here.
Nicolas Lirio (45:52.536)
There are a lot of people at my school and their parents were farmers and they own land and their parents sucked bad, like sucked so bad that I had principals asking me like, Hey, can you keep an eye on this student and let me know if you think anything weird is going on? You know what I mean? Or, or yeah, or, or not even physically abusive, but maybe
You mean like it was an abusive relationship?
Kent Boucher (46:17.57)
They too hard on him kind of thing
Yeah, or even victim mentality. The world's against me and they pass down this victim mentality that sets up their kid for a loss in life, you know, to, to not amount to anything, even though their kid was perfectly talented and could have done whatever they wanted. And that I'm not thinking of one or two. I could get countless. could think of, and I know people and stories and stuff like that. And I think part of that, I mean, humans get to make their own decisions. think part of that
I think farmers percentage wise are probably better than like coal miners, not saying against anything as coal miners as a demographic, but percentage of wise, like if you look at people who came from, if their grandpa was a coal miner, they'd be like, yeah, they used to beat the piss out of my dad. You know what I mean? They're just rough people and cause a lot of rough things. I wonder if the hardship from farming caused a lot of negative internal worlds, as I like to say, and that spread.
And so people went when they finally met people that were at white collar jobs like, you don't scream at me when I do something wrong. You know what I mean? And we can kind of I mean, my dad yelled at me when I did stupid stuff. You know what mean? And I but there's a there's a line there and I'm glad he's
Basically you're talking about like when everyone is shocked when a UFC fighter finds out the guy slapped his girlfriend Or beat his kid. It's like, wait a minute. This guy gets paid millions of dollars to crush people's eyesight There's a filtering there
Nicolas Lirio (47:42.158)
Exactly. We pay with pigs and cows and deal with some of the dirtiest work in the world. And then and, you know, and then it's like, well, sometimes they can be kind of drain on society. You know, so what I I'm curious. I see that less it doesn't happen in that regard. Usually if a farmer's dirtbag, they're stealing land, you know, or like, you know, just greedy. You know, that's kind of how you see it come about. But
I don't know. What do you guys think about that? was thinking about that the other day when I was in a podcast. A little bit. And I think that some of that pain in the farmer's internal worlds probably came from some of the hardship they went through. mean, they went through hardship for generations.
There's a filtering that goes on.
Chase Brown (48:29.622)
I think, you know, those kids sitting at the dinner table listening to mom and dad talk about the financial hardships, you know, how tough things are. They see dad come in at nine o'clock at night covered in grease and oil, and he's had a bad day because nothing wants to run. And I think there is that certain level of I don't want this, you know.
I would say that's a better case in a
I never learned to play the piano. I had an older sister that took piano lessons. Yeah. And then when, I listened to her scream every time she had to go practice the piano and my parents came to me, Ken, you know, you're getting about old enough now. Would you like to learn to play the piano? No, no, I would not.
Well, but so that's not a terrible one. A worst case scenario is the dad's grumpy. So he comes home and he drinks too much and and they weren't number one. But when I looked up alcoholism in in trades, farmers, it wasn't at the bottom of the list.
Well, suicide, know, I heard it was number one for work related.
Kent Boucher (49:30.294)
believe it's number one, isn't it? Yeah.
Nicolas Lirio (49:34.984)
I think. Because of yeah, yeah and so. You know there's some serious pain that you know isn't necessarily dealt with.
Right, yeah, that's what I mean,
Chase Brown (49:43.854)
And I think some of it too is a multi-generational, farming is a farmer's identity. It's all they do. A lifestyle, it's their identity and it is so hard for so many farmers to let go and hand it to the next generation. And it's mine until I'm not here anymore. And then it can be your problem type thing. And so,
It's lifestyle.
Chase Brown (50:13.442)
I think that can affect a lot of youth wanting to come back because it's this while you're here, it's still mine and you're going to do what I say until it's not mine anymore. And they, they're like, don't, I don't want to come be dad's employee until I'm 40 or, you know, I hear stories all the time. dies in the 50 or 60 year old son has never written a fertilizer check in his entire life. He's never marketed a bushel of grain because
Mom and dad still held the purse strings because it's still our farm and it will be our farm until it's not, you know, and then you can figure out whatever you want to do with it. What a disservice to the next generation. know, if, if we want young people to come back and be involved in agriculture, but you know, we ought to be able to sit down at the table and have an adult conversation and say, I'm going to farm until X here's a 10 year plan.
and then you're gonna take over and we're gonna do this incrementally and we're gonna figure this out. And you're gonna be part of the operation instead of the boss-employee relationship. I think so many people, you'll even see it where they come back to the farm and five years in they're like, forget this, I'm going to town, I'm gonna go work for the fertilizer plant because if I'm not gonna have any stake in the game, why am I here beating my head against the wall?
Or they become or they're pretty sharp. They got they got sent to college. They become an engineer for John Deere or Vermeer or something. And then when their dad passed and yeah, maybe they hauled a grain cart, you know, every fall or something like that. But dad passes away at seventy five and and sons 50. Well, I'm almost done career here. Vermeer, why would I? Right. would I go back to the farm and by the way, Vermeer pays.
That right there is I think one of the most unspoken realities of farm transition problems is, and it's right along with what you're saying, Chase, is the cold dead hands mentality and the expectation that, someday this is all gonna be yours. And everyone doesn't realize how fast time is passing before someday comes. And when...
Kent Boucher (52:29.832)
by the time somebody who's been working like Nicholas has said, an off-farm career, not just a job, but a career, by the time someday arrives, they're 15 years from retiring with a pretty good pension or a pretty good 401k, and it would be financial suicide to step away from it right now. would, they're, we all want to, you know, like,
I'm putting away money for retirement, but Carol taught me, if you like what you're doing, do it as long as you can. So there's that aspect, but I don't know that I'm not gonna fall off the ladder in the back room and break both my legs or something.
And we started the podcast talking about just the sheer cost of what it takes to farm anymore. So yeah, I'm 15 years from retirement at my very good stable job with six weeks of vacation and a 401k and everything. And now you want me to buy out my siblings a million and a half dollars worth of equipment and don't you? Inheritance tax.
You have increased the value of the farm while you were working on it for all those years. So yeah, I built up this farm and now I get to buy it from these other stakeholders because I kept it going all this time.
I want to bring this up. There was a really it got really viral. I'm so sorry. Whoever was did this real I cannot remember the account. He said the real boogeyman. He talks about the real boogeyman and farming. You might have I might have sent it to you but he said the real boogeyman he says it's not Bill Gates not these corporations. It's not even the fertilizer company. He's talking about farm culture and I think he understands those are issues but he said the real boogeyman is the 57 year old
Kent Boucher (54:01.23)
doesn't sound familiar.
Nicolas Lirio (54:16.526)
62 year old whose parents just passed away and they say, well, I guess, yeah, we could get $40,000 a year in rent or we get $6 million right now. Why wouldn't we sell it? and the grandson who's begging to farm it could stay in the family. Well, do you have at least 5.9 million? I mean, I'll give you a deal, but 5.9 million, you know, and it's just like, I think what's going on in my puny little brain.
Yeah.
Kent Boucher (54:38.318)
I want at least five.
Nicolas Lirio (54:46.444)
I think we have a huge bubble and people are cashing in on the bubble right now. Someone will be, we'll be caught holding the bag. But in order for us to go back to farming culture, the bubble will have to pop and it will be very painful.
someone's gonna lose some generation is gonna lose big time. I mean we're talking foreclosures and and it'll be probably almost like it would be equally as bad as the 80s but maybe even closer to the Great Depression when that bubble pops because what are they saying now like that land that sold up in northwest Iowa a month ago? You had to
Yeah, you have to you have to farm it for 500 years corn and beans before you net profit on it Yeah, I mean that's if that's not a big bubble ready to burst. I don't know what it is
In less, you know, we see in our area the the billion dollar investors buying that ground, you know, and I guess
develop it but even even for them to farm it I mean yeah but that's
Nicolas Lirio (55:46.968)
putting Band-Aid on cancer. yeah, will they be able to bail you out and buy your land so that you can have the
Well, and what we see is their business people, right? So they want a 2-3 % return. Yeah, especially now that interest rates, you know, why would I buy farm ground at 2 % return when I can put it in different investment that makes 10, you know? So
Right, so they don't want to lose money.
Nicolas Lirio (56:12.974)
Well, yeah, I mean, it is super stable. They make money from it appraising or yeah. You and from appreciating and that that tunes that the music's going to stop.
appreciating.
Kent Boucher (56:24.663)
Exactly that that appreciation increase
is silver lining is going to pop. If it pops, we might actually stand a chance of buying land in our lifetime. You know, that's that's, you know, if land went back down to in our area, really good ground from 17 to eight, eight makes sense on a 30 year mortgage, you can pay $8,000 corn mean, you know, 30 year mortgage or even if someone was desperate to have, you know, hogs and cattle and they had a
in town job, which I think is the most criminal thing of all time. When my wife and I set up a coffee shop and we went to the bank and got a loan, you know what question they didn't ask? how are you going to subsidize this income? What's your other job? No other business does that. Does this business stand alone? And so I think so the boogeyman again, it's the people who are about to inherit all of it. And and I think, you know, it's the
Jen Xers really. And what I mean by boogeyman is they had, it's just starting. It's just starting now where they're starting to inherit it. They have the opportunity to not cash in and protect the way of life because I don't think they understand. go, well, it's not that big a deal. I like my job in town, blah, blah, blah. And let's say they live, let's say they live in a nice little town like, Pella, Pella, Iowa, very nice little town. That's amazing. Nice little town.
You have enough of you guys sell your land because you see a dollar sign, not because you're in financial hardship, you just see a bigger dollar sign. Enough of them sell the land. The land ends up getting farmed, which I think we should talk about this as well. In 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, land's fully farmed by a very large company that uses AI. Your wonderful little town starts shrinking and shrinking and shrinking.
Nicolas Lirio (58:25.504)
If you want to protect Midwestern small town culture, we have to not sell our land because we see dollar signs. There are reasons, very good reasons to sell land, but seeing dollar signs, not not.
Holy
Kent Boucher (58:39.5)
Yeah, it's almost like you could say the number one, based on our conversation, the number one enemy to farming has been discontentment. either saying this isn't good enough or I want more. Both of those things have poisoned rural America.
All right, let's get into it before we close out. automated driving tractors. How long do you think humans are driving vehicles in the field?
It's coming probably quicker than what we think You know, there is some kinks to work out I know someone that tried to run the auger cart with the combine they hit the button The calm the tractor auger cart took the wrong line and ran up over the corn head You know, there is some glitches in technology. We still got
That was an AI
vehicle.
Chase Brown (59:29.694)
It wasn't AI, there was a driver. But he hit the link button to link it, same distance from the combine, same speed, and it grabbed a different line on the GPS and ran him into the combine. So it's coming. I still believe...
sure he was telling the truth. Maybe, I pushed the button.
True, true, I didn't think about that.
Chase Brown (01:00:02.638)
I don't know what happened.
I would have looked my dad in the eyes and been like, yeah, I drove a ride over that. I never would have done that.
I do think in agriculture there is a place for it, right? We can have monitors in the bin. We can do driverless tractors, all that. But we're still a business that you got to stick your nose down in the grain bin and say, ooh, this corn smells a little sweet. I better turn the fans on. That is something that you don't, you learn that, right? You learn that smell. You go out in the field.
And regardless of the sensor on the planner, you pick up that dirt and you say, it's just a little tacky. I think we ought to wait till tomorrow or it'll be ready this afternoon. I think there's a place for it. I think it's great. I think agriculture, there is still great value in boots on the ground and being present and being there.
So taking that concept and let John Deere is seemingly, I imagine, other equipment manufacturers as well. You just see John Deere in the news more often. I don't think Alice Chalmers, do they have any autonomous attract? That's a joke. That's a joke. John Deere's already been testing autonomous equipment, I think, down in South America, right?
Nicolas Lirio (01:01:28.632)
South America, know a guy who tested it here on his farm. Two counties, three counties away from us.
really?
Kent Boucher (01:01:35.566)
So the development's happening. Let's say 50 years from now, 85 % of farms are the tractors and combines. The main equipment is for corn and bean operations, is autonomously operated. Where do you envision people kind of reshuffling back into agricultural work?
If you ask me my biggest fear as a young farmer in the next five ten fifteen twenty years It's it's going to be the same concern labor We cannot get labor the average age of our harvest crew. I love them to death We can't do it without them, but with me included It's like 71 72. Wow, they're retired guys that don't really need the money. They just like getting out and helping out
You know, we have a truck driver that's in his 80s. I don't know who's going to help me. We've looked at the work visas, South Americans, whatever it may be. We've looked into that. There's a lot of neighbors that use those. labor is going to continue to be a problem. So I see AI.
When you see labor, you're just talking for trucking or you talking for, you know, mostly what else.
Mostly operators. Trucking's a big one. Getting a CDL has gotten so hard. I didn't pass a single semi on an 80 that didn't have on the back hiring drivers. So everyone's needing drivers. So unless we have autonomous semis in the next 5, 10 years, I hope so, because I don't know who else is going to drive these.
Nicolas Lirio (01:03:28.27)
They're coming
Nicolas Lirio (01:03:32.152)
think Ken, you might have heard us talk about this. I have this theory 10 years from now, it'll be illegal for you to manually drive your car on the interstate. I think they'll still allow county roads and stuff like that, but you know, if you're a Senator and someone puts a bit, well, one, they give you $20 million and two, they put something in front of you.
Which is illegal. is illegal. No. No. No. No. No.
campaign and their campaign for whatever reason has eight bookings in the Bahamas.
100 more 500 about yeah
Dude, the so you're a senator and they whatever, donate to your campaign. And then they say, hey, here's a bill that will save 40,000 people's lives a year. You've got to sign here. And it takes people's right or not right. What is it? Privilege privilege away from driving on on interstates and major state highways. I don't I don't see any senators not doing that. Being able to brag that you just saved 40,000 lives a year.
Nicolas Lirio (01:04:34.398)
And to be fair, it's a good argument. But I think semis, you know, semis for what percentage they are in the interstate, they're a huge percentage of the deaths just because they're so big, not not their fault. Just statistically, they're huge. And the that'll be self-driving, not having drivers in there. Your cars will be self-driving. I don't even think people will own.
Not that many people will own cars in 30 years. I think it'll be like a train of cars going back and forth. And I live in Knoxville and I want to get to Chicago. just put in the little app, hey, I want to get to Chicago. And a car comes, picks me up, brings me down the interstate, takes me all the way to Iowa City. It says, hey, this is how far this car goes. You jump in another car, and then it pulls you all the way to Iowa City. And if they're constantly flowing back and forth, you might say, hey, I want to pay less money, but they put you in a car with a stranger.
or hey, I want to pay more money and I'm going to be here by myself or I'm going to pay a lot of money because my family and I need to get to a volleyball tournament and we have tons of luggage. I know they have tons of luggage because I used to valet for these things. And and so I think that's kind of where driving is going. Maybe I'm off by the 10 year thing, but like, dude, and and farming specifically, it seems like I will press on the pain point that you're saying, look, there's, know, it's so hard to find God.
I would rather see AI in the equipment operator standpoint, autonomous tractors, combines, that sort of thing, than I would in the agronomy aspect. I think that goes back to the we've lost our why. We're losing our ability to critically think as farmers.
the soil conditions.
Chase Brown (01:06:18.574)
When we put AI and and AI is flat and press of what it can do right you put an ear tag in a cow and it tells you 12 hours earlier than the human eye that it's sick and right and we can doctorate and treat it that's great technology, but It just I think my opinion. It's one more step of us losing that ability to
and reliant self-reliant
We're working ourselves out of a job.
Yeah, exactly exactly
You know what's interesting? The Midwest culture and a lot of the other cultures, like I look around
Nicolas Lirio (01:06:55.746)
You know how much stuff you own? People, they don't own that much stuff. They lease their cars, they got a mortgage, their house on a mortgage. Not only that, but Netflix, you don't buy movies. You don't own the movie. You own the, you're renting the right to watch the movie. And that's great. People love that. You know that video games now, there's this big pushback, because even if you buy a hard copy, it's like you've bought the right to play the video game, not the video game. You don't actually have the right to say like, I own,
this video game, that is just how the world is moving in the direction. so literally our, instead of having an asset equity economy, we are having, especially here in the Midwest, we're having this like get a paycheck, throw it all out and subscription economy, you know, subscriptions are yeah.
One of my problems too with AI is we are losing control, know, the right to repair, you know, argument. Now we are, it's another layer of a farming operation that we are handcuffed to corporate, right? That we don't get to make decisions on our farm. No.
It might be the perfect day to plant, but the server's down.
Yeah, or you want an autonomous tractor, you will pay us X. Well, I can't make any money at that. Well, I guess we aren't going to have it, you know? So it's just another layer of control that we've lost on the farm that now we have another corporation. have Big Brother watching out what's best for us, telling us what's best and what we need.
Kent Boucher (01:08:28.526)
So how do you advise considering all this considering the history that we've talked through today the current status and these future, you know, seemingly obvious progressions that are on the horizon Someone tune it into this. They're 25 years old they they have done what a normal 25 year old has done up to this point and they think they really would like to farm and
Kent Boucher (01:09:02.209)
considering all these things, what would be your advice to that person?
I'm glad you asked that because I was sitting here thinking, I'm like, boy, we sure beat up on agriculture for the last hour here. Like this was pretty negative, you know.
We don't want to just be professional meeting go. So solutions to take.
So I think agriculture farming is still a very, very positive, admirable, glorious job. And there is wonderful, wonderful benefits to it.
Yeah. Can I just say what I think the biggest benefit is? What's that? Purpose. Absolutely. I think there's so many people, and I think that's a big fear with AI, is people fear, you there's all this talk of, you everyone's going to have a universal basic income. You don't need to work. People are afraid of losing the purpose that work provides them. But I think that in reality, there's a lot of work that hasn't provided people purpose for a long time.
Chase Brown (01:09:38.67)
What's that? Yes.
Kent Boucher (01:10:03.884)
Farming still provides that.
But it's, you know, I've said retirement's one of the biggest killers in America because they lose their purpose. And how many old farmers, you know, I've seen them, know, grandpa was in his nineties and he might be sitting on a stool with a sword and pole poking a cow going up the alley, not really helping, but he's out there. He still has that purpose. And that's what, you know, I had friends, they always kept cows at grandpa's place.
He they didn't need cattle there They kept one or two cows to make him go out every morning and feed them know to give him that purpose to get him up and get him moving So absolutely purpose, know, I would tell a young person there is opportunity break the mold of I think you know, one of the most dangerous phrases is this is how we've always done it whether it you know, whether it be organic whether it be livestock whether it be
you know, small scale produce, whether it be native seeds, there is an opportunity in agriculture to still make a living and a good living. And you don't have to beat your head against the wall trying to raise, you know, sub $4 corn with thousand dollar an acre inputs. You know, it just, you don't have to do that. There is a place. And if you want it to work.
Hmm.
Chase Brown (01:11:28.542)
you can figure it out, you know, and it is glorious work and it is a sense of pride, you know, and purpose.
Yeah. Yeah, well said. Well said. think so much of it, too, is is a long line. Chase saying just creativity, you know, fine. I see that all the time. We go to PFI. We have guests on the podcast. We go to, you know, farm demonstration. I think you guys like Matt Hattala, you know, Matt.
Yeah, but Matt's special, man.
You've been literally came from nothing. I don't want to reveal too much of his story. He's a close friend of ours. but a guy who had no arming heritage to, you know, get a good boost up into it. He he's a guy that grew up with no land and.
to see his operation because he wanted some native seed out there and I got there pretty early in the morning and the dude had been it was like 32 degrees 38 degrees something like that the dude had been sleeping in a tent to make sure he was near his hogs because he was like this has to work out for me yeah
Chase Brown (01:12:34.446)
Yeah,
He's created his own market. Now he's gone from trying to find these different markets where he could sell his live weight hogs to, to now he's got as far as we need to get him back on the podcast to get an update. But it's the best that I can understand it. He's raising his hogs. He's got a deal worked out with a local slaughterhouse butcher that then gets his meat into this pipeline that he created with a friend.
to turn it all into salami and has his own salami brand. he created a start to finish.
So market sure. Yeah, really really cool
And it's all just his creativity in finding a way. I'm raising a different product than the confined hog operation. He's pastor raised hogs. Where can I market those? So he created his market. And it's that kind of willpower that not only can make it work, but be incredibly satisfying and fulfilling. But never easy.
Nicolas Lirio (01:13:35.982)
I want. Yeah, and I also want to say like we got to kind of we got to. Oh, this is going to sound worse than it should. We got to throw reasonable out like we go like, well, yeah, but you got to understand it can't really be working 65.
It's all about balance Nicholas, just balance.
You know, I can't really be working 65 hours a week. So we got to make sure this farming thing's reasonable and Matt Atala said reasonable. I'm just gonna make it happen. Whatever. Yeah, right. And yeah, he's he's so great. I've got a question for you. Very practical. I want you to walk me through step by step. You don't live where you're at now. Let's say you live here. Let's say you live in this county, Jasper County, Iowa.
Let's say you, I don't know, you're just pulling weeds at a prairie farm this summer and helping clean seed in the winter. Are we giving them a job?
25 25 years old not married No married no kid married no kid 25 years old no money to your name. No real money You know, maybe a little savings account and your parents didn't farm parents were maybe dad was a blue-collar worker and your your mom worked in office somewhere and So they don't really have any money to back you on much of anything Jasper County, Iowa really good farm ground here. What would you do and you're desperate to farm?
Nicolas Lirio (01:14:52.355)
What would you do?
Start out by buying a brand new
King Ranch, King Ranch, or Laramie, whatever that
sponsor
is trim package out there. There is so many of those 70 to 80 year old farmers that don't have a child that wants to come back that they don't know what they're going to do. And I think they know that they probably know what's going to happen. It's going to go to that huge operator down the road.
Chase Brown (01:15:30.318)
that is going to gobble it up and does business three counties away and doesn't support that small community, right? And they are dying for that kid, young person to pull in the driveway and say, hey, I'm willing to work for you with you. You know, I'm willing to work with you, for you in exchange for a transition plan. And I honestly think those farmers are out there
You might have to look, they might be hard to get, but it goes back to that, you can't find labor. They would love to see, you know, they have a child that took the job in the big town and has no interest in coming back. And I think you'd be surprised how many guys would be willing to maybe work with a young person that is hungry for it.
They kind of like watching it, right? It reminds them of themselves. You know, here's this young guy that's just hungry. You know, if you are truly hungry and passionate about farming, boy, I think you'd be surprised how many guys are willing, willing to help you. cause I've had those thoughts, you know, I have a daughter, you know, I, who knows what's going to happen in, in 10, 15 years. She might marry a guy that wants to farm. She might move to the big city. There's going to be an opportunity for someone.
And I hate to see it go to those big guys that really don't need anymore. And so I think there are some people out there that would be willing to give a young person an opportunity. There's also guys who gonna say, off my place, you know? But you gotta be open-minded and you gotta be willing to put your nose down and work for it. And I think it'll pay off in the long run.
And I think that's a wonderful idea. And I'd say don't go in with those expectations either. Just go in worried about being a hard worker and the right day will come when you have those conversations of, what's this look like 15 years from now, you know, and have those conversations. But I think that is just an excellent, I mean, technically, that's what happened for me. I always wanted a farm. That wasn't going to happen anywhere else for me. Carol took me in under his wing and
Kent Boucher (01:17:45.24)
taught me how to do it and not that I own this farm but I don't need to. I'm happy to work here as an employee until I can't work anymore. And I get to do what I've always wanted to do because of finding the right person to learn from.
Check the ego at the end of the driveway, you know, and put your nose down and every day could be your last day. You know, be humble. Yeah, and you know, yeah, there is opportunity out there. Someone's going to have to farm it.
Yeah. That's part of the lifestyle.
Kent Boucher (01:18:17.996)
Yep, that's right.
Well, Chase, we had a really great time with you. mean, I told everyone here, we've talked for hours at this point, you know, and.
You're right Nick I love this guy. Let's get him back on.
different directions than I thought it would, you know? No, it was good.
Yeah
Nicolas Lirio (01:18:35.074)
Was there anything you
You better ask me your closing question. I'm asking it for so long. just remember every time I listen back to a party I Think I think it's one of my favorite parts of the podcast. Oh So at least do it for me forget about the listeners do it for me
I it, like it was the same.
Nicolas Lirio (01:18:47.214)
Okay, okay, all right.
Nicolas Lirio (01:18:51.406)
All right, well, before we do that, everyone, if you are looking for some cover crop seed, you're out in Illinois. Give them a call. What's called? Brown seed sales. I've worked with Chase. He is honest. He's good to work with. He's prompt and responsive. He needs to cover crops. He's a great dude. If you look for native seed, you know where to look. Huxley, native seeds dot com, the Prairie Farm dot com. We talked a lot about agriculture. I know the farmers out there. If we didn't hurt your feelings too much, I know you need natives for CSP.
brown seed sales
Kent Boucher (01:19:19.446)
And even if we did hurt your feelings, come on. Yeah, come on.
Give me a call. I've only been called once or someone really complained about the podcast and props to you You had the courage to do it. I think there's a lot of other people have been angry online and just Yell in the comments. So we appreciate all of you listening. So chase If you could snap your finger change one thing about the world make it as broad or specific as you want. What would you change?
man Yeah Wow you should have given that to me think about on the drive out here Yeah, we need to be nicer man People need to be nicer. I don't know how many times I'll bump into some of the gas station say good morning and Don't even get a response or you hold the door open for him. My favorite thing is
Doesn't have to be ag related.
Nicolas Lirio (01:19:53.646)
But it's be
Chase Brown (01:20:11.01)
I'll hold the door open, they walk out and they don't say anything and I'll say, you're welcome. As I walk in, you know, like just being, just be decent humans, you know, you don't know what someone's going through. everyone's fighting something. So let's just be nicer, you know,
If all of our securities were stripped away, all we'd have left is each other.
Right, right. And none of us are getting out of here alive, right? So let's just be decent humans, I think is if I could snap, snap my finger, know, political views, whatever, everyone has just gotten so hateful. I mean, to the point that I've tried to just get off social media, you know, just because it's so negative and it's contagious.
we're doing on this episode.
It's a time to be off social media, Chase.
Nicolas Lirio (01:21:02.377)
All the time is a great time to be.
And it's contagious. Being nice is contagious. And be positive. I don't know if that's what you're looking for.
I love that.
That's exactly what we're looking for. We really appreciate you. Obviously we really appreciate everyone listening today. Yeah, don't forget, just like chase, think a little bit outside of the box. We have to, otherwise no conservation, no real change, no systems will ever be toppled. All starts at a time.
One mind.
